EU Referendum - 23rd June - How will you vote?

[hirsty]

And exactly why are they unaccompanied?

We're assuming you've seen some TV news in the last three-years?

All the referendum discussions I've heard / watched / participated in recently have included all the cliches about 'freedom from faceless bureaucrats' & 'making our own democratic decisions' cobblers, but I've realised when it comes down to it there's a disturbing undercurrent of xenophobia underpinning every exit argument I've heard - some people are just more embarrassed about it than others.

I'll be sticking to the threads about carpets & fridges from here I think - thanks Fred & Crispin for raising some interesting points.

 

[Amarillo]

And exactly why are they unaccompanied?

I am shocked at this question.

Many cities in Syria are a war zone, and, to make matters worse, a few cities have been overtaken by Islamic extremists. People, including children, are fleeing their homes. Some of these children will be orphans, others will have simply become separated from their families in the mayhem, and others will have fled of their own volition in the hope of gaining an education.

What ever the reason, they are children deserving of love and care.

Of course, there may be a suspicion that a few are being used as Trojan horses for their families to later gain access to the EU under Article 9 on the UN convention on the rights of the child. A suspicion of this should not compromise our humanity.

 

[Amarillo]

I'll be sticking to the threads about carpets & fridges from here I think - thanks Fred & Crispin for raising some interesting points.

I have disagreed with your post. we need people to challenge misconceptions.

 

[DavidofHook]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here David. Do you feel like you can extrapolate an argument from this one piece of information? If so, what is that?

It's simple Fred, firstly I posted it for information because I thought that the Forum would be as surprised to hear about it as I was.
Secondly my point was that, if (and I did say if) this applies elsewhere in the UK then this is another area where the right to reside (not Schengen) has put pressure on local services.
I am not sure if this an argument or a point of information but surely it was never intended that we should be fostering children from other EU countries to this extent. Or was it?

 

[DavidofHook]

OK. So in a Europe that has, as a key principle, freedom to live and work in any member state, our welfare system looks after some people of other nationalities. Do you think Spain, France, Italy and other countries may feel similarly when, for many years we have been exporting mainly elderly people to their countries? I suspect health and social welfare burdens from UK emigrants are significant in those countries.

This is a misconception. Most retired people who go to Spain and France etc usually spend thousands of euros on a property when they arrive thus benefiting the host country. They also bring their income which is spent in the host country.
Clearly there is a bigger use of health services but these countries are entitled to claim back that cost from the originating country. When you arrive at hospital there they, quite rightly, take all your details so that they can do so. In the UK we have never done that which is down to a failing in the NHS and not the EU.
We do look after people of other nationalities and alone in developed world, fail to get them to pay for the service even when they offer. Financial madness but this is off topic so I am not going to go there.

 

[hirsty]

Wow.

Wouldn't you say that it's more down to the individual foster family - an already selfless & generous vocation - than an elaborate Brussels based conspiracy to flood the Home Counties with Baltic children? Will these "unelected bureaucrats stop at nothing" until every British home has two each? - give me strength ...

Freedom of movement, goods & services has multiple dimensions to it and no doubt a raft of unintended consequences, but much of it is entirely predictable and more down to the choices / priorities / effectiveness of successive British governments at both local & national levels to put plans and capacity in place.

 

[DavidofHook]

Wow.

Wouldn't you say that it's more down to the individual foster family - an already selfless & generous vocation - than an elaborate Brussels based conspiracy to flood the Home Counties with Baltic children? Will these "unelected bureaucrats stop at nothing" until every British home has two each? - give me strength ...

Freedom of movement, goods & services has multiple dimensions to it and no doubt a raft of unintended consequences, but much of it is entirely predictable and more down to the choices / priorities / effectiveness of successive British governments at both local & national levels to put plans and capacity in place.

The result of which has been this huge pressure on services as I said.

