Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[AlanH99]

No, I agree, we havnt lost out at all?? Like many, I haven't been treated the same since just before and soon after the referendum. I have been discreetly told by someone just last week that he would quite happily see all Europeans currently in this country to leave. Of course he didn't know I was born in the uk but have spanish parents, probably because I am fair with light eyes.
Europeans now view the uk/English in a different light.
So go on - let's keep talking about economy, money and how much better the uk would be without Europe and let's forget what other things we have really lost Like tolerance and acceptance of others...
Anyone else here like to see people like me return to Spain? Oh go on don't be shy.... Recent polls suggest about 7% do....

I don't know whether I want you to go back to Spain, I don't know you. Have you committed a deportable offence? Probably not.
However, I do think the UK should be allowed to have control of its own borders and the UK Parliament should be the supreme legal authority in the UK? Is that unreasonable?

I feel some of the problems have been caused by the Remain camp saying anyone who wants to leave the EU must be racist. This has emboldened the real racists into speaking their ridiculous views openly. If the Leave voters hadn't been labeled as they were; the racists (who aren't over-endowed with intelligence) might not have felt they have the support of over half the UK voters. They don't and never will.

 

[T6 CFO]

I don't know whether I want you to go back to Spain, I don't know you. Have you committed a deportable offence? Probably not.
However, I do think the UK should be allowed to have control of its own borders and the UK Parliament should be the supreme legal authority in the UK? Is that unreasonable?

I feel some of the problems have been caused by the Remain camp saying anyone who wants to leave the EU must be racist. This has emboldened the real racists into speaking their ridiculous views openly. If the Leave voters hadn't been labeled as they were; the racists (who aren't over-endowed with intelligence) might not have felt they have the support of over half the UK voters. They don't and never will.

I started to compose a post along these lines but deleted it as it was not sounding right.
You put it very well


Mike

 

[Amarillo]

You put it very well

If I understood it correctly, Alan was blaming those who prefer an open society for the racism of a minority of isolationists. It seems to me that his apportioning blame was wholly misplaced.

 

[pjm-84]

I just wish I didn't look at that money website T6 CFO. Just had another spam call and more emails about financial destruction....act now / don't delay types messages.

I think we are in a better position the longer it goes on without doing anything! (p.s nowt has happened!). We have made our intentions clear and this has had consequences for both parties. I expect the to hit the fan when and if the article 50 is invoked.

Lastly I don't believe those who voted to leave are racist.

 

[AlanH99]

If I understood it correctly, Alan was blaming those who prefer an open society for the racism of a minority of isolationists. It seems to me that his apportioning blame was wholly misplaced.

There has always been racists and this referendum won't have changed their stupid beliefs. However, previously they had no reason to believe they were in a majority.

Now, because the Remain camp say all Leave voters are racist, they have a reason to believe over half the country agrees with them.

That's why I feel some of the problems have been caused by Remain saying:
'All racists voted Leave, therefore all Leave voters are racist'.

On the subject of isolationism; Isn't the EU isolationist? Their policy is: Join our group of 29 countries and we'll impose tariffs on goods from the rest of the world.

This policy denies many, poor African countries tariff free access to European markets because of EU policy. These markets are amongst the nearest and richest to them. Isn't that isolationist?

 

[GrannyJen]

I see it slightly differently Alan.

The "control immigration" lobby provided a natural unifying beacon for all the disparate racial elements in our society. This then allowed the "remainers", with a little, but only a little, justification to infer that the "leavers" were the natural allies of those elements.

As it got nastier so the leavers, with the exception of Farage, tried to dump the immigration issue to avoid being tarnished and then spoke louder, with some quite vacuous claims, of the benefits of "regaining our independence" just as the remainers were turning up the volume on various shades of economic apocalypse, the first of which, the need for the mother of all austerity budgets to fill a £30Bn black hole, simply has not materialised.

What we have had is a "stuff the westminster elitism" vote swinging the pendulum, and from my own personal point it was a very big temptation for me, having decided that neither side were telling the truth.

As for ditching the referendum result because the winning side won by telling lies, on that basis we might just as well ditch every parliamentary election result since the reform act of 1832.

 

[Amarillo]

the Remain camp say all Leave voters are racist

Have you a cite for this?

