Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[GrannyJen]

Have you read the intent? No sensible person would support federalism of so many nations . The USSR tried and failed and people cannot be make to conform or stand back when against their right to choose .

Yes love, I have, really have, you are not the only person on the internet with functioning brain cells.

 

[Digger]

Yes love, I have, really have, you are not the only person on the internet with functioning brain cells.

Good

 

[AlisonF]

So what's your problem?

please do not tell me I have to realise.

You have already, in a post long ago, told me I am stupid because I , unlike you, am not a a research academic,...

Please do not continue to dictate your perceived academic superiority to me.

Time for every to calm down. Please.
No-one here is stupid. But all need step back now and again...

 

[GrannyJen]

Good

Yes, article 28 of the Lisbon treaty fills me with horror.

The Delors plan was an exercise in undemocratic federalism of the worst kind.

The requirement of the Euro to be supported by further political union is unpalatable when one views the economic gulf between member states.

I support economic union but believe that federal union is impossible given the disparity of economic and cultural differences between member states.

As assistant professor at a Southern state university I am fully aware of what happens when there is a conflict between state/national interests and the federal interest.

I also believe in democracy and the right of others to hold a different view to mine.

 

[Amarillo]

I know. It's difficult losing an argument.

You didn't click the link, then?

 

[Amarillo]

I wonder what it would have been like if the result had been the opposite?

Some of that is easy:
1. For good or evil, David Cameron would still be Prime Minister;
2. The pound would have strengthened not weakened;
3. Boris would not have been assassinated by Gove;
4. We might not be facing the partially welcome prospect of a clique of female leaders: Sturgeon, May, Le Pen, Merkel & Clinton.
5. Labour MPs would still have turned on Corbyn (OK, I know that's not a difference)
6. Farage wouldn't have made his victory speech to the European Parliament.

 

[Amarillo]

Democracy is so priceless that just sometimes you have to accept it may **** you off.

Will this change your mind?

Professor A C Grayling’s letter to all 650 MPs

 

[AlisonF]

Sorry to say but I have had to post a complaint regarding the above. Politics is one thing. But open discrimination is, as far as I am aware, illegal. Please all go to bed.

 

[fred]

many people appear to confuse social democracy with constitutional democracy

 

[Amarillo]

But open discrimination is, as far as I am aware, illegal.

"Partially welcome" was due to the inclusion of Le Pen on the list. Without her on the list, it would be an entirely welcome clique.

 

[fred]

Sorry to say but I have had to post a complaint regarding the above. Politics is one thing. But open discrimination is, as far as I am aware, illegal. Please all go to bed.

I think you may have misinterpreted Crispin Family's post if that's what you reported

 

[marshian70]

So many leave voters explaining their choice... I voted leave because I want this or that to happen. The question on the ballot paper was leave or remain, not leave on the basis that we retain loose EU links or not, retain free movement or not etc. The remain voters knew what they would be getting, warts and all. It is impossible for leave to know, just loads of thoughts of idealism. I'm sure if you ask leave voters what they now expect or want to happen, there will be lots of disagreement. For me the question was too open and allowed the politicians wanting to further their own careers the licence to say what they liked. Whatever leave deal we now end up with, it will not accord with all leave voters, meaning the end result will only please a minority.

 

[fred]

A solid article in today's Observer sums up a balanced proposal to get us out of this mess.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/02/observer-view-on-brexit-and-eu-leaders

 

[WelshGas]

"the younger generation " not knowing about life so lets disregard theire Vote is brilliant in it's arrogant disregard for the voting rights by the geriatric masses. Therein lies the ferment of civil unrest.

Tell that to the Mums who saw the younger generation Sent off to be cannon fodder as the older generations blundered through nationalistic pigheaded decisions by died in the wool old farts unable to change.

Sorry. The younger generation will pay through their labours for my pension. Show them respect.

Respect works both ways across the generations and , unfortunately, there is a large difference between the younger generations pre-war and post war which has increased significantly over the past 20/30 years. Respect works both ways.

 

[leightonjthomas]

Will this change your mind?

Professor A C Grayling’s letter to all 650 MPs

Excellent letter.

 

[DavidofHook]

Had you followed the link I gave, and interpreted the chart, you would see that the generalisation was based on hard facts. The chart showed the percent of remain and leave local authorities split by GCSE scores.

You can see more analysis here.



This John Redwood?[/QUOTE

Will this change your mind?

