Family of 10 turn down 5 bedroom house

[Amarillo]

Claiming deductible expenses is a world away from what Arnold is doing.

No it is not. Tax and benefits are at different ends of the same spectrum. Some are net contributors, and some are net beneficiaries.

Tax dodgers and benefit cheats are the same - they deprive the system of resources.

By the same token, people who overpay their tax and those who under claim their benefits are the same - they inflate the system with resources.


Think of tax avoidance and tax evasion.

It is tax avoidance to put spare income into an ISA to avoid paying tax on interest. It is perfectly legal and morally acceptable. It is tax evasion to hide the profits from the sale of a foreign holiday home from the taxman. It is illegal and morally unacceptable.

Now think of benefit cheats and benefit claimants.

It is being a benefit cheat if you claim unemployment benefits while working for cash as a gardener. It is illegal and morally unacceptable. It is being a benefit claimant if you claim housing benefit you are entitled to. It is legal and morally acceptable.


For whatever reason, it appears that Mr Sube's family is entitled to the benefits he claims for himself and his family. If that is the case, it is legal and morally acceptable for him to claim those entitlements.

If you think that it is wrong that Mr Sube is entitled to claim benefits for his family, any anger directed at Mr Sube is misplaced. Your anger should be directed elsewhere.

 

[AlanH99]

I'm afraid the race card has been played Alan, though I disagree with you as to whom has played it.

Keith McDonald
Dawn Cain
Arnold Sube

All three are newspaper reports on people who cost the UK a disproportionate amount of money. It would show an element of racial prejudice if Keith and Dawn were reported but Arnold was not.

 

[SprintGT]

Its probably not the house that he didn't like, its the thought of living in Luton

(I'm allowed to say that, I live there, & its not as bad as its made out, at least theres the M1 and the airport to get out quickly)

.

Luton is my home town (but I am not asking for sympathy) and in my experience Luton airport is certainly not an avenue of departure that I would use if I wanted to get out quickly. lol

 

[AlanH99]

For whatever reason, it appears that Mr Sube's family is entitled to the benefits he claims for himself and his family. If that is the case, it is legal and morally acceptable for him to claim those entitlements.

Legality is national, morality is personal. Your morals allow someone to create a situation where they take from other contributors an inordinate amount of money, mine don't.

Tell me, if someone lent you money on trust, would you not pay it back because legally you can keep it? Or would your morals kick in and you would pay it back because you should? I suspect the latter is the case.

 

[Amarillo]

Legality is national, morality is personal. Your morals allow someone to create a situation where they take from other contributors an inordinate amount of money, mine don't.

That's nonsense.

If the rules allow someone to take an inordinate amount of money, and I think that is unreasonable, I direct my anger to the rule makers, not the rule follower.

Consider a newspaper stand. It has the message "FREE newspapers, help yourself." Somebody comes along, helps themselves, and takes the lot. When challenged the person says I need the paper to light my fire at home. Has that person done wrong, of is the message wrong?

 

[T6 CFO]

That's nonsense.

If the rules allow someone to take an inordinate amount of money, and I think that is unreasonable, I direct my anger to the rule makers, not the rule follower.

Consider a newspaper stand. It has the message "FREE newspapers, help yourself." Somebody comes along, helps themselves, and takes the lot. When challenged the person says I need the paper to light my fire at home. Has that person done wrong, of is the message wrong?

I find your logic very strange.
You seem to be saying that anything is fine as long as it is within the rules no matter how wrong.



Mike

 

[GrannyJen]

For once I actually agree with Tom.

Us Brits are not very good at taking responsibility for ourselves.

The fault is not with the bloke with dozens of kids, the fault is with politicians who only think to the next election and looking ever so nice, being ever so terribly PC and offering promises of handouts that in the long term are unaffordable, wide open to abuse and encourages economic immigration into the country.

How nice for the politicians to have anger directed at the individual, ad in this case, and not at themselves.

 

[Amarillo]

I find your logic very strange.
You seem to be saying that anything is fine as long as it is within the rules no matter how wrong.

No, that's not what I am saying.

What I am saying is that if you perceive something to be wrong, but it is within the rules, you should direct your anger towards the rules.

Ian Cameron, the former Prime Minister's late father, set up a company, Blairmore Holdings Inc, to avoid UK tax. What he did was perfectly legal. If you think it was wrong, your anger should be directed to the rules which make it legal, not to the late Ian Cameron.

 

[Annik]

I think you are just assuming that our anger is all against Mr Sube?

 

[AlanH99]

That's nonsense.

If the rules allow someone to take an inordinate amount of money, and I think that is unreasonable, I direct my anger to the rule makers, not the rule follower.

