EU Referendum - 23rd June - How will you vote?

[acer]

Just spotted this thread what's the EU

Said slowly, it's the noise you make, like I did this morning, when you see next doors cat with a mouthful of Mouse guts hanging from its mouth.

 

[Flood51]

Very good motacyclist!

However Flood51 hasn't mentioned which way they are voting.

pjm-84, thanks and I don't care which way they vote. But they do vote that is my point. Voting doesn't sit comfortably with remain voters. Plus having spent10 years of my life in the far east I respect the wisdom of the elderly. A concept that is alien here.

 

[Amarillo]

And of course the BBC is totally impartial!

Do you think that clip gives false or misleading information?

 

[GrannyJen]

pjm-84, thanks and I don't care which way they vote. But they do vote that is my point. Voting doesn't sit comfortably with remain voters. Plus having spent10 years of my life in the far east I respect the wisdom of the elderly. A concept that is alien here.

A highly laudable concept

 

[Amarillo]

pjm-84, thanks and I don't care which way they vote. But they do vote that is my point. Voting doesn't sit comfortably with remain voters.

My understanding is that the elderly are more likely to vote than the young.
https://plot.ly/~AlexSim992/47.png

 

[T6 CFO]

This short clip from the BBC neatly explains what we will be leaving if we vote to leave the EU.

Ok watched the clip. Reminds me of why people were in the gang at school. I never was so this clip had the opposite effect on me to the one intended.

 

[Amarillo]

this clip had the opposite effect on me to the one intended.

What was the BBC's intent in producing the clip? I had assumed the intent was to inform.

And in case you were referring to my intent in posting it here, I can say now that my intent was to counter Flood's "vitriol" claim with non-vitriolic evidence.

 

[T6 CFO]

What was the BBC's intent in producing the clip? I had assumed the intent was to inform.

And in case you were referring to my intent in posting it here, I can say now that my intent was to counter Flood's "vitriol" claim with non-vitriolic evidence.

I believe you are becoming rather to defensive of your position and considering everything as an attack on it or you. Anyone viewing that clip can clearly see that it is not just to inform. I gave my opinion of it. This is a debate and I am not taking sides.

Edit:

I am however coming to an opinion.

 

[hirsty]

I don't want to speak on Crispins behalf Mike, but I suspect it may be a frustration response as there's generally little of substance being countered & some low level trolling / passive agressive responses - though that seems to be part of a pattern here for some & therefore nothing to take at all personally.

One interesting point for me from the above BBC clip was that 300 million plus Europeans are administered by a civil service six times smaller than just that in the UK alone - we hear a lot about the costs, and whilst there's always room for improvement, it's an interesting set of hard numbers relative to the shock horror nonsense fed out by the Daily Mail and the Daily Express.

I was originally interested in this thread as there is substantial cumulative experience of travelling, living and working in 'continental' Europe amongst this community & particularly as I personally have no frame of reference pre-1973 - one of my fears of the whole referendum process is that we've come to take for granted so many of the benefits that have emerged since the 70s.

I also wanted to see which way it would go as to generalise heavily one aspect of the demographic here (German vehicles, interested in UK & Euro travel) also overlaps heavily with a flipside of upper-income 40/50/60 empty-nesters (perhaps Mail reading & generally more right-of-centre).

As always no-one has had their mind changed 'by what some bloke said on the internet' but I'm happy to have had my own prejudices reinforced by the lack of (to me) substantive argument outside of 'control of our own borders' and 'not wanting to get pushed around by Merkel', which remains to me both naive and / or borderline xenophobic.

All the things that are important to me (economy, environment, security) are best tackled at a regional level through cooperation & dialogue with our neighbours in the 21st century - both the UN and NATO have recently shown themselves to be ineffective in both Ukraine & Syria and I feel we'd be a cork bobbing along alone in the sea relative to the other significant world powers of EU, US, Russia & China if make a short sighted mistake.

I am sure however that whatever everyone decides for themselves the most important thing is to show up & vote on the day. I'll leave you to it, all the best.

