Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[Amarillo]

I for one am fed up with your assumptions that you are the only one who does care. Trust me your not, some of us just might have other solutions. They have been posted previously but you have ignored them and now and again you leap to the moral high ground rant. I know you care but so do others.
Just saying let the strongest and most able in and sod the rest is not the answer.

I most certainly do not believe that I am the only one who cares - a great many people care a great deal more than I do.

And I wholly agree with your final paragraph. The dilemma faced last year with the million or so refugees who had made it to Europe was what to do with them. They couldn't all be deported to the first safe country they entered. The Schengen zone worked together and found the best solution possible:
- accept those already in the Schengen area;
- deport new arrivals to EU financed camps in Turkey to prevent the dangerous sea crossings from Turkey to Greece; and,
- welcome the most vulnerable into the Schengen area from those in the Turkish camps.

Britain with its admirable foreign aid budget (now cut) has always been following its own policy:
- improving the living arrangements for those in camps in places such as Lebanon;
- accepting a few (but no where near enough) of the most vulnerable from those camps.

 

[Amarillo]

So am I a racist then?

That is unknown by me. You certainly appear content to allow racism or racist views to go unchallenged.

 

[snowy55]

Whoop, whoop. Glad to see this thread is going again.

 

[Amarillo]

So your happy with that?

No. I would prefer to see the integration of new member states into the EU speeded up to reduce economic migration. The Germans did a reasonably good job of integrating the east of their country after the Democratic Republic fell. It can be done.

 

[Ambler]

That is unknown by me. You certainly appear content to allow racism or racist views to go unchallenged.

If you read what I wrote, you will see I was putting forward what seems to be emerging as one of the primary reasons for the OUT vote.
At no time did I say those were my personal opinions.
I do not see a need to challenge them, I was reporting not opinionating.
Your eagerness to criticise everyone who does not conform to your argumentative method or opinion does label you as a bigot.

 

[T6 CFO]

Whoop, whoop. Glad to see this thread is going again.

Hmmmm!!!!!


Mike

 

[Ambler]

??? I assume that's an ad hominem attack although I'm not really sure. But, if you want to come back to me with a rational argument about the 'EU audit approval' point you made, and I challenged, then do feel free.

Well that is magnanimous of you! A quick google revealed that they moved the goalposts to allow themselves to be signed off. In other words, most of it is OK so we can sign it off. The bits we are not happy with, well, they are only a few billion and in the minority so all is OK then.
Typical EU.
http://www.richardmilton.net/have-the-eu-accounts-been-signed-off-or-not/

 

[DavidofHook]

You misjudge Conservative MPs, they are more greedy than that. Few want to see the value of the homes tumble, or a 15% cut in dollar terms from their savings.

Does anyone? Conservative, Labour, VWCaliforniaClub members, whoever?
And why is it greedy not to want the value of your home to fall? Would you be happy to see it happen in your case, of purse not.
And your savings although it escapes me what dollars has to do with it

 

[DavidofHook]

I'd like to think so but it would be difficult for them to justify the change from a Remainer to a Leaver.

It's just occurred to me they would probably say they believe in democracy so much they will go against their previous views in order to stand up for the voters.

Like the guy said in that other revolution (the French one), "There go the people. I must follow them, for I am their leader."

No problem with justification, you vote in Parliament, the way your constituents expect. That is unless you want to lose your seat next time round

 

[DavidofHook]

Well that is magnanimous of you! A quick google revealed that they moved the goalposts to allow themselves to be signed off. In other words, most of it is OK so we can sign it off. The bits we are not happy with, well, they are only a few billion and in the minority so all is OK then.
Typical EU.
http://www.richardmilton.net/have-the-eu-accounts-been-signed-off-or-not/

Thank you Ambler, at a proRemain meeting before the referendum I raised this and was told that I was wrong and that the accounts HAD been passed. I now know why. Typical EU, as you say.

 

[fred]

haha great source, the same Richard Milton that claims evolution is a myth...

 

[fred]

 

[Velma's Dad]

Well that is magnanimous of you! A quick google revealed that they moved the goalposts to allow themselves to be signed off. In other words, most of it is OK so we can sign it off. The bits we are not happy with, well, they are only a few billion and in the minority so all is OK then.
Typical EU.
http://www.richardmilton.net/have-the-eu-accounts-been-signed-off-or-not/

Thanks for taking the trouble to present a reasoned analysis of this complex question. My read, for what it's worth, is that the EU did itself no favours in over-reacting to what it doubtless saw as continued biased criticism by the UK right-wing press. I have a modicum of personal experience of dealing with a couple of the EU Commission directorates, and doing themselves no favours does seem to be a notable skill-set of theirs.