While it may be true that there are a higher proportion of racists who voted in favour of Brexit, than racists who voted for reamin, I find it hard to believe that all (or nearly all) remain voters would believe that all (or nearly all) Brexit voters are racist.

And I find it unfathomable to understand how any convoluted logic could conclude that remain voters are responsible for racism among Brexit supporters.

 

[Amarillo]

As for ditching the referendum result because the winning side won by telling lies, on that basis we might just as well ditch every parliamentary election result since the reform act of 1832.

As I earlier inferred, this argument is something of a red herring. The longest period of time we would normally* have to abide the result of a general election is five years.

*I know that there was a ten year gap, 1935-1945, between general elections.

 

[calicasas]

I see it slightly differently Alan.

The "control immigration" lobby provided a natural unifying beacon for all the disparate racial elements in our society. This then allowed the "remainers", with a little, but only a little, justification to infer that the "leavers" were the natural allies of those elements.

As it got nastier so the leavers, with the exception of Farage, tried to dump the immigration issue to avoid being tarnished and then spoke louder, with some quite vacuous claims, of the benefits of "regaining our independence" just as the remainers were turning up the volume on various shades of economic apocalypse, the first of which, the need for the mother of all austerity budgets to fill a £30Bn black hole, simply has not materialised.

What we have had is a "stuff the westminster elitism" vote swinging the pendulum, and from my own personal point it was a very big temptation for me, having decided that neither side were telling the truth.

As for ditching the referendum result because the winning side won by telling lies, on that basis we might just as well ditch every parliamentary election result since the reform act of 1832.

I couldn't have put this better myself!

 

[GrannyJen]

I think that the 2016 referendum will become a case study for students of political history the world over.

It will be seen as a case of "which foot do you want me to shoot myself in? Undecided? Oh! I will shoot myself in both then"....

From Kim-Il-Osborne's dire warnings of "apocalypse 1.5 days post referendum" to Bouncing Boris pleading "believe me, even if I do talk crap.... oh S**T! the majority have!" .. it's a case study of how to turn victory into total "SNAFU"...

 

[briwy]

I'm finding all this talk somewhat hypocritical.
Of course all the Leave voters will now be selling their VWs, Audis, Skoda's, BMWs, Mercedes, Fiats, Seats etc and buying a British car. Oh, sorry, forgot. There is no mainstream British owned car manufacturer anymore, could always get Morgan though. Do you really think Nissan, Toyota, BMW and Honda would have invested here providing thousands of jobs if Britain wasn't in the EU. Not a chance.
Glad I've got an MGB.
No more going abroad, all Leavers holidaying in Britain. Not sure how though with no vehicle, perhaps a horse pulling a caravan unless you can beg, steal or borrow a vehicle from a Stay voter. I believe there are still some British made caravans.
Or the train. Slight problem there as well though. No British owned train maker now either. Maybe Branson could be persuaded to build a plant to make his own trains instead of trying to conquer space.
Let's hope all the foreign schools still continue to teach English as well. As a nation we just can't be arsed to bother to learn another language. And we call the Germans arrogant.
I worked for the UK subsidiary of a large German company for forty years. All the Germans I came across were charming, intelligent people who actually loved Britain.
Can anyone possibly believe leaving is going to make much difference to immigration? How exactly are we going to control our borders more effectively?
My daughter flew into Gatwick from Lisbon on Sunday, two hours to get out of the airport because there was only one immigration lane open. Where is all this extra staff coming from and who is going to pay for it. Of course there is the £350 million a week that we are going to save but that's going to the NHS isn't it?
Where are all these poor souls in Calais going to go when the Mayor of Calais gets his way and puts them on the Dover ferry. All it will do is induce more smuggling.
Possibly a lot of the older generation did vote Leave. I can well understand it as when I was a kid sixty years ago there was still a lot of ill feeling about for any foreigner as a legacy of the war. All Germans were portrayed as bad and all British as good. Comics and story books were laden with tales of how we won the war and how excellent we were at everything. Complete crap of course but many older folk have still not experienced travel abroad and these old attitudes persist. I wouldn't call it exactly racism but more of unawareness of the modern global world.
Hopefully it will work out as we are now stuck with it but I have serious doubts.
Anyway off to buy my cheap Porsche and pack my bag to go and live with my daughter in Barcelona. That's assuming she's allowed to stay of course.
All a bit tongue in cheek and no offence intended but hopefully get the point.