 

[GrannyJen]

I don't want to speak on Crispins behalf Mike, but I suspect it may be a frustration response as there's generally little of substance being countered & some low level trolling / passive agressive responses - though that seems to be part of a pattern here for some & therefore nothing to take at all personally.

One interesting point for me from the above BBC clip was that 300 million plus Europeans are administered by a civil service six times smaller than just that in the UK alone - we hear a lot about the costs, and whilst there's always room for improvement, it's an interesting set of hard numbers relative to the shock horror nonsense fed out by the Daily Mail and the Daily Express.

I was originally interested in this thread as there is substantial cumulative experience of travelling, living and working in 'continental' Europe amongst this community & particularly as I personally have no frame of reference pre-1973 - one of my fears of the whole referendum process is that we've come to take for granted so many of the benefits that have emerged since the 70s.

I also wanted to see which way it would go as to generalise heavily one aspect of the demographic here (German vehicles, interested in UK & Euro travel) also overlaps heavily with a flipside of upper-income 40/50/60 empty-nesters (perhaps Mail reading & generally more right-of-centre).

As always no-one has had their mind changed 'by what some bloke said on the internet' but I'm happy to have had my own prejudices reinforced by the lack of (to me) substantive argument outside of 'control of our own borders' and 'not wanting to get pushed around by Merkel', which remains to me both naive and / or borderline xenophobic.

All the things that are important to me (economy, environment, security) are best tackled at a regional level through cooperation & dialogue with our neighbours in the 21st century - both the UN and NATO have recently shown themselves to be ineffective in both Ukraine & Syria and I feel we'd be a cork bobbing along alone in the sea relative to the other significant world powers of EU, US, Russia & China if make a short sighted mistake.

I am sure however that whatever everyone decides for themselves the most important thing is to show up & vote on the day. I'll leave you to it, all the best.

A similar response.

I was amazed at the low number of people employed in the "over-bloated, super heavyweight" EU Bureaucracy.

Again, policy agreed by elected heads of government of member states, economic policy by elected member state finance ministers, Britain has a tenth of the representation in the elected parliament. As a "floating voter" I feel a little more comforted that we are not being governed by an unelected dictatorship over which the UK has no control.

 

[Amarillo]

I suspect it may be a frustration response as there's generally little of substance being countered

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

I have tried to provide hard facts, e.g. GDP per capita growth of poorer EU countries v richer EU countries, and some fairly tough questioning of people's perception that EU migrants are putting a strain on the NHS and welfare. While I would not expect thanks from the 'out' campaigners, I was not expecting to be met with a charge of adding "vitriol" to the debate and not providing a "constructive argument".

Is it any wonder that my tone is defensive.

At the end of the day, this is all a matter of personal choice. But I would like it to be an informed personal choice.

Sadly our politicians aren't doing a very good job of providing us with hard facts. Wild assertions that house prices will tumble by 18% if we leave and that the EU has similar aims to Adolf Hitler do not help.

 

[T6 CFO]

Just recovering from my Gym session and very pleased to see the level of debate some great points and much to ponder. On the numbers I am not quite sure as experience has shown me that any argument based on statistics is usually flawed but interesting never the less.
The threat of House prices tumbling 18% may inadvertently encourage an out vote. Our obsession with wanting them to rise is perhaps a subject for the future.



Mike

 

[WelshGas]

Do you think that clip gives false or misleading information?

Heaven forbid. It is the BBC and it would be scrupulously fair to both sides. Wouldn't it????????

 

[T6 CFO]

So do I believe the BBC or this one or neither.
Neither I reckon!

There are others

http://www.junepress.com/PDF/Vol 13 No 22 - 5th September 2008.pdf


Mike

 

[T6 CFO]

So how many people have watched this. Our Saturday night viewing with a bottle of wine. French by the way.

 

[T6 CFO]

Getting into this now.

Just in case you wanted to know who your MEP was. I didn't know. Which is a worry.

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps/european_elections/results.html


This is the make up of the European Commission

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner

And this is our man on that Commisssion

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Hill,_Baron_Hill_of_Oareford

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Bramco]

Heaven forbid. It is the BBC and it would be scrupulously fair to both sides. Wouldn't it????????