I'd never thought of someone who doesn't exploit the benefits system for as much as they can get as not following the rules.

So, back to the example of someone lending you money on trust; if the lender hasn't got a legally binding contract with you, you would keep the money? After all, the rules allow it.

As for directing my annoyance to the rule makers and not the exploiter of the rules; why can't I give some to each?

 

[Amarillo]

As for directing my annoyance to the rule makers and not the exploiter of the rules; why can't I give some to each?

You can do as you like. What I am saying is anger directed towards Mr Sube is misplaced. He appears to be doing the very best he can for his family.

Alternatively, you can let us know what your advice to Mr Sube would be, given the circumstance he finds himself in.

Should he, for example, do as some have suggested in on-line comments, and self-deport himself to "The Jungle" in Calais?

 

[AlanH99]

The circumstance he put himself in, not found himself in.

My advice would be :
1. Don't turn down houses you haven't looked at.
2. Give up the bedroom you use as an office and let one of your children use it. I studied for years using my knee or the kitchen table for my office.
3. Don't have any more children until you can contribute to their upkeep by your efforts, not just the UK taxpayer.
4. Don't accuse the council of neglect because you haven't got the house you want.

 

[VW Cali]

This news article made me so angry this morning, I thought I did not want to be angry alone so had to share it with you lot.

No wonder why our NHS is in crisis and we have a housing shortage, what is the matter with our country




http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-family-10-turn-down-8790067

French family, tabloid newspaper, politicians out to score points.

But enough to get people riled up.

Just as some people in the US want to live in plush gated communities, while decrying those outside, often as lazy and undeserving, in the Western world too we'd like to be a privileged gated community.

Anybody here who has some experience with the media, and as to whether reporting is non selective and non biased.

There are certain uncomfortable home truths:

1. No one is superior to anyone else. Brit over Nigerian or vice versa etc.

2. There may be many foreigners, or people from other ethnic communities gaming the system.

3. Some, at least aren't

4. Many Brits game the system too.

5. Research indicates that many on the dole in UK, native Brits too, sometimes operate in the black cash economy. So they pay no taxes.

6. Further research shows that the average native Brit wants a job that pays 3 times the dole as psychological breakeven of time vs money.

7. The NHS money is not all wasted on foreigners gaming the system. A huge amount of the 200 bilion or so is lost through inefficiencies and corruption. This is not all foreigners.

8. Most research in the US shows that the real success of the US over decades is the openness towards immigration. Immigrants are known on average to work much harder, and be more entrepreneurial. In fact, about half the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are foreign born. Can you imagine something similar here?

9. Openness and assimilation is a 2 way street. The US made it very easy for people to assimilate by welcoming them as Americans. That to me is the greatest American success story. In contrast, in Britain and Europe, native communities moan about others while complaining they don't assimilate. But it's a 2 sided coin. Estrange immigrants => they will retreat into their shells and not assimilate. Wakey, wakey!

10. The best optimal solution for society is where human resources are allocated to actual ability. The Americans have always done it best. Here in Europe and Britain people want to be first in queue by right, talent and skill not withstanding. This a recipe for suboptimal outcomes.

11. How egalitarian does one need to be. Here is an example. In the 1980s in the US, about 40 pct of science and engineering PhDs were awarded to people born outside the US. And guess what? About 40 pct of faculty members were foreign born too.

12. In contrast, at one of Britain's most prestigious universities about 33 pct of science and engineering PhDs were awarded to British citizens of non Caucasian ethinc background. But less than 1 pct of post doctoral or faculty positions were held by people of similar background. When issue raised, the lie waa told that ethnic communities did not like to stay in academia. Figure that out...

Many of them were forced to immigrate abroad. Many of them have gone to rousing successes in both academia and industry. Abroad, not here.

So this approach and attitude is ironic because it ends up cheating one's own society, and lessening opportunities for one's own children and grandchildren in long run.

Build a closed nation for less driven and less skilled people by choice. But then accept the consequences of those choices rather than always looking to blame others.

All this is true of Europe as well, not just Britain.

I am wary of anyone who invokes God or country for their own vested interests. Be it potentate in middle eatern fiefdom that supresses its own people, or a mediocre individual who proclaims his own superiority by proclaiming supposed superiority of supposed culture.

At some point both Britain, and Europe, and their individual populations will have to learn that the Earth is round, and come to grips with reality.

In the meantime, delude oneself as much as possible and have a moan at everyone.

Respectfully, I demur.

 

[AlanH99]

French family, tabloid newspaper, politicians out to score points.

But enough to get people riled up.

Just as some people in the US want to live in plush gated communities, while decrying those outside, often as lazy and undeserving, in the Western world too we'd like to be a privileged gated community.

