Family of 10 turn down 5 bedroom house

[WelshGas]

If he is a French Citizen then why does he not study in France and live in France with his large family?

Nothing whatsoever to do with the Bursary he gets while " studying " or the Child Benefit and Housing Benefit paid in the Uk + no doubt other benefits that French citizens do not have in France.

We have 5 children and the only " Benefit " we had was the Universal Child Benefit available to all and we didn't start our family until able to provide for them. Nowadays it seems having children is a right, whether you can afford to support them or not and that is just plain wrong.

 

[AlanH99]

None of the above...some of us simply don't hold the same level of respect for the source material as you do.

For source material I read a lot of articles from many newspapers. What I found was: Express, Mail, Mirror, LutonToday, onlineNigeria etc., did report it, Guardian, Telegraph etc., did not. So, if you choose your respected sources and don't look at others, you'll find your news had been chosen for you.

With the internet today it is a simple job of finding out about such news items. Amongst the results of my Google search was the fact that Arnold was a company director for a few days in 2012. That seemed odd but might have a reasonable explanation. I only mention it to show that I didn't just blindly read an article from one source.

Tell me, what did your news sources tell you about it? Or do they only report how benefits are being cut for the deserving poor and keep schtum if something doesn't fit their political agenda? Just like all newspapers.

It might have been reported to cause a fuss, but the reports didn't contain any lies, and that is what is important.

 

[AlanH99]

"If Mr Sube is entitled to this for his family, why would it be wrong for him to ask for this for his family?"

Using the logic of: if you're entitled to it, you should take it, sounds no different to me to, screw the system for all you can get.

 

[Amarillo]

Arnold was a company director for a few days in 2012. That seemed odd but might have a reasonable explanation.

I noted that also, GMA 001 Limited has an extraordinary number of directors: 1408 in six years.

It might have been reported to cause a fuss, but the reports didn't contain any lies, and that is what is important.

It may not contain any lies, but neither does it contain key facts, such as entitlements.

 

[Amarillo]

"If Mr Sube is entitled to this for his family, why would it be wrong for him to ask for this for his family?"

Using the logic of: if you're entitled to it, you should take it, sounds no different to me to, screw the system for all you can get.

I know that people do forgo their unemployment benefits or child allowance, but that does not imply that it is wrong for others to claim for them.

I know that I do not claim all my deductible expenses in my tax return. Would it be wrong of me if I did? I'm probably a mug for not claiming them all, and not a parasite if I do claim them all.

I see no reason why I should expect someone at the opposite end of the privilege spectrum from me to forgo entitlements for their family. If entitlements are wrong, direct your anger towards that, not the individual making the claim.

 

[LowMan]

What I found was: Express, Mail, Mirror, LutonToday, onlineNigeria etc., did report it, Guardian, Telegraph etc., did not.

Spooky don't you think!

 

[Kirk]

OK if I had ten kids and went to live in Paris and then went to the governement for help and demanded a 6 bedroom house, what would they give me? Sweet FA! I think they would possibly laugh me out the door!

If I ended up in the French press, what would all the French readers say? SEND HIM BACK TO THE UK

 

[AlanH99]

I know that people do forgo their unemployment benefits or child allowance, but that does not imply that it is wrong for others to claim for them.

I know that I do not claim all my deductible expenses in my tax return. Would it be wrong of me if I did? I'm probably a mug for not claiming them all, and not a parasite if I do claim them all.

I see no reason why I should expect someone at the opposite end of the privilege spectrum from me to forgo entitlements for their family. If entitlements are wrong, direct your anger towards that, not the individual making the claim.

I think in this case it is the fact that so many of the entitlements come not from falling on hard times but from Arnold taking actions that meant he became entitled. He chose to have so many children and wants more, he chose to take a study course, he chose to leave his job in France to study in the UK, he chose to have one of the bedrooms as his office.

Claiming benefits should be a safety net, not a career choice.

Claiming deductible expenses is a world away from what Arnold is doing. One is not paying a tax you don't have to pay. The other is saying give me a six bedroom house and feed me and my eight children because I've decided to do three years of study. And by the way, pay for my course. .

As for opposite end of the privilege spectrum, he is costing the UK £100,000 a year. I think he's getting enough privileges

 

[LowMan]

From Nick Davies......

"Where once journalists were active gatherers of news, now they have generally become mere passive processors of unchecked, second-hand material, much of it contrived by PR to serve some political or commercial interest. Not journalists, but churnalists. An industry whose primary task is to filter out falsehood has become so vulnerable to manipulation that it is now involved in the mass production of falsehood, distortion and propaganda."

