Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[GrannyJen]

@WelshGas

Goodness!

Drinking Coffee?

How dreadfully European! Even in my gallic bunker, otherwise known as Albert, in Albert, I have tea, Taylors of harrogate to be precise,

I think the point has been made. Some, possibly most, can think for othemselves and arrive at different conclusions. There is no need to imply a lack of intellectual capacity or effort simply because one has reached a different conclusion to the other and I apologise unreservedly if my earlier unnecessarily barbed retort to yourself implied that.

At least you passed an O Level or two I failed miserably even with that limited objective

 

[DavidofHook]

No, he is attempting to subvert the will of the people.

 

[Isa Neal]

Dear WG I don't always agree with you! However I'm glad you have reminded me of what happened in Ireland -I had forgotten and its part of the bigger picture we all have to take account of and we mustn't allow our Democracy to be sidelined or interfered with in any way

 

[aileron346]

Excellent letter.

Yes. Excellent. I've met so many people who didn't realise that an anti-EU vote meant we'd be leaving the EU. Far less a marginal result. It's becoming increasingly clear that a fair number of leave voters feel they were conned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GrannyJen]

Another consequence of the EU is that now, with some feeling of bravado, certain European politicians are talking openly of the opportunity that "With Great Britain out of the way we can now proceed full speed ahead with a Europe federalised along a French-German Axis".

That should ensure another couple of percentage points in Marine Le Pen's favour and I am sure the Austrian Freedom party will be in raptures.

 

[DavidofHook]

He is clarifying the will of the electorate, and has been explicit about the next steps.

No he is subverting the will of the people. (A resend , I forgot the quote, sorry)

 

[Keith Smith]

I voted remain but I too am very unhappy about the way EU is marching headlong into federalism, I assume, against the will of the vast majority of EU citizens. The EU's bureaucracy has reacted appallingly to our leave vote and I think that if our leave group had come forward with a united coherent workable plan most people would have accepted the vote and got on with it. However you can't blame people for complaining if they now see what a shambles we are in, main protagonists gone and no semblance of plan just the odd bit of rhetoric and a very uncertain future.

 

[DavidofHook]

Another consequence of the EU is that now, with some feeling of bravado, certain European politicians are talking openly of the opportunity that "With Great Britain out of the way we can now proceed full speed ahead with a Europe federalised along a French-German Axis".

That should ensure another couple of percentage points in Marine Le Pen's favour and I am sure the Austrian Freedom party will be in raptures.

Yes, the original intention was to pull us together, which it did to quite a degree but it is now doing the reverse isn't it?
Even the deal of 'join us, give up a bit of your sovereignty and we will make you better off and successful' has fallen to dust.

 

[fred]

All I hear is a people on a forum about German cars drinking italian coffee and Indian tea writing on Chinese iPads talking about imported democracy and implementing protectionism and wanting to pull up the ladder behind them. Brexiteers have had their opinion poll and within a week all the Brexit leaders have been exposed as liars and / or racists whose political careers are over (Gove included who now trails 14/1 to win the Tory leadership). Unless they want to vote for Farridge of course and really pin their colours to a racist xenophobic idiot.

Brexiteers have had their protest vote and things will change as a result both in the UK and the EU but the UK is going to stay in the EU or strike a rubbish deal to remain in the EEA (in the latter case the referendum will have achieved none of their aims). We should be clear that Constitutional democracy trumps populist democracy and there is no mandate to leave the EU unless it has parliamentary approval which will never happen. That doesn't mean we can't get the idiot Junker out or whatever else needs to happen...

 

[Amarillo]

Even the deal of 'join us, give up a bit of your sovereignty and we will make you better off and successful' has fallen to dust.

I don't know how you can possibly say that with a straight face.

Look at Spain and Portugal before EU membership.

Look at the great strides Poland has made since joining the EU.

Look at the new post communist optimism of Bulgaria and Romania.

And if you are inward looking, look at the UK's CPI inflation rate since joining the Common Market. Within a decade of joining inflation was in single digits, within two decades it was consistently below 5% and within three decades it was hovering at about 2%.