I hadn't come across Richard Milton before but from a quick glance at his published output it he does appear to have contrarian views on a lot of things: for example he appears to have claimed that the Earth is less than 175,000 years old. That doesn't make him necessarily 'wrong' about the EU auditors but I maintain my view - and this is really my point - that the whole issue is way more complex than can usefully be summarised by simplistic assertions of whether the accounts have been 'signed off'. Like a lot of things in society and politics, "for every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." (H L Mencken - and okay he had some pretty wacky ideas in his own closet but there you go).

That however, by the way, is why I maintain that deciding the future of the UK's membership of the EU through a simple in/out referendum was a shamefully bad idea. We should instead have required the parties to lay out their positions within general election manifestos and then take responsibility for implementing them. With the proviso that smaller parties (UKIP particularly in this case) should have been given an electoral system that actually gave its supporters a chance of some representation... a subject about which I have banged on earlier so I will now give someone else a chance.

 

[Ambler]

I respect your more detailed analysis and even some experience on the matter.
So, were the goalposts moves in 2007?

BTW, I agree the whole thing is quite complex and can not be summarised in a few lines.
However, that is how votes are gained or lost.

It is far too early estimate the impact. 20 years seems to me to be the sort of timescale we will need to look at. Even then, it may take longer.

In the meantime an even bigger shock may occur in the near future. The Donald may be elected and will make our vote look like a parish council election.

 

[Velma's Dad]

So, were the goalposts moves in 2007?

Honestly, I dunno. They may have been. But would that affect the (presumably) underlying question of whether the EU is systematically corrupt, inefficient or financial inept?

Actually, again drawing on my own somewhat limited experience: audits of EU funded projects, at the project level, are extremely rigorous and the highly constrictive funding rules are applied to the letter and with no flexibility. By contrast, UK government grants tend to be audited much more loosely. In effect, the UKG's auditor says "Can we see that you broadly followed the (eg) procurement rules overall? Okay, then you can keep all the money." The EU's auditor says: "Well you can only prove to a forensic level that you followed our procedures to the letter for 96% of the grant budget, so you must give us 4% back". Which is a better approach in dealing with public money? You tell me.

So as far as I'm concerned the jury is out on whether the EU is better or worse at accounting for money than, say, UKG. Whether the EU budget gets used for the 'right' things, or is sufficiently accountable politically to the EU citizen-in-the-street, is a quite different question, IMO.

[EDIT] One further thought if I may: would the EU Commission have granted millions of £-worth to Kid's Company, just on the say-so of a senior politician? That's obviously a hypothetical, but I'm using it to explain why "taking back control" never fully grabbed me as a motivation for passing the purse strings from one partially-dysfunctional political institution in Brussels back to different one that happens to be a few miles closer to where I live.

 

[Velma's Dad]

It is far too early estimate the impact. 20 years seems to me to be the sort of timescale we will need to look at. Even then, it may take longer.

That's for sure. But we can also be sure that there'll be a whole shelf-full of books in the bookstores for this Christmas on "The Story of Brexit And How It Changed Britain Forever".

 

[DavidofHook]

No, I agree, we havnt lost out at all?? Like many, I haven't been treated the same since just before and soon after the referendum. I have been discreetly told by someone just last week that he would quite happily see all Europeans currently in this country to leave. Of course he didn't know I was born in the uk but have spanish parents, probably because I am fair with light eyes.
Europeans now view the uk/English in a different light.
So go on - let's keep talking about economy, money and how much better the uk would be without Europe and let's forget what other things we have really lost Like tolerance and acceptance of others...
Anyone else here like to see people like me return to Spain? Oh go on don't be shy.... Recent polls suggest about 7% do....

If he got his way then he would bring about the collapse of the U.K. economy which would be very foolish. I hope that you discreetly told him where to go!

My Irish daughter in law has not had the same problem as you, in fact if anyone were to suggest that she go 'home' then they would get a very dusty answer.

I see Brexit as being about leaving a wasteful and undemocratic EU. Immigration and trade will not stop, of course, but be under the control of the UK.

 

[Amarillo]

I do not see a need to challenge them, I was reporting not opinionating.

I can see no valid reason for reporting such odious views without challenging them.

Would you then agree with me that Angela Merkel showed great leadership by ignoring the political risks and allowing refuge to about one million displaced peoples being shunted around south eastern Europe, and in doing so she forced the EU and Turkey to seek a political solution to the migrant crisis in Greece, which has reduced to a trickle the number of refugees making the perilous journey across the Adriatic Sea?

 

[Ambler]

Whether they are odious or not is not for me to say.
Of course It is valid in this thread as it had an effect on the outcome of the vote.


VD - interesting information but your "I dunno" response to the 2007 change signals to me it may be true.

 

[Borris]

Am I wrong or wasn't this thread going to be taken down following the referendum?

 

[GrannyJen]

Am I wrong or wasn't this thread going to be taken down following the referendum?