 

[aileron346]

Yes... Certainly there's a group of particularly nasty tabloids that seem hell bent on creating community division.


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[Amarillo]

As for opposite end of the privilege spectrum, he is costing the UK £100,000 a year. I think he's getting enough privileges

If your £100,000 figure is correct, by my calculation, it would be £10,000 per person. I am so far detached from the lives of people like Mr Sube's family that I would not know if that is a reasonable figure for the annual living cost of one person or not.

 

[AlanH99]

Spooky don't you think!

Not really. It was interesting to find that so many newspapers around the world reported it but not our 'Quality' press.

They seem to want to say: We are so virtuous we don't even report on people who appear to be taking disproportionate amounts out of the benefits system.

 

[T6 CFO]

I know that people do forgo their unemployment benefits or child allowance, but that does not imply that it is wrong for others to claim for them.

I know that I do not claim all my deductible expenses in my tax return. Would it be wrong of me if I did? I'm probably a mug for not claiming them all, and not a parasite if I do claim them all.

I see no reason why I should expect someone at the opposite end of the privilege spectrum from me to forgo entitlements for their family. If entitlements are wrong, direct your anger towards that, not the individual making the claim.

I'm sorry but the welfare system was not meant to be preyed upon. The system is not perfect and there will always be loopholes and cracks in the system. If someone falls through a crack they should have the sympathy of us all and a method devised to help them. Where there are loopholes and the system is exploited then they should be held to account and a method found to prevent them.
Just saying "I'm entitled" is not enough. There is something called personal responsibility.




Mike

 

[GrannyJen]

My Mum was born during the general strike. My grandad and his sons, 7 uncles to me, were miners. I was brought up on tales of bodies broken down the pit and being rendered unemployable, and as the house often belonged to the pit so also rendered homeless. My Grandad was lucky, his body was broken by the pit but he was given a surface job and called a surface miner so he kept what pitiful benefits he had.

They came from Sunderland, they took part in the Jarrow marches, they were the conscience that prompted this great country of ours to say never again, we will have that social safety net so that no one will ever again be rendered unemployable by giving service to their employer, no one will ever have to walk barefoot to protest against starvation, that no one will ever have to die simply because they could not afford a shilling to see the doctor.

I say great country. I have travelled the world and seen great poverty, even in that most first world of countries, the USA. We launchd that safety net when the country was broke, we launched it through sacrifice of many,the NHS is the most precious social commodity that this country has and it is why I think that my country is a great one.

The welfare system was never intended to be a social choice. It was intended to be, literally, a life-saver when all else failed. I despair when I read that it is being treated as just that, a social choice. I raised my children without any hand outs despite at one time we were virtually destitute. We did not have more children because we simply could not afford to.

I do not want to comment on the gentleman in question or the story. I will not allow Mr Dacre or Mr Murdoch to profit by peddling fear, hatred and prejudice at the expense of my blood pressure. I will say this, at some time in the future our welfare and health system must be dragged back to it's roots or it will become unaffordable and cease to exist in any functional form.

 

[Black Sheep]

Hello Victor - you mentioned in your post that started this discussion that our NHS is in crisis. I think it is too - but I don't believe this crisis is caused by one larger than average family in Luton.

 

[AlanH99]

From Nick Davies......

"Where once journalists were active gatherers of news, now they have generally become mere passive processors of unchecked, second-hand material, much of it contrived by PR to serve some political or commercial interest. Not journalists, but churnalists. An industry whose primary task is to filter out falsehood has become so vulnerable to manipulation that it is now involved in the mass production of falsehood, distortion and propaganda."

I agree, our press is rubbish and often used for propaganda. But going back to Arnold and his family: where is the falsehood and distortion? Does he not have eight children? Has he not turned down a five bedroom house? Has he not cost £100,000 in rent, benefits, course fees etc, so far?
This deflection of criticism toward the messenger is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

 

[AlanH99]

Why did the Daily Mail 'specifically' choose this family?

Just playing the race card?

It wouldn't make any difference to me if he were British, he's still someone who is claiming an incredible amount of money because of choices he made, not someone who has fallen on hard times and needs a hand to get back on his feet. (mixed metaphors I know)

When the story arrived on the editor's desk, should he/she have said: we are not printing this, he's black or French or an immigrant or all three?