 

[Amarillo]

From Kim-Il-Osborne's dire warnings of "apocalypse 1.5 days post referendum"

Kim-Il-Osbourne's (excellent name) main warnings were about Brexit. Brexit hasn't happened. It hasn't even started to happen (Article 50). All that has happened is we have begun to think about it starting to happen - and the result of that beginning to think about the beginning is a 10-15% devaluation of our currency, not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly a seismic economic shockwave for good or ill.

Expect larger tremors if or when Article 50 is called, and a long period of adjustment if or when we actually leave the EU.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Have you a cite for this?

While it may be true that there are a higher proportion of racists who voted in favour of Brexit, than racists who voted for reamin, I find it hard to believe that all (or nearly all) remain voters would believe that all (or nearly all) Brexit voters are racist.

And I find it unfathomable to understand how any convoluted logic could conclude that remain voters are responsible for racism among Brexit supporters.

Crispin, it's obvious (to me at least) that Alan meant this rhetorically, not literally.

But I find it entirely and very sadly credible (and no, I have no actual evidence for that, before you demand it) that xenophobic and racist perspectives within some communities have been deepened by the whole referendum debate. Or at least that there's now more fertile ground for those views because people in those communities have perceived that the Establishment (=mainstream parties =middle classes =Southerners =Remainers) doesn't collectively actually give a flying fck about their fears for their jobs, housing etc etc.

That doesn't of course make Remain advocates, as a whole, blameworthy for that effect, but in my opinion "we" have to accept our individual bit of responsibility for it.

 

[Ambler]

Merkel has a lot to answer for.
It has been obvious for some time that many (a majority) of Brits are not comfortable with the level of immigration into our country.
Cameron asked for some slack and got nothing.
Merkel has allowed in over a million refugees, no doubt to be given German passports, when they can travel anywhere in the EU.
I am not saying these are my opinions but they do represent those of a lot of (non racist) people in this country.
Junker and the other hypocritical fat cats in Brussels did not help.
Let's face it, the EU auditors have not approved the accounts now for several years. Why should we support such rubbish?

 

[Velma's Dad]

Let's face it, the EU auditors have not approved the accounts now for several years. Why should we support such rubbish?

Sorry but for goodness sake can we not get past trotting out these 'facts'? We had enough of them from both sides during the referendum debate ('facts' like the £350m a week, or that major companies would start lining up for the Dover ferry within 30 days of a Leave vote).

The 'EU audit approval' canard has been regurgitated for years, mostly by people who've never troubled themselves to check what it actually means. Which is easy enough to do:
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

I'm not saying there hasn't in the past been a serious problem of corruption in some corners of the EU. But the facts are, in fact, a long way from the simplistic rubbish that's long been the staple of Daily Mail journalists.

 

[Amarillo]

Crispin, it's obvious (to me at least) that Alan meant this rhetorically, not literally

I have no doubt that the polarisation effect of the referendum pushed many of those with a dislike of immigration further towards hatred, but to lay the blame for that polarisation squarely at the feet of those who voted to remain is without justification.

This summer we had a Spanish 1st year medical student living with us and helping us to rear a litter of puppies. She wanted to improve her already excellent English so that once qualified she can practice medicine in the UK. What a boon for the UK economy that she wants to do this! I don't know the cost of raising a child from birth to a being a new doctor, but I expect it is well over £100,000 - and that cost is almost entirely borne by another nation. It will be a sad day if or when this process becomes more difficult for her. And sadder still that there are a majority in our society who voted for the process to be more difficult. And please, don't blame me for that sadness because I voted with the minority to keep this an easy process.

 

[Amarillo]

Merkel has allowed in over a million refugees, no doubt to be given German passports, when they can travel anywhere in the EU.

Where would those refugees now be if the German's hadn't shown some compassion?

Have YOU ever considered what it would be like to live under ISIS? Have YOU ever considered what it would be like to be bombed day after day? Have YOU ever considered what it would be like to transit from Aleppo to Lesbos? Have YOU ever considered what it would be like to live in a stinking camp on the Bulgarian/Hungarian border?

Don't bother answering - I know the answer already. You don't care, so long as there is no chance they will come anywhere near you, and even Germany is too close.