No, that was the pre-brexit referendum thread.

The thread was closed on the 23rd to prevent further rancorous argument but this one then popped up on the 24th to restart it

I may suggest closing this when clause 50 is signed but no doubt there will be another "I told you so thread " pop up.....

 

[Velma's Dad]

VD - interesting information but your "I dunno" response to the 2007 change signals to me it may be true.

Well you shouldn't infer that. "I dunno" means...I don't know. Honestly.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but you seem to be assuming that if I'm not "against" the EU then I must be advocating "for" it. If so, it may help if I explain that I hold no such binary view of the EU as an institution/system. Membership has benefited the UK in many ways to date, while there have also IMO been down-sides from a UK-centric perspective.

From a broader standpoint I have been massively dismayed for years at what the Single Currency has been doing to ordinary people in Greece and other parts of southern Europe. In my view they have been placed in penury to absorb Germany's and the other northern states' trade surpluses. But if the Single Currency now collapses, or indeed the EU itself disintegrates, is that in their interests?... or in the UK's for that matter?

For the record, I voted Remain, but it was a fine balance for me and, as you have said, time will tell.

 

[AlanH99]

Have you a cite for this?

While it may be true that there are a higher proportion of racists who voted in favour of Brexit, than racists who voted for reamin, I find it hard to believe that all (or nearly all) remain voters would believe that all (or nearly all) Brexit voters are racist.

And I find it unfathomable to understand how any convoluted logic could conclude that remain voters are responsible for racism among Brexit supporters.

You asked for some sources:

From the Independent Saturday 25 June 2016
Racism lies at the heart of the vote to leave the EU, says leading asylum campaigner

JK Rowling: ‘Racists and bigots’ directing parts of the Brexit campaign

Martin Shaw 10 June 2016
BREXIT: the R is for Racism

From this forum:
Brexiteers have had their opinion poll and within a week all the Brexit leaders have been exposed as liars and / or racists whose political careers are over ....

Imagine you're a racist and you've been told (quite rightly) you're in a minority. Then you keep seeing headlines, articles and letters to newspapers like the ones above. You're going to say to yourself, "They say Brexit voters are racist, over 17 million people voted for Brexit, therefore over 17 million other people are racists too. I'm not in a minority after all."

Of course I don't say that racists will consciously go through this thinking process, I suspect categorical syllogisms are not their strong point. But subconsciously, linking Leave voters to racism then seeing Leave voters win the referendum will lead some racists to believe there are a great many more people with their repugnant views.

You say it is convoluted logic, you're right, but convoluted logic is what racists use to support their views. No one using straight-forward logic could hold their views.

 

[calicasas]

I have no doubt that the polarisation effect of the referendum pushed many of those with a dislike of immigration further towards hatred, but to lay the blame for that polarisation squarely at the feet of those who voted to remain is without justification.

This summer we had a Spanish 1st year medical student living with us and helping us to rear a litter of puppies. She wanted to improve her already excellent English so that once qualified she can practice medicine in the UK. What a boon for the UK economy that she wants to do this! I don't know the cost of raising a child from birth to a being a new doctor, but I expect it is well over £100,000 - and that cost is almost entirely borne by another nation. It will be a sad day if or when this process becomes more difficult for her. And sadder still that there are a majority in our society who voted for the process to be more difficult. And please, don't blame me for that sadness because I voted with the minority to keep this an easy process.

Totally agree. Actually in the Pyrenees this summer and so spoke to lots of Spanish people as they were curious over Brexit.
I actually spoke to a Doctor who was offered a post in Hull. He was due to start in September, but has since turned the offer down as he has two children and says he doesn't want to have to jump through hoops to later seek permission to stay. He cited stability for his children's future and their education, so has decided to stay in Spain. He may consider Germany, but sadly the uk is no longer in his sights... This is now reality. Never mind we do have the commonwealth countries to plug the gap...

 

[calicasas]

If he got his way then he would bring about the collapse of the U.K. economy which would be very foolish. I hope that you discreetly told him where to go!

My Irish daughter in law has not had the same problem as you, in fact if anyone were to suggest that she go 'home' then they would get a very dusty answer.

I see Brexit as being about leaving a wasteful and undemocratic EU. Immigration and trade will not stop, of course, but be under the control of the UK.

David,
I agree not everyone has this problem, some do, some don't. Yes, I did make some very polite points in respect of his comment...
On the issue of Undemocratic, Let's not forget that the House of Lords in the UK are un-elected.
The Privy council is made up of un-elected and unaccountable people. They drove the chilcott enquiry In to the war in Iraq and after the report took so long to produce with no end in sight, people were powerless to hurry this along as they were and still are unaccountable. Had this report been commissioned by the House of Commons then some accountability would have been possible. We have our fair share of un-elected representatives, We should also have a referendum to dismantle the unelected bodies within the UK...