Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[Borris]

No, that was the pre-brexit referendum thread.

The thread was closed on the 23rd to prevent further rancorous argument but this one then popped up on the 24th to restart it

I may suggest closing this when clause 50 is signed but no doubt there will be another "I told you so thread " pop up.....

Deep joy!

 

[Amarillo]

Imagine you're a racist and you've been told (quite rightly) you're in a minority. Then you keep seeing headlines, articles and letters to newspapers like the ones above. You're going to say to yourself, "They say Brexit voters are racist, over 17 million people voted for Brexit, therefore over 17 million other people are racists too. I'm not in a minority after all."

That was four individuals I counted in your very helpful reply. That is some way off being the "remain camp", or even a minuscule portion of the "remain camp".

Moving on, I think that we can probably agree that there was an undercurrent of intolerance towards migrants and migration in much of the "vote leave" campaign - and that is far more likely to have emboldened the racists within that group.

 

[Jabberwocky]

If he got his way then he would bring about the collapse of the U.K. economy which would be very foolish. I hope that you discreetly told him where to go!

My Irish daughter in law has not had the same problem as you, in fact if anyone were to suggest that she go 'home' then they would get a very dusty answer.

I see Brexit as being about leaving a wasteful and undemocratic EU. Immigration and trade will not stop, of course, but be under the control of the UK.

I so hope you are right!

 

[AlanH99]

I thought you were asking for some examples, how many would be enough?

[QUOTE="Crispin Family, post: 165971, member:

... I think that we can probably agree that there was an undercurrent of intolerance towards migrants and migration in much of the "vote leave" campaign ...[/QUOTE]

Have you a cite for this?

They may have been four individuals but they managed to get headlines (well, maybe not the forum member).

 

[AlanH99]

That was four individuals I counted in your very helpful reply. That is some way off being the "remain camp", or even a minuscule portion of the "remain camp".

Moving on, I think that we can probably agree that there was an undercurrent of intolerance towards migrants and migration in much of the "vote leave" campaign - and that is far more likely to have emboldened the racists within that group.

Have you a cite for this?

They may have been four individuals but they managed to get headlines (well, maybe not the forum member).

I could find more but are you saying that the Remain camp did not say Leave voters were racist, or intolerant to migrants, xenophobic or the many other euphemisms for the same thing?

By the way, intolerance to migrants and migration are very different. I can be on the side of migrants (people who are already in the UK), while not wanting further, uncontrolled migration.

 

[calicasas]

That was four individuals I counted in your very helpful reply. That is some way off being the "remain camp", or even a minuscule portion of the "remain camp".

Moving on, I think that we can probably agree that there was an undercurrent of intolerance towards migrants and migration in much of the "vote leave" campaign - and that is far more likely to have emboldened the racists within that group.

I agree.
Brexiters voted over two points. 1. Disassociation with Europe, rules,laws and of course contributions. 2. Immigration.
What hasn't been clear from the leave camp is what exactly does this immigration mean? Some say, no further immigration moving forward, it has been suggested that maybe those that have been here for a few years can stay maybe through a points system, others say that in fact all those arriving within the last 10 years should go back, the extremists of course would much rather see all immigration removed from the UK.
Of course if you happen to be in the UK all your life but have parents from another country, you got to know those strong Brexiters in your community, but you simply don't know how far along the immigration spectrum they lye; and so, as sad as it is, this not knowing inevitably leads to suspicion and mistrust.
Of course Brexiters are currently in their honeymoon period and still see things through rose tinted spectacles, but for others on the other side of this fine line things are a little more, let's say... 'misty grey'....

 

[AlanH99]

I agree.
Brexiters voted over two points. 1. Disassociation with Europe, rules,laws and of course contributions. 2. Immigration.
What hasn't been clear from the leave camp is what exactly does this immigration mean? Some say, no further immigration moving forward, it has been suggested that maybe those that have been here for a few years can stay maybe through a points system, others say that in fact all those arriving within the last 10 years should go back, the extremists of course would much rather see all immigration removed from the UK.
Of course if you happen to be in the UK all your life but have parents from another country, you got to know those strong Brexiters in your community, but you simply don't know how far along the immigration spectrum they lye; and so, as sad as it is, this not knowing inevitably leads to suspicion and mistrust.
Of course Brexiters are currently in their honeymoon period and still see things through rose tinted spectacles, but for others on the other side of this fine line things are a little more, let's say... 'misty grey'....

1. Leaving the EU is not dissociation with Europe.
It is leaving the trade tariff zone with its associated obligations. This means EU countries can impose tariffs on UK goods and the UK can impose tariffs on EU goods. As we buy more from the EU than we sell to them, it has the potential to hurt them more financially than it will hurt us if they play tit-for-tat.