Anybody here who has some experience with the media, and as to whether reporting is non selective and non biased.

There are certain uncomfortable home truths:

1. No one is superior to anyone else. Brit over Nigerian or vice versa etc.

2. There may be many foreigners, or people from other ethnic communities gaming the system.

3. Some, at least aren't

4. Many Brits game the system too.

5. Research indicates that many on the dole in UK, native Brits too, sometimes operate in the black cash economy. So they pay no taxes.

6. Further research shows that the average native Brit wants a job that pays 3 times the dole as psychological breakeven of time vs money.

7. The NHS money is not all wasted on foreigners gaming the system. A huge amount of the 200 bilion or so is lost through inefficiencies and corruption. This is not all foreigners.

8. Most research in the US shows that the real success of the US over decades is the openness towards immigration. Immigrants are known on average to work much harder, and be more entrepreneurial. In fact, about half the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are foreign born. Can you imagine something similar here?

9. Openness and assimilation is a 2 way street. The US made it very easy for people to assimilate by welcoming them as Americans. That to me is the greatest American success story. In contrast, in Britain and Europe, native communities moan about others while complaining they don't assimilate. But it's a 2 sided coin. Estrange immigrants => they will retreat into their shells and not assimilate. Wakey, wakey!

10. The best optimal solution for society is where human resources are allocated to actual ability. The Americans have always done it best. Here in Europe and Britain people want to be first in queue by right, talent and skill not withstanding. This a recipe for suboptimal outcomes.

11. How egalitarian does one need to be. Here is an example. In the 1980s in the US, about 40 pct of science and engineering PhDs were awarded to people born outside the US. And guess what? About 40 pct of faculty members were foreign born too.

12. In contrast, at one of Britain's most prestigious universities about 33 pct of science and engineering PhDs were awarded to British citizens of non Caucasian ethinc background. But less than 1 pct of post doctoral or faculty positions were held by people of similar background. When issue raised, the lie waa told that ethnic communities did not like to stay in academia. Figure that out...

Many of them were forced to immigrate abroad. Many of them have gone to rousing successes in both academia and industry. Abroad, not here.

So this approach and attitude is ironic because it ends up cheating one's own society, and lessening opportunities for one's own children and grandchildren in long run.

Build a closed nation for less driven and less skilled people by choice. But then accept the consequences of those choices rather than always looking to blame others.

All this is true of Europe as well, not just Britain.

I am wary of anyone who invokes God or country for their own vested interests. Be it potentate in middle eatern fiefdom that supresses its own people, or a mediocre individual who proclaims his own superiority by proclaiming supposed superiority of supposed culture.

At some point both Britain, and Europe, and their individual populations will have to learn that the Earth is round, and come to grips with reality.

In the meantime, delude oneself as much as possible and have a moan at everyone.

Respectfully, I demur.

Are you related to Sir Humphrey Appleby GCB, KBE, MVO, MA by any chance?

 

[Amarillo]

The circumstance he put himself in, not found himself in.

My advice would be :
1. Don't turn down houses you haven't looked at.
2. Give up the bedroom you use as an office and let one of your children use it. I studied for years using my knee or the kitchen table for my office.
3. Don't have any more children until you can contribute to their upkeep by your efforts, not just the UK taxpayer.
4. Don't accuse the council of neglect because you haven't got the house you want.

I find myself in broad agreement with you. My advice would not be identical, but along those lines.

 

[VW Cali]

Are you related to Sir Humphrey Appleby GCB, KBE, MVO, MA by any chance?

No, I am not, certainly the opposite in spirit.

Nice try at mockery though. The delusions, and smugness, of moaners never ceases to amaze.

Take away their half baked arguments, and they resort to insults and mockery.

My points above stand.

I applaud Team GB any day. Real winners who put in the effort to compete at international stage.

Unlike the smug moaners.

The irony of forum members here buying European made cars to travel the world while moaning at the rest is lost on many.

Die Erde ist rund!

 

[VW Cali]

I find your logic very strange.
You seem to be saying that anything is fine as long as it is within the rules no matter how wrong.



Mike

That is not what he is saying.

You are in fact confusing the distinction he made. One can have a personal moral aversion to some behaviour but long as it's not illegal there is nothing one can rightfully do about it.

Example:

Binge drinking is a national pastime for many. It has many unfortunate consequences. From abuse of women to NHS ambulances running as "booze buses" at tax payer cost.

But it's not illegal per se. Blaming those who engage in such self indulgence is not the same as say proposing legislation that those who receive NHS treatment for alcohol abuse will receive a bill for services rendered.

That was the point made - very eloquently too I may add.