I was given to understand that it is not actually down to the fosterers who they get necessarily. Fostering is difficult enough,but when the children are not in their own country it can create even bigger problems.

 

[Amarillo]

It's simple Fred, firstly I posted it for information because I thought that the Forum would be as surprised to hear about it as I was.

I had assumed that the foster children were either British born of Lithuanian and Polish descent or children who had come to the UK with their Lithuanian and Polish parents, and for whatever reason, the parents were no longer able to adequately care for the child.

Taking a child from Lithuania or Poland and fostering them in the UK would a very exceptional circumstance, although relatively common when the atrocity of the Romanian orphanages came to light in October 1990.

 

[Flood51]

I wouldn't disagree with the above. That to me is not the question. The question is would the UK (not me individually) be better in or out of Europe.

Pjm-84 There are no guarantees in life, you have to weigh up the arguments and go with the head. Everyone that wants to vote remain thinks it's not going to get any worse. They are wrong IMHO it's going to get much worse just look at their track record in making decisions since 2008. Appalling even when compared to our sorry bunch of useless politicians. I am voting out not for me, as I said before markets don't like change and it will wipe at least £100k off my SIPP, but I don't want to leave this mess for my Grandchildren to sort out. Definitely not. Vote remain and leave it to the kids is not something I believe in.

 

[hirsty]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here David. Do you feel like you can extrapolate an argument from this one piece of information? If so, what is that?

I'm still not clear, as per Fred's post also, how this relates to the upcoming referendum?

You favour exiting the EU as the benefits of continued membership are outweighed by the strain on our national resources of anecdotal foster children foisted upon us? Or is it 'because they are foreign' as with the above Syrian orphans?

Is there any chance - however small - that a minor adjustment in our democratically elected British government policy could divert some of our considerable national resources into adequate social care to provide a basic safety net for those that need it?

 

[Flood51]

Ask the young unemployed in Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece what they think of the EU's management skills. Of course it's great if your living in Notting Hill and want to hire a Nanny.

 

[hirsty]

I am voting out not for me, as I said before markets don't like change and it will wipe at least £100k off my SIPP, but I don't want to leave this mess for my Grandchildren to sort out. Definitely not. Vote remain and leave it to the kids is not something I believe in.

By all means do what you need to do, but please don't say you're going to vote out for the kids.

Overwhelmingly the younger you are the more international your outlook is - national borders mean a lot less to those raised with multi-lingual YouTube, compulsory language lessons, exposure to far more European culture than any previous generation, far flung Facebook friends & cheap international flights. By contrast my late grandmother wouldn't even accept a ride in my Dads Toyota, we've come a long way in two or three generations.

If we exit now it'll be a whole lot harder to get back in when your grandchildren are making the decisions & even if you're right and it all goes to the dogs there's no reason there couldn't be another in/out referendum in 2030.

 

[Flood51]

By all means do what you need to do, but please don't say you're going to vote out for the kids.

Overwhelmingly the younger you are the more international your outlook is - national borders mean a lot less to those raised with multi-lingual YouTube, compulsory language lessons, exposure to far more European culture than any previous generation, far flung Facebook friends & cheap international flights. By contrast my late grandmother wouldn't even accept a ride in my Dads Toyota, we've come a long way in two or three generations.

If we exit now it'll be a whole lot harder to get back in when your grandchildren are making the decisions & even if you're right and it all goes to the dogs there's no reason there couldn't be another in/out referendum in 2030.

 

[Flood51]

Hirsty actually I am voting out for the kids and it has nothing to do with me being not international like the kids. Since I was 21 I have worked abroad, I have worked in an Oil Service Company that hires from every nationality and all three genders and promotes them to board level. I love diversity I am not afraid of it. I brought my children up in three different countries, and we all probably have a greater understanding of the different cultures than most. I have no problem with the current immigrations issues that seem to drive most of the leave people. Please don't put me in some box for your own convenience. You vote how you want to but my kids are important to me so I analyse the facts and vote accordingly. They will be better off out of the EU it is crystal clear to me. Anyway I'll sign off this debate now.