CPI Great Britain 1973 10.58 %
CPI Great Britain 1974 19.14 %
CPI Great Britain 1975 24.89 %
CPI Great Britain 1976 15.07 %
CPI Great Britain 1977 12.14 %
CPI Great Britain 1978 8.39 %
CPI Great Britain 1979 17.24 %
CPI Great Britain 1980 15.12 %
CPI Great Britain 1981 12.05 %
CPI Great Britain 1982 5.41 %
CPI Great Britain 1983 5.31 %
CPI Great Britain 1984 4.58 %
CPI Great Britain 1985 5.64 %
CPI Great Britain 1986 3.75 %
CPI Great Britain 1987 3.71 %
CPI Great Britain 1988 4.68 %
CPI Great Britain 1989 5.40 %
CPI Great Britain 1990 7.61 %
CPI Great Britain 1991 7.21 %
CPI Great Britain 1992 2.54 %
CPI Great Britain 1993 2.48 %
CPI Great Britain 1994 2.05 %
CPI Great Britain 1995 2.96 %
CPI Great Britain 1996 2.30 %
CPI Great Britain 1997 1.69 %
CPI Great Britain 1998 1.55 %
CPI Great Britain 1999 1.20 %
CPI Great Britain 2000 0.75 %
CPI Great Britain 2001 1.07 %
CPI Great Britain 2002 1.69 %
CPI Great Britain 2003 1.25 %
CPI Great Britain 2004 1.64 %
CPI Great Britain 2005 1.92 %
CPI Great Britain 2006 2.97 %
CPI Great Britain 2007 2.12 %
CPI Great Britain 2008 3.11 %
CPI Great Britain 2009 2.83 %
CPI Great Britain 2010 3.73 %
CPI Great Britain 2011 4.20 %
CPI Great Britain 2012 2.71 %
CPI Great Britain 2013 1.99 %
CPI Great Britain 2014 0.50 %
CPI Great Britain 2015 0.20 %

 

[T6 CFO]

I don't know how you can possibly say that with a straight face.

Look at Spain and Portugal before EU membership.

Look at the great strides Poland has made since joining the EU.

Look at the new post communist optimism of Bulgaria and Romania.

And if you are inward looking, look at the UK's CPI inflation rate since joining the Common Market. Within a decade of joining inflation was in single digits, within two decades it was consistently below 5% and within three decades it was hovering at about 2%.

CPI Great Britain 1973 10.58 %
CPI Great Britain 1974 19.14 %
CPI Great Britain 1975 24.89 %
CPI Great Britain 1976 15.07 %
CPI Great Britain 1977 12.14 %
CPI Great Britain 1978 8.39 %
CPI Great Britain 1979 17.24 %
CPI Great Britain 1980 15.12 %
CPI Great Britain 1981 12.05 %
CPI Great Britain 1982 5.41 %
CPI Great Britain 1983 5.31 %
CPI Great Britain 1984 4.58 %
CPI Great Britain 1985 5.64 %
CPI Great Britain 1986 3.75 %
CPI Great Britain 1987 3.71 %
CPI Great Britain 1988 4.68 %
CPI Great Britain 1989 5.40 %
CPI Great Britain 1990 7.61 %
CPI Great Britain 1991 7.21 %
CPI Great Britain 1992 2.54 %
CPI Great Britain 1993 2.48 %
CPI Great Britain 1994 2.05 %
CPI Great Britain 1995 2.96 %
CPI Great Britain 1996 2.30 %
CPI Great Britain 1997 1.69 %
CPI Great Britain 1998 1.55 %
CPI Great Britain 1999 1.20 %
CPI Great Britain 2000 0.75 %
CPI Great Britain 2001 1.07 %
CPI Great Britain 2002 1.69 %
CPI Great Britain 2003 1.25 %
CPI Great Britain 2004 1.64 %
CPI Great Britain 2005 1.92 %
CPI Great Britain 2006 2.97 %
CPI Great Britain 2007 2.12 %
CPI Great Britain 2008 3.11 %
CPI Great Britain 2009 2.83 %
CPI Great Britain 2010 3.73 %
CPI Great Britain 2011 4.20 %
CPI Great Britain 2012 2.71 %
CPI Great Britain 2013 1.99 %
CPI Great Britain 2014 0.50 %
CPI Great Britain 2015 0.20 %

Do you do everything by numbers ?


Mike

 

[marshian70]

The Remain voters I know thought that they were voting for the status quo. But, with the EU that does not exist, it lives in constant change, harmonisation of taxes, and ID number for us all, a European army, control of the banks so I am not sure that Remain voters did know what it was they were voting for, they just thought so.

Leave voters got what they voted for which was out and that was what they wanted whatever the reason, so I can't see why only a minority will be pleased.
I thought that the question was pretty precise, do you want to be in or out.