Many people talk as if the UK will not be allowed to sell goods to the EU after we leave. As if only goods manufactured in the EU can be sold in the EU.

They watch their Samsung TV's, and read blogs on their Apple iPhones and wonder how we'll cope when the EU markets are closed to us. All the countries in the world can trade with the EU it's just that some pay tariffs and some do not. Will the EU give up its biggest customer to make a political point? The politicians might want to do this but the real paymasters, the big multinationals, will not.

Similarly for the jobs market. Contrary to the way some people speak, non EU people are employed in the EU. I know of no companies that say, "Non EU persons need not apply." Do you?

2. Only the Remain camp seem unsure about what control of immigration from the EU means. It means the UK deciding who can and cannot enter the UK from the EU.

Some say, no further immigration moving forward ...

If you take your view of Brexit immigration policy from Dave, the Nazi skinhead, then it's more fool you. The politicians supporting Leave have been unanimous in their message that immigration from the EU will be based to some extent on the needs of the UK. Sounds reasonable to me.

It seems strange to hear the Remain supporters talk of uncertainty about the Brexit immigration policy when the present system is that an unknown number of people can enter and leave whenever they want. Where is the certainty in that? Leaving the door open isn't really an immigration policy.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Contrary to the way some people speak, non EU people are employed in the EU. I know of no companies that say, "Non EU persons need not apply." Do you?

Actually, yes some companies do say that. I've done so myself in the past when recruiting staff both for commercial businesses and non-profits. We made it clear in the job ads that we wouldn't consider anyone who didn't already have the right to work in the UK, because we weren't prepared to go through the aggro of sponsoring a work permit application. Of course in those cases we were confident we could find the skills among UK/EU applicants.

Post-Brexit, businesses wanting to recruit from anywhere outside the UK will - I assume - have to take on the admin burden of supporting work permit applications to the Home Office. For big businesses with HR departments that will be a fairly minor issue, but it will probably add significantly to red tape for smaller entities.

 

[AlanH99]

I have no doubt that the polarisation effect of the referendum pushed many of those with a dislike of immigration further towards hatred, but to lay the blame for that polarisation squarely at the feet of those who voted to remain is without justification.

This summer we had a Spanish 1st year medical student living with us and helping us to rear a litter of puppies. She wanted to improve her already excellent English so that once qualified she can practice medicine in the UK. What a boon for the UK economy that she wants to do this! I don't know the cost of raising a child from birth to a being a new doctor, but I expect it is well over £100,000 - and that cost is almost entirely borne by another nation. It will be a sad day if or when this process becomes more difficult for her. And sadder still that there are a majority in our society who voted for the process to be more difficult. And please, don't blame me for that sadness because I voted with the minority to keep this an easy process.

My point is that Remain voters contributed to the polarisation effect by accusing Leave voters of being racist, or being driven by racist tendencies, or if they are not racist they are helping to support racists. These cynical attempts to create an association between Brexit and racism contributed to the polarisation you refer to.

As for the touching story: Seriously? Stay in the EU so we can poach doctors from abroad? Sounds a bit selfish even if she is someone who helped rear a litter of puppies.

Think Brexit, think racist .
Think Remain, think puppies

 

[WelshGas]

No, we'll need all the EU Doctors we can get. I know of seven Junior Doctors working in NHS England who are emigrating Down Under. In fact my son leaves on Monday.

 

[AlanH99]

Actually, yes some companies do say that. I've done so myself in the past when recruiting staff both for commercial businesses and non-profits. We made it clear in the job ads that we wouldn't consider anyone who didn't already have the right to work in the UK, because we weren't prepared to go through the aggro of sponsoring a work permit application. Of course in those cases we were confident we could find the skills among UK/EU applicants.

Post-Brexit, businesses wanting to recruit from anywhere outside the UK will - I assume - have to take on the admin burden of supporting work permit applications to the Home Office. For big businesses with HR departments that will be a fairly minor issue, but it will probably add significantly to red tape for smaller entities.

So, when recruiting for a charity you weren't prepared to recruit someone who wasn't from the EU?
Doesn't sound very charitable.

 

[AlanH99]

No, we'll need all the EU Doctors we can get. I know of seven Junior Doctors working in NHS England who are emigrating Down Under. In fact my son leaves on Monday.

Why EU doctors?

 

[Velma's Dad]

So, when recruiting for a charity you weren't prepared to recruit someone who wasn't from the EU?
Doesn't sound very charitable.

Well, charities exist for specific objects eg helping disabled people, or conserving heritage... or saving puppies , it's not their job to expend resources giving employment to any particular constituency (unless of course that actually is their job, eg a charity that helps military veterans to find new careers).

But I think you knew that and are just being naughty .

 

[WelshGas]

Why EU doctors?

Because a lot of Doctors from the Indian sub-continent are going Down Under as well.