Professor A C Grayling’s letter to all 650 MPs

it hasn't changed mine.
He is a strong Remain supporter and so much of it is therefore predictable. Another Remain attempt to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.
He may be right, perhaps a major constitutional change should have required a different approach on majorities, but.... it did not with Scotland, Ireland and Wales so why change now?
Instead of attempting to subvert the will of the electorate he should be suggesting our next steps I suggest.

 

[GrannyJen]

Meanwhile, back in my Gallic bunker situated ironically on the WW1 front line....

Two French ministers are shooting themselves with more rounds into their collective feet than the Gove-Bojo spat....

Both have implied that the UK government was totally stupid allowing it's ordinary people to have a referendum vote and they would prevent the French people having such an exercise in democracy after their dreadful scuppering of a European constitution in 2005....

Whether the 1st republic or the 5th republic, I would suggest that is not the best message to send to a people so proud of "le republique"

 

[DavidofHook]

So many leave voters explaining their choice... I voted leave because I want this or that to happen. The question on the ballot paper was leave or remain, not leave on the basis that we retain loose EU links or not, retain free movement or not etc. The remain voters knew what they would be getting, warts and all. It is impossible for leave to know, just loads of thoughts of idealism. I'm sure if you ask leave voters what they now expect or want to happen, there will be lots of disagreement. For me the question was too open and allowed the politicians wanting to further their own careers the licence to say what they liked. Whatever leave deal we now end up with, it will not accord with all leave voters, meaning the end result will only please a minority.

The Remain voters I know thought that they were voting for the status quo. But, with the EU that does not exist, it lives in constant change, harmonisation of taxes, and ID number for us all, a European army, control of the banks so I am not sure that Remain voters did know what it was they were voting for, they just thought so.

Leave voters got what they voted for which was out and that was what they wanted whatever the reason, so I can't see why only a minority will be pleased.
I thought that the question was pretty precise, do you want to be in or out.

The trouble with being a politician is that whatever you do you can be accused of 'furthering your own ambitions'. In addition we should remember that many more people than politicians were involved in this contest on both sides with huge amounts of enthusiasm. Nothing wrong with something that can get people so involved in the running of their country.

 

[DavidofHook]

Meanwhile, back in my Gallic bunker situated ironically on the WW1 front line....

Two French ministers are shooting themselves with more rounds into their collective feet than the Gove-Bojo spat....

Both have implied that the UK government was totally stupid allowing it's ordinary people to have a referendum vote and they would prevent the French people having such an exercise in democracy after their dreadful scuppering of a European constitution in 2005....

Whether the 1st republic or the 5th republic, I would suggest that is not the best message to send to a people so proud of "le republique"

Sounds as if they are fully behind the generous EU system of democracy where, if you vote the wrong way you are given the chance to vote again to get the right answer
And they wonder why we wanted to leave....................

 

[LowMan]

Instead of attempting to subvert the will of the electorate he should be suggesting our next steps I suggest.

I've seen a number of comments on this thread like this. Suggesting Remain supporters need to 'pull themselves together', 'suggest next steps', 'come up with a plan'.

Maybe a timely reminder, but it wasn't the Remain supporters who'd suggested creating the chaos in which we now find ourselves.

Rather than continually berating those who are genuinely upset, and in many cases fearful of the situation now created, leave supporters should focus on pulling together THEIR plan for what happens next.

I might suggest, a starting point might be to take a leaf out of Nicola Sturgeons book and look to provide some assurances to the many EU citizens currently in the UK who are feeling extraordinarily unsettled and unloved at this moment in time.

 

[DavidofHook]

Some of that is easy:
1. For good or evil, David Cameron would still be Prime Minister;
2. The pound would have strengthened not weakened;
3. Boris would not have been assassinated by Gove;
4. We might not be facing the partially welcome prospect of a clique of female leaders: Sturgeon, May, Le Pen, Merkel & Clinton.
5. Labour MPs would still have turned on Corbyn (OK, I know that's not a difference)
6. Farage wouldn't have made his victory speech to the European Parliament.

7. Leave campaigners would not be flocking the streets demanding another vote.
8. There would absolutely no possibility of reform in the EU
9. The BBC would not be undermining the majority vote to leave.
10 Learned professors would not be attempting to subvert the democratic will.
11. No one would be saying that Remain voters 'made a mistake '
12. The EU would continue to reduce our sovereignty.
13. There would not be 11 countries queuing up to so trade deals with us.
14 Nicola Sturgeon would not have been rebuffed by Junker.

 

[GrannyJen]

Sounds as if they are fully behind the generous EU system of democracy where, if you vote the wrong way you are given the chance to vote again to get the right answer
And they wonder why we wanted to leave....................