The trouble with being a politician is that whatever you do you can be accused of 'furthering your own ambitions'. In addition we should remember that many more people than politicians were involved in this contest on both sides with huge amounts of enthusiasm. Nothing wrong with something that can get people so involved in the running of their country.

Sorry but Remain voters had far more idea what they were getting than leave. Those leave voters I have spoken with mostly did so for different reasons. We know, for example, that a reasonable percentage will have voted leave purely on the basis of an expectation that there would no longer be open borders. That may yet be the case, however equally we may end up retaining free movement as part of a trade deal. Therefore those who voted leave primarily on that basis therefore will not have got what they thought they were voting for.

 

[aileron346]

A lot of arguments about democracy but does everyone believe that this vote was democratic? That everyone reasonably understood the consequences? That 40y of oligarch-owned tabloid anti-EU stories wouldn't deceive voters? That it was OK for fairly blatant untruths to form part of the electoral process. My democratic view is that I should respect fair votes...not rigged ones. But ultimately this was a crazy question to put without a clear explanation of consequence.
I've met too many fed up leave voters to think this will happen now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bigmac77]

Ireland re ran referendums on two occasions, firstly they rejected the Nice treaty, then the Lisbon treaty. On both occasions they re ran the referendums with the result being that they accepted the treaties. Inspite of this you don't see the people of Ireland wishing to leave the EU.

 

[Amarillo]

Do you do everything by numbers

It helps to preempt demands for figures.

 

[T6 CFO]

Whether we voted in or out it was always going to be by a small margin.
If we voted remain it would have been accepted and we would have continued as we are, at the mercy of the EU and moving towards a federalist Europe . Yes we could have tried to reform from within but many chose not to and leave.
We now have this backlash from the remain side who knew the rules when the vote was made, simply put they did not expect to lose.
Yes there are some who made a decision to leave on what I would consider poor grounds, such as fortress Britain and a return to a Britain that was probably never there but there are also many on the remain side who voted for poor reasons. I could put up a list of several pages but high on the list are those threatened by their companies, cheap mobile tariffs, dog passport, etc etc.
Cheapening the vote of any of them by suggestions of a poor education or on age is disgraceful, divisive and probably inaccurate.
Leave voters would no doubt have accepted the vote but a backlash would only have been delayed as I doubt had we remained that any impetus to change the direction would have been maintained.
Now that we have had an out vote expectations for this to now happen are only going to increase. To try and subvert the democratic process is going to lead to anger that would make the remain sides angst look like a tea party. It's one thing to accept the status quo but quite another to be told by the very elite you are trying to shake that they know what is best for you.
Talk of the leave side not getting on with things is ridiculous, they are not in power and with the shafting of Boris don't look like being so for some time.
Interesting times ahead but there are to many twists ahead to speculate on the outcome.
I sense a fudge which is the worst of all outcomes.

I have to remind myself that I decided out based on the information that I found, not what I was fed, not what suited my short term personal gain but on what I believed, irrespective of the personalities involved. These are short term and this was not an election. Most of the personalities will be a short footnote in history, the vote will not. If we embrace it fully as we democratically should we can make it succeed, nobody ever thought it would be easy, just better in the long term.





Mike

 

[Amarillo]

probably inaccurate

Have you any hard evidence that suggests that the widely reported education and age divide in the EU referendum is inaccurate, or are you just posting a groundless opinion?

 

[WelshGas]

Have you any hard evidence that suggests that the widely reported education and age divide in the EU referendum is inaccurate, or are you just posting a groundless opinion?

 

[Neilgbj]

"the younger generation " not knowing about life so lets disregard theire Vote is brilliant in it's arrogant disregard for the voting rights by the geriatric masses. Therein lies the ferment of civil unrest.

Tell that to the Mums who saw the younger generation Sent off to be cannon fodder as the older generations blundered through nationalistic pigheaded decisions by died in the wool old farts unable to change.

Sorry. The younger generation will pay through their labours for my pension. Show them respect.

Well said

 

[fred]

"You can't believe everything you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln, 1868

 

[T6 CFO]

Have you any hard evidence that suggests that the widely reported education and age divide in the EU referendum is inaccurate, or are you just posting a groundless opinion?