 

[T6 CFO]

That is not what he is saying.

You are in fact confusing the distinction he made. One can have a personal moral aversion to some behaviour but long as it's not illegal there is nothing one can rightfully do about it.

Example:

Binge drinking is a national pastime for many. It has many unfortunate consequences. From abuse of women to NHS ambulances running as "booze buses" at tax payer cost.

But it's not illegal per se. Blaming those who engage in such self indulgence is not the same as say proposing legislation that those who receive NHS treatment for alcohol abuse will receive a bill for services rendered.

That was the point made - very eloquently too I may add.

Excellent and thank you for your guidance. I'm pleased that you understand each other so well.


Mike

 

[AlanH99]

No, I am not, certainly the opposite in spirit.

Nice try at mockery though. The delusions, and smugness, of moaners never ceases to amaze.

Take away their half baked arguments, and they resort to insults and mockery.

My points above stand.

I applaud Team GB any day. Real winners who put in the effort to compete at international stage.

Unlike the smug moaners.

The irony of forum members here buying European made cars to travel the world while moaning at the rest is lost on many.

Die Erde ist rund!

Are you listening Arnold?
Hard working, self sacrificing, immigrants with a sense of duty who go on to make something of themselves and contribute to the country they've immigrated to. That's what we need.
So don't complain about your offer of a five bedroom house as being not good enough, don't leave a £21,000 room service bill behind for others to pick up, read about the immigrants VW Cali is talking about. They wouldn't have behaved like you have.

As VW Cali pointed out, Team GB wouldn't have got the medals they did if they'd behaved like you, put the effort in like he says.

And Arnold, la terre est ronde

 

[VW Cali]

Excellent and thank you for your guidance. I'm pleased that you understand each other so well.


Mike

You are welcome. Yes, I did understand him very well.

Interesting that like some others here you drift from the point under discussion to personal points.

There was definitely a massive misinterpretation of the point Tom made.

 

[VW Cali]

Are you listening Arnold?
Hard working, self sacrificing, immigrants with a sense of duty who go on to make something of themselves and contribute to the country they've immigrated to. That's what we need.
So don't complain about your offer of a five bedroom house as being not good enough, don't leave a £21,000 room service bill behind for others to pick up, read about the immigrants VW Cali is talking about. They wouldn't have behaved like you have.

As VW Cali pointed out, Team GB wouldn't have got the medals they did if they'd behaved like you, put the effort in like he says.

And Arnold, la terre est ronde

Nobody is defending lazy exploiters of lax systems.

Immigrants, or native Brits.

What I don't like is the selective highlighting of the laxy immigrant as responsible for most illls.

That is just factually incorrect.

There are other ills too, many homebred and nurtured. Until those are addressed in parallel do not expect much improvement.

And some, if not all, of the home bred ills are much greater in severity and magnitude.

Avoiding those, and focusing/diverting blame elsewhere seems to me delusional behaviour.

Aa for hard working immigrants, they tend to preger the US because they have historically been a greater meritocracy. Because they understand, from experience, the value brought to society, and their iwn off spring, from such talent.

Here, to be honest, the self righteous, "my country" is not much more than the same "dole is my right" attitude.

 

[T6 CFO]

You are welcome. Yes, I did understand him very well.

Interesting that like some others here you drift from the point under discussion to personal points.

There was definitely a massive misinterpretation of the point Tom made.

Nice of you to respond to others posts.
Have you become a moderator?


Mike

 

[VW Cali]

Nice of you to respond to others posts.
Have you become a moderator?


Mike

I thought you were one or had appointed youself one when you called me "an arse" on another thread.

But sticking to the personal still? I am more interested in the point under discussion.

Still think your calling Tom's logic "very strange" in his differentiation of personal disapproval vs rule infringement merited a clarification.

But you have studious eschewed the point under discussion in favour of personal remarks.

 

[T6 CFO]

I thought you were one or had appointed youself one when you called me "an arse" on another thread.

But sticking to the personal still? I am more interested in the point under discussion.

Still think your calling Tom's logic "very strange" in his differentiation of personal disapproval vs rule infringement merited a clarification.

But you have studious eschewed the point under discussion in favour of personal remarks.

As I don't wish to bore everyone I shall make this my final post to you and request that you don't hi jack conversations between myself and others to continue your perceived feud.
For the record our communication started on the "other thread" when I pointed out a possibly misleading statement. Rather than correct it you went off the deep end. Also for the record I referred to you after some provocation as a "smart arse"
You my friend can be the sole occupier of my ignore list.



Mike

 

[Annik]

Shall i start a new thread for this one?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jobless-mum-benefits-school-uniform-8853556