 

[Amarillo]

Ask the young unemployed in Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece what they think of the EU's management skills.

If I did, I am sure the vast majority would blame their own government rather than the EU. The EU is, of course, a convenient scapegoat.

 

[pjm-84]

I employ an Spanish lady. She very much supports the EU and her family supports that view. They are struggling to understand the reason why people in the UK would want to vote out.

Sometimes explaining the English nature can be difficult as poor "Johnny Foreigner" doesn't quite understand our ways or our nature. (Still she probably thinks that I'm tad crazy as I'm so non PC in the office)

 

[DavidofHook]

I'm still not clear, as per Fred's post also, how this relates to the upcoming referendum?

You favour exiting the EU as the benefits of continued membership are outweighed by the strain on our national resources of anecdotal foster children foisted upon us? Or is it 'because they are foreign' as with the above Syrian orphans?

Is there any chance - however small - that a minor adjustment in our democratically elected British government policy could divert some of our considerable national resources into adequate social care to provide a basic safety net for those that need it?

Hirsty,
The fostering information is NOT anecdotal. And I said nothing about being foisted on us, you did.
And as you sneer my attitude to foreigners that is not what i said or why I said it.
As a matter of record I have one Irish daughter in law, one daughter in law who is half Maltese, my father in law was Welsh and I m one quarter Irish. I can go on within my family but won't. Please can we keep this civil and to the point. Play the subject not the man.
And, to repeat, I mention the fostering because one of the effects of the EU is that we have our public services under pressure which is inevitable when you have no control over the numbers that can enter the country. It is all down to control and sovereignty.
Regarding putting more money into Social care, your tax allocation letter will tell you that 45% of your tax already goes on Welfare and Health so i am unclear how much more you expect to spend and where you will get it from? ( Sorry, a bit off topic but you did raise it)

 

[WelshGas]

Welshgas I remember from another post that you worked in the NHS for 40+ years and are fiercely against the dismantling and commercialisation of the NHS. But you seem to be advancing an argument here that all pensioners (and non-nationals?) must have insurance to cover their healthcare costs, even if they have paid NI contributions. I see three issues with this approach:

• Citizens are double charged - they pay via NI and also via private insurance
• The principle of the NHS is that it is free at the point of use. This would no longer apply, and those who couldn't pay would be denied critical care
• Why would you stop at pensioners? Why not charge everyone for healthcare?

They're orphan refugees fleeing civil war. They didn't make the choice to become an orphan or to live in a country under war. It's us in the UK, US, France and Russia who are bombing their country (including hospitals and refugee camps), killing civilians (and profiting from it).

European countries do not pay for UK citizens health care. We do, because all costs are claimed back from the NHS or UK government.

Unaccompanied children in Refugee Camps are orphans and should be helped. Unaccompanied in an European country then questions need to be asked .

 

[DavidofHook]

I had assumed that the foster children were either British born of Lithuanian and Polish descent or children who had come to the UK with their Lithuanian and Polish parents, and for whatever reason, the parents were no longer able to adequately care for the child.

Taking a child from Lithuania or Poland and fostering them in the UK would a very exceptional circumstance, although relatively common when the atrocity of the Romanian orphanages came to light in October 1990.

Yes, my understanding is that these are Lithuanian or Polish children who reside here in the UK. I would be very surprised if they had been taken from their home country. I don't think that they are British born.

 

[Amarillo]

Yes, my understanding is that these are Lithuanian or Polish children who reside here in the UK. I would be very surprised if they had been taken from their home country. I don't think that they are British born.

Lithuania joined the EU in 2004. Shortly afterwards many migrant workers moved west, some were trafficked women, and rarely trafficked children, promised lucrative jobs, who ended up working for years for little pay to repay their travel costs. Under such a circumstance it should be of little surprise that some women have been unable to adequately care for their children, who have subsequently been taken into the care of the local authority.