 

[Ambler]

Typical reaction from a bigot. (Definition "a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.)
Don't jump to conclusions about my views. I am talking about how much slack the main EU leader afforded the UK. I am only reporting what I see as to what happened and what had a major effect on the result.
I do not read the Daily Mail.
Also, I have not read the whole of this thread, but let me guess, Crispins all voted remain.

As for facts VD, well if it is convenient for you to ignore them to enhance your argument so be it. I prefer to deal with people who are honest and straight and if the facts show otherwise then I do not want to know.

Why can't you get over it? It was a democratic vote and one side won.

 

[T6 CFO]

I have no doubt that the polarisation effect of the referendum pushed many of those with a dislike of immigration further towards hatred, but to lay the blame for that polarisation squarely at the feet of those who voted to remain is without justification.

This summer we had a Spanish 1st year medical student living with us and helping us to rear a litter of puppies. She wanted to improve her already excellent English so that once qualified she can practice medicine in the UK. What a boon for the UK economy that she wants to do this! I don't know the cost of raising a child from birth to a being a new doctor, but I expect it is well over £100,000 - and that cost is almost entirely borne by another nation. It will be a sad day if or when this process becomes more difficult for her. And sadder still that there are a majority in our society who voted for the process to be more difficult. And please, don't blame me for that sadness because I voted with the minority to keep this an easy process.

The point of your post seems to be that we get a doctor at the expense of Spain. Personally that argument does not hold for me as I am concerned by the drain from EU countries due to the stresses put on some of them by the single currency. I have tried to make this point previously but is ignored. I have neighbours, a married couple one Greek and one French. They were living in Greece. Due to the state of the Greek economy there daughter has had to come to the UK to further her career, as a doctor by chance. They have followed to be close to her as they have the means to do so. Most don't and they are concerned by the drain from the poorer EU countries due to the single currency and were delighted with the referendum result.
So, to be clear what I am saying is that one of the main reasons I wanted out were the imbalances in the EU caused by the single currency. Just one of the effects of this was economic migration which is damaging to both the donor and host nation.
It's a fine balance but I'm in favour of the freedom of movement of people but not when it's is so badly distorted and has the potential to cause public disharmony. In many countries this is leading to a rise by the far right parties which is something none of us want.




Mike

 

[T6 CFO]

Where would those refugees now be if the German's hadn't shown some compassion?

Have YOU ever considered what it would be like to live under ISIS? Have YOU ever considered what it would be like to be bombed day after day? Have YOU ever considered what it would be like to transit from Aleppo to Lesbos? Have YOU ever considered what it would be like to live in a stinking camp on the Bulgarian/Hungarian border?

Don't bother answering - I know the answer already. You don't care, so long as there is no chance they will come anywhere near you, and even Germany is too close.

Because others don't share your views on the solution to forced migration by the horrendous situation in Libya and the like it does not mean they don't care. I for one am fed up with your assumptions that you are the only one who does care. Trust me your not, some of us just might have other solutions. They have been posted previously but you have ignored them and now and again you leap to the moral high ground rant. I know you care but so do others.
Just saying let the strongest and most able in and sod the rest is not the answer.


Mike

 

[Velma's Dad]

As for facts VD, well if it is convenient for you to ignore them to enhance your argument so be it. I prefer to deal with people who are honest and straight and if the facts show otherwise then I do not want to know.

??? I assume that's an ad hominem attack although I'm not really sure. But, if you want to come back to me with a rational argument about the 'EU audit approval' point you made, and I challenged, then do feel free.

 

[Amarillo]

Typical reaction from a bigot.

I am proud to be labelled as a bigot towards racists and racism.

I am only reporting what I see as to what happened and what had a major effect on the result.

And not challenging unjustified intolerance.

 

[Amarillo]

I have tried to make this point previously but is ignored.

It hasn't been ignored by me. I have previously categorically stated that immigration harms countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Estonia, Poland, Latvia and Lithuania, and benefits Britain.

 

[T6 CFO]

It hasn't been ignored by me. I have previously categorically stated that immigration harms countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Estonia, Poland, Latvia and Lithuania, and benefits Britain.

So your happy with that?


Mike

 

[Ambler]

I am proud to be labelled as a bigot towards racists and racism.



And not challenging unjustified intolerance.

So am I a racist then?