Well, I wanted to stay, but with those deep reservations expressed in a post now long long ago.... at least 12 hours past...

and that was part of the reason that I wanted to stay.

In 2005 The peoples of France and the Netherlands saved Tony Blair from having to call a UK referendum.

Governance of the EU has now reached such a state of opacity and self-appointed arrogance illustrated by the above that radical reform or disintegration must surely happen.

I felt that Britain would be better placed being in Europe and being at the centre of the reform than trying to negotiate from the sidelines surrounded by the social and economic seismic disturbance that would follow Brexit.

I am in no way a "mystic Jen". I failed miserably to foresee the depth of political chaos, which with typical Ostrich-like behaviour I view with some malicious relish, and I also failed in a long long way to see how firmly Mr Junckers would cement the view of a hopelessly out of touch EU governance that badly needs reforming.

Most disappointing however is the continued sniping in the UK. Now is the time for a solid, united UK to confront an EU facing considerable internal turmoil. To put it in terms of just you and me, I lost, you won, now lets get on with gluing our joint interests back together again.

 

[Amarillo]

Instead of attempting to subvert the will of the electorate he should be suggesting our next steps I suggest.

He is clarifying the will of the electorate, and has been explicit about the next steps.

 

[WelshGas]

As I sit here in my comfy chair drooling into my coffee, being one of the elder generation of low intelligence according to the younger posters, I ponder on how we got to this point.
As I voted to leave, with my low intelligence I think back. I barely scraped through my O levels, the exams before course work and multiple resits called GCSE, but I had a dream and with the support of teachers who saw beyond exam results got an interview at Medical Scool. In those days interviews counted for more than exams, and was offered a place conditional on getting 3 D's at A level. I studied for 5 years and following completion of my pre-reg jobs specialised in Anaesthetics. Then I joined the RAF for 5 years as a medic serving all over even getting shot at on a few occasions. Then I rejoined the NHS as a Conultant in Anaesthesia and Intensive Care Medicine. In the 70's I voted to join the Common Market. I married, raised 5 kids all of whom are well settled and doing what they want. 3 went to university and 2 didn't but one of those flies Tornados and the other is an IT trouble shooter for a large company.
I first started to get concerned about the EU, morphed from the Common Market, when Ireland was forced to hold a second referendum over some Treaty. What happened to Democracy I thought. Then there was the rapid expansion of the EU with countries that had very little in common with regards to living standards compared to the original founding countries. Then the formation of the Euro zone , good in principal but bad when they allowed Greece, Spain , Portugal and others to join that did not have the economic strength required and the bailouts followed and continue.
Then we had the uncontrolled economic migration, notice the word uncontrolled, rapidly followed by the Syrian Refugee crisis, totally uncontrolled by the EU allowing it to be hijacked by economic migrants from elsewhere.
I don't care for Nigel Farage and UKIP but his one saving grace is that he was instrumental in forcing the Government to give the People the chance to vote on continued membership of the EU.
They have! The Decision is OUT.

My decision was made when Ireland were forced to re-run their Referendum. Any organisation that treats Democracy with such contempt will fail. I do not want my country to be part of that. The Remain and Leave campaigns were full of lies and half truths that didn't figure in my decision. No one can predict what will happen in the future with any certainty, but riding roughshod over the principal of Democracy is the slippery slope to failure.

Have to end now, too much drool and spittle on the iPad.

And just remember, one day you younger ones will also be old,decrepit and stupid according to the younger generation. What will you do then? Roll over and die or give them the 1 finger salute.

 

[DavidofHook]

I've seen a number of comments on this thread like this. Suggesting Remain supporters need to 'pull themselves together', 'suggest next steps', 'come up with a plan'.

Maybe a timely reminder, but it wasn't the Remain supporters who'd suggested creating the chaos in which we now find ourselves.

Rather than continually berating those who are genuinely upset, and in many cases fearful of the situation now created, leave supporters should focus on pulling together THEIR plan for what happens next.

I might suggest, a starting point might be to take a leaf out of Nicola Sturgeons book and look to provide some assurances to the many EU citizens currently in the UK who are feeling extraordinarily unsettled and unloved at this moment in time.

I think to say that we should be forward thinking and positive, is valid, Why not?

If we had stayed with Remain than we would just have had a different sort of chaos which would , in the long run, I believe be much worse.

I have rather felt that the Leavers have been continually berated both before the vote and now for some reason, after the vote. I do not recall this happening with the Welsh Independence when the vote was much closer than this time.

I agree that we need positive action and we should, as soon as we can, assure EU citizens but, it needs to be done in concert with our friends at the EU where there are many British people.