Keith McDonald doesn't sound foreign (unless you count Scotland as foreign) but he was the subject of a similar news item about his lifestyle and how much it had cost the British taxpayer.

Stop seeing racism everywhere otherwise we end up with a press that can only criticise British people.

 

[Digger]

My Mum was born during the general strike. My grandad and his sons, 7 uncles to me, were miners. I was brought up on tales of bodies broken down the pit and being rendered unemployable, and as the house often belonged to the pit so also rendered homeless. My Grandad was lucky, his body was broken by the pit but he was given a surface job and called a surface miner so he kept what pitiful benefits he had.

They came from Sunderland, they took part in the Jarrow marches, they were the conscience that prompted this great country of ours to say never again, we will have that social safety net so that no one will ever again be rendered unemployable by giving service to their employer, no one will ever have to walk barefoot to protest against starvation, that no one will ever have to die simply because they could not afford a shilling to see the doctor.

I say great country. I have travelled the world and seen great poverty, even in that most first world of countries, the USA. We launchd that safety net when the country was broke, we launched it through sacrifice of many,the NHS is the most precious social commodity that this country has and it is why I think that my country is a great one.

The welfare system was never intended to be a social choice. It was intended to be, literally, a life-saver when all else failed. I despair when I read that it is being treated as just that, a social choice. I raised my children without any hand outs despite at one time we were virtually destitute. We did not have more children because we simply could not afford to.

I do not want to comment on the gentleman in question or the story. I will not allow Mr Dacre or Mr Murdoch to profit by peddling fear, hatred and prejudice at the expense of my blood pressure. I will say this, at some time in the future our welfare and health system must be dragged back to it's roots or it will become unaffordable and cease to exist in any functional form.

GJ is absolutely correct. My friends in Europe blame our welfare system for being too generous. I say we need to support those less fortunate but there has to be a limit or the system will collapse.

 

[LowMan]

I agree, our press is rubbish and often used for propaganda. But going back to Arnold and his family: where is the falsehood and distortion? Does he not have eight children? Has he not turned down a five bedroom house? Has he not cost £100,000 in rent, benefits, course fees etc, so far?
This deflection of criticism toward the messenger is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

To be honest, from your comments, I think you're answering your own questions. I'm genuinely sorry. I have no answer as to why this story enrages you, but not me. But based on my suspicion of the agenda behind it, I do believe it to be working.

 

[aileron346]

Yup. I broadly agree with GJ too. Both the social system and the NHS may, in some respects be pandering to poor behaviour though I do think that is deflecting from the real cause of their crisis - which is a clear political choice to run those services down for a privatisation ideology.
I don't think pointing out the stirring right-wing press is deflection though...true or not, they do whip up these stories out of context for their own commercial or political agenda. Quite incredible the number of people who really do think that the current NHS failing is due to immigration.


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[AlanH99]

To be honest, from your comments, I think you're answering your own questions. I'm genuinely sorry. I have no answer as to why this story enrages you, but not me. But based on my suspicion of the agenda behind it, I do believe it to be working.

So there is no falsehood and distortion? It seemed from your post you were implying there was.

I expect many people do a quick, "What if everyone did that?" mental assessment when deciding whether something like this is reasonable. In this case, if everyone did what Arnold is doing the benefits system would break and other deserving cases would have to go without.

I think of benefits as a giant insurance scheme where you pay in when you can and take out when you need. Arnold is like a crash for cash driver. He's crashed his people carrier into the UK benefits system and now he's claiming off our insurance for all the passengers, without ever paying a premium.

I think that's what annoys me about this. Enrages is a little too strong.

 

[LowMan]

So there is no falsehood and distortion? It seemed from your post you were implying there was.

Didn't say there was, didn't say there wasn't. As I've stated in previous posts, the story is designed to produce the effect, and I reckon elements of this thread demonstrate it's a successful formula.

You get annoyed at the guy, I get annoyed at the media. So I guess ultimately, the media win, we're both annoyed, albeit at different subjects!

 

[Ambler]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-37305713

Reported 2 days before the Mirror article.
I assume picked up from the local paper which reported it the day before.

 

[Kano]

I'm afraid the race card has been played Alan, though I disagree with you as to whom has played it.

 

[GrannyJen]

Interesting that the council adopts the stance "we offered you help, you have refused, try the private sector"....

how about "we made you an appointment, without notice or good reason you never turned up, BUPA is just down the road"...... I wonder how much more time we would have available in our GP surgeries or hospital clinics.