Answer the question WG, don't air your prejudices. Do you think it gives false or misleading information? And if so what is false or misleading? That might help move the debate along rather than shooting the messenger.

 

[Keith Smith]

If you want to see bias just look at The Mail and The Express but oddly today The Mail on Sunday has a pro remain front page?

 

[T6 CFO]

Well in answer to the threads question I have made my decision and it is an unequivocal OUT!

This from a starting point of being open minded with a bias towards Remain has surprised me.

Good luck with your decisions if you are still on the fence. Back to Cali's for me.


Mike

 

[DavidofHook]

You've taken a single example of someone's humanity and generosity and used it as evidence for a rather hysterical xenophobic argument that them fostering children who aren't British somehow costs YOU money. I think this is broken thinking. Please tell us exactly how much money this costs the UK tax payer.


So what? That money went in to a private individual's pocket and they haven't paid in to the local healthcare system. If your argument was logical then you would accept the UK taking 1.3m pensioners from Europe.


I'm not sure this is true and there's no point even checking as this isn't in any way an argument to vote out of the EU. Why not write a letter to Jeremy Hunt, or your MP telling them to sort it out?

Fred,
I have come back after making it rain by washing the Cali.!
Of course money from the sale of property went into private hands. What is wrong with that? It is just the same as when you buy your Cali, the money goes to Germany to bolster their economy, provide work and make them more prosperous. Except people moving to say Spain are paying in 100's of 1000's of Euros and that is good for Spain. That is how the market economy works

Please leave off about me being xenophobic about fostering, just read my posts and you will see that you are talking emotional rubbish.

 

[WelshGas]

Answer the question WG, don't air your prejudices. Do you think it gives false or misleading information? And if so what is false or misleading? That might help move the debate along rather than shooting the messenger.

Heaven forbid.
Government decides the BBC Charter.
BBC awaits Charter Renewal with favourable terms.
Government favours remaining in EU
BBC gives equal, un-bias coverage to both the Remain and Exit Groups.
The trouble is, and no doubt you and others will disagree, the BBC also reports the views of the Government and Labour as well and we know where they stand.
Just my own prejudicial view.
Also, others seem to be condemning the stance taken by the Express and Mail, and all the other publications are totally un-biased, aren't they?

 

[Amarillo]

Heaven forbid.

I think that Branco was referring to the clip I posted. What false or misleading information was the BBC giving in that particular clip?

 

[WelshGas]

I think that Branco was referring to the clip I posted. What false or misleading information was the BBC giving in that particular clip?

I'm sure none of the information was inaccurate or false, but No mention of the Euro bail outs, No mention of the border closures and suspension of free travel by some countries, No mention of the sweetners given to Turkey to control the people trafficking, No mention of the failure of the EU to produce fully audited accounts, No mention of the Unemployment levels in some countries being excessive .
Complete glossing over of details regarding a European Defence Force, European Embassies etc, nor the proposed future plans for enlargement of the EU.
If you are going to put out un-biased propaganda then it should be complete, warts and all. This is not.

 

[SqueakyWheel]

I'm sure none of the information was inaccurate or false, but No mention of .....

... because, as it says in the video's description:

The BBC's Europe correspondent Damian Grammaticas explains the different institutions within the EU, how they work and what they control.​

..but No mention of the Euro bail outs

That would be, for example here:

Bailout talks make 'progress'
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36114491​

...No mention of the border closures and suspension of free travel by some countries

Schengen: Controversial EU free movement deal explained
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13194723​

..., No mention of the sweetners given to Turkey to control the people trafficking

What could Turkey-EU deal mean for countries involved?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35840813​

..., No mention of the failure of the EU to produce fully audited accounts

EU lost nearly 1bn euros from budget
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32977814​

and I could go on, but the point being that everything you mention has been written about in the past few months by the BBC. A simple search will find them. To claim that the BBC is biased because this one video attempts to explain the institutions of the EU and doesn't mention the multitude of other newsworthy EU subjects in the same 2.5 minute video doesn't really stand up.

 

[sbmcd]

Think the bookies have a handle on the this:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e4f4cb5c-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15.html#axzz49MeFJjfM