Instead of JUST concentrating on minutiae which trust me is a fault you need to look at the big picture and you also need to read the post.
I have asked you on several occasions to justify your quoting of figures. Your suggestion by showing these figures, that you are afraid to post, is that the less educated and the old voted to leave whilst the more educated and the young voted to remain, yes I know on average.
Yours is an interpretation of the figures and you take them at face value, as a result of that your unstated assumption is that the less educated voted to leave, have you considered that yes they did but the uneducated are the ones left behind by a system which is designed for and perpetuated by the self interest of that class, and that is the reason they chose to leave, not the fact that they were uneducated.
It might sound radical but it is not the total answer and neither is your simplistic assumption which is designed to be divisive and devalue their vote.

 

[DavidofHook]

I don't know how you can possibly say that with a straight face.

Look at Spain and Portugal before EU membership.

Look at the great strides Poland has made since joining the EU.

Look at the new post communist optimism of Bulgaria and Romania.

And if you are inward looking, look at the UK's CPI inflation rate since joining the Common Market. Within a decade of joining inflation was in single digits, within two decades it was consistently below 5% and within three decades it was hovering at about 2%.

CPI Great Britain 1973 10.58 %
CPI Great Britain 1974 19.14 %
CPI Great Britain 1975 24.89 %
CPI Great Britain 1976 15.07 %
CPI Great Britain 1977 12.14 %
CPI Great Britain 1978 8.39 %
CPI Great Britain 1979 17.24 %
CPI Great Britain 1980 15.12 %
CPI Great Britain 1981 12.05 %
CPI Great Britain 1982 5.41 %
CPI Great Britain 1983 5.31 %
CPI Great Britain 1984 4.58 %
CPI Great Britain 1985 5.64 %
CPI Great Britain 1986 3.75 %
CPI Great Britain 1987 3.71 %
CPI Great Britain 1988 4.68 %
CPI Great Britain 1989 5.40 %
CPI Great Britain 1990 7.61 %
CPI Great Britain 1991 7.21 %
CPI Great Britain 1992 2.54 %
CPI Great Britain 1993 2.48 %
CPI Great Britain 1994 2.05 %
CPI Great Britain 1995 2.96 %
CPI Great Britain 1996 2.30 %
CPI Great Britain 1997 1.69 %
CPI Great Britain 1998 1.55 %
CPI Great Britain 1999 1.20 %
CPI Great Britain 2000 0.75 %
CPI Great Britain 2001 1.07 %
CPI Great Britain 2002 1.69 %
CPI Great Britain 2003 1.25 %
CPI Great Britain 2004 1.64 %
CPI Great Britain 2005 1.92 %
CPI Great Britain 2006 2.97 %
CPI Great Britain 2007 2.12 %
CPI Great Britain 2008 3.11 %
CPI Great Britain 2009 2.83 %
CPI Great Britain 2010 3.73 %
CPI Great Britain 2011 4.20 %
CPI Great Britain 2012 2.71 %
CPI Great Britain 2013 1.99 %
CPI Great Britain 2014 0.50 %
CPI Great Britain 2015 0.20 %

As I said in my post the original intention to pull us together worked well...........

However, I don't call Spain's 50% youth unemployment as a success nor the overall 10% unemployment across the EU.Portugal has 40% youth unemployment , there are huge difficulties in getting a job in France.
The treatment of Greece has been outrageous.

As far as the UK inflation rates go one of Maggies big concerns, apart form dealing with the unions who were tearing the country apart, was the terrible rates of inflation that we were enduring. She was the one who managed that not that incompetent crowd at the EU.
If they are so good please explain why the UK is currently flourishing compared with the rest of the EU. A clue...... policies

 

[Keith Smith]

Whether we voted in or out it was always going to be by a small margin.
If we voted remain it would have been accepted and we would have continued as we are, at the mercy of the EU and moving towards a federalist Europe . Yes we could have tried to reform from within but many chose not to and leave.
We now have this backlash from the remain side who knew the rules when the vote was made, simply put they did not expect to lose.

Mike

I don't think so, the reason we are in a such a mess Is due more to the fact the Leave side did not expect to win.

 

[AlanC]

Have you any hard evidence that suggests that the widely reported education and age divide in the EU referendum is inaccurate, or are you just posting a groundless opinion?

This was posted on Facebook by Dean Carlton who did the research. Makes interesting reading.

Given that only 36% of eligible voters in the 18-25 age range voted, that makes the 73% figure look somewhat different. While 83% of my age voted with a 60% leave figure. As the saying goes, 'there are lies, damn lies and statistics'. BTW, I fell into the 40% figure.

Alan

 

[GrannyJen]

Where's the "old hag" age bracket?