Within the UK, the problem of gang masters and Lithuanian workers is most prevalent in rural East Anglia.

There is further information about Lithuanian trafficking here.

 

[Amarillo]

Regarding putting more money into Social care, your tax allocation letter will tell you that 45% of your tax already goes on Welfare and Health

Would you care to guess what proportion of that 45% goes on the welfare and health of EU nationals other than UK nationals. And further, would you care to guess if the 45% figure would rise or fall if all EU nationals, other than UK nationals, where somehow deported tomorrow?

My guess to the first question is a very small proportion.

My guess to the second question is rise.

 

[DavidofHook]

Lithuania joined the EU in 2004. Shortly afterwards many migrant workers moved west, some were trafficked women, and rarely trafficked children, promised lucrative jobs, who ended up working for years for little pay to repay their travel costs. Under such a circumstance it should be of little surprise that some women have been unable to adequately care for their children, who have subsequently been taken into the care of the local authority.

Within the UK, the problem of gang masters and Lithuanian workers is most prevalent in rural East Anglia.

There is further information about Lithuanian trafficking here.

Yes, not good. Modern day slavery effectively/

 

[DavidofHook]

Would you care to guess what proportion of that 45% goes on the welfare and health of EU nationals other than UK nationals. And further, would you care to guess if the 45% figure would rise or fall if all EU nationals, other than UK nationals, where somehow deported tomorrow?

My guess to the first question is a very small proportion.

My guess to the second question is rise.

I have never even considered such a question as i was responding to Hirsty who wanted more money spent in this area.
Clearly there has been a rise in the use of ,say, A&E departments probably because those using them have no GP but, given that to my knowledge, most EU migrants work, pay taxes and are generally quite young my answers would be the same as yours

 

[fred]

It's simple Fred, firstly I posted it for information because I thought that the Forum would be as surprised to hear about it as I was.
Secondly my point was that, if (and I did say if) this applies elsewhere in the UK then this is another area where the right to reside (not Schengen) has put pressure on local services.
I am not sure if this an argument or a point of information but surely it was never intended that we should be fostering children from other EU countries to this extent. Or was it?

You've taken a single example of someone's humanity and generosity and used it as evidence for a rather hysterical xenophobic argument that them fostering children who aren't British somehow costs YOU money. I think this is broken thinking. Please tell us exactly how much money this costs the UK tax payer.

This is a misconception. Most retired people who go to Spain and France etc usually spend thousands of euros on a property when they arrive thus benefiting the host country. They also bring their income which is spent in the host country.

So what? That money went in to a private individual's pocket and they haven't paid in to the local healthcare system. If your argument was logical then you would accept the UK taking 1.3m pensioners from Europe.

Clearly there is a bigger use of health services but these countries are entitled to claim back that cost from the originating country. When you arrive at hospital there they, quite rightly, take all your details so that they can do so. In the UK we have never done that which is down to a failing in the NHS and not the EU.
We do look after people of other nationalities and alone in developed world, fail to get them to pay for the service even when they offer. Financial madness but this is off topic so I am not going to go there.

I'm not sure this is true and there's no point even checking as this isn't in any way an argument to vote out of the EU. Why not write a letter to Jeremy Hunt, or your MP telling them to sort it out?

 

[Amarillo]

Clearly there has been a rise in the use of ,say, A&E departments probably because those using them have no GP but, given that to my knowledge, most EU migrants work, pay taxes and are generally quite young my answers would be the same as yours

I am finding this quite heartening:
- It is quite common to find EU and other migrants staffing our health service, at all levels.
- EU migrants help pay for our health service through taxes.
- It is likely that EU migrants contribute more to our health service than UK born nationals.

A reasonable conclusion is that, in general, the NHS would be worse off without EU migrants.