 

[Ambler]

Oops, a mistake.

 

[WelshGas]

Well we have paid to to train them and now they are off.
That's not cricket.

Suggest you have a word with Jeremy Hunt.
It's no more than we have been doing for decades, employing Doctors who have been trained overseas, training paid for by their own countries, in the NHS.

They have a much better work/life balance down under.

Hunt will never get a full 7 Day Elective and Emergency NHS without increasing Medical and Nursing staff and others to cover the additional hours of Elective activity.

 

[calicasas]

Actually, yes some companies do say that. I've done so myself in the past when recruiting staff both for commercial businesses and non-profits. We made it clear in the job ads that we wouldn't consider anyone who didn't already have the right to work in the UK, because we weren't prepared to go through the aggro of sponsoring a work permit application. Of course in those cases we were confident we could find the skills among UK/EU applicants.

Post-Brexit, businesses wanting to recruit from anywhere outside the UK will - I assume - have to take on the admin burden of supporting work permit applications to the Home Office. For big businesses with HR departments that will be a fairly minor issue, but it will probably add significantly to red tape for smaller entities.

I also wonder how the process would work, because, one would assume they couldn't just 'waltz' into the UK for a job interview. Australian immigration have quite strict paperwork in this respect, assuming,we adopt a similar system.
Once over that hurdle, then who would pay for the flight over for said interview? Then of course, once past that hurdle, the job offer would be followed by the relevant paperwork.
The question I ask myself (and I guess no one knows for sure) is would this put other Europeans off applying for said posts in the first place? I would think almost certainly a proportion would not apply and so we would have limited our pool of potential talent? I guess only time will tell.

 

[WelshGas]

I also wonder how the process would work, because, one would assume they couldn't just 'waltz' into the UK for a job interview. Australian immigration have quite strict paperwork in this respect, assuming,we adopt a similar system.
Once over that hurdle, then who would pay for the flight over for said interview? Then of course, once past that hurdle, the job offer would be followed by the relevant paperwork.
The question I ask myself (and I guess no one knows for sure) is would this put other Europeans off applying for said posts in the first place? I would think almost certainly a proportion would not apply and so we would have limited our pool of potential talent? I guess only time will tell.

Interviews are done via Skype/FaceTime or equivalent nowadays, with extensive references etc: for potential employees from Overseas. Well that's how it was done on the Medical side in the NHS.

 

[calicasas]

Actually, yes some companies do say that. I've done so myself in the past when recruiting staff both for commercial businesses and non-profits. We made it clear in the job ads that we wouldn't consider anyone who didn't already have the right to work in the UK, because we weren't prepared to go through the aggro of sponsoring a work permit application. Of course in those cases we were confident we could find the skills among UK/EU applicants.

Post-Brexit, businesses wanting to recruit from anywhere outside the UK will - I assume - have to take on the admin burden of supporting work permit applications to the Home Office. For big businesses with HR departments that will be a fairly minor issue, but it will probably add significantly to red tape for smaller entities.

.

 

[calicasas]

Actually, yes some companies do say that. I've done so myself in the past when recruiting staff both for commercial businesses and non-profits. We made it clear in the job ads that we wouldn't consider anyone who didn't already have the right to work in the UK, because we weren't prepared to go through the aggro of sponsoring a work permit application. Of course in those cases we were confident we could find the skills among UK/EU applicants.

Post-Brexit, businesses wanting to recruit from anywhere outside the UK will - I assume - have to take on the admin burden of supporting work permit applications to the Home Office. For big businesses with HR departments that will be a fairly minor issue, but it will probably add significantly to red tape for smaller entities.

I assume also that someone applying for a post wouldn't just be able to 'waltz in' to the uk for a job interview. In addition who would pay for the flights? Coming for an interview would require some red tape if the Australian system is anything to go by. If accepted, for the post, then further paperwork would be required.
Of course you have to ask what incentive there would be for fellow Europeans wanting to come to the UK when ready access within Europe is possible.
It would certainly limit the pool of talent available to the uk and of course those effects are only noticeable over the very long term...

 

[Amarillo]

As we buy more from the EU than we sell to them, it has the potential to hurt them more financially than it will hurt us if they play tit-for-tat.

Do the maths.

Britain's exports to the EU June 2016 was £12.2 Bn
Britain's imports from the EU June 2016 was £20.5 Bn

Britain's population is 64.1m
EU (excl UK) population is 678.4m

Britain's exports to the EU (June 2016) £190 per UK citizen
Britain's imports from the EU (June 2016) £30 per EU (excl UK) citizen

This was yet another of the Vote Leave campaigners' lies. In a trade war with the EU, Britain is outgunned by about 6 to 1. Fortunately, everyone will be losers in a trade war, so it is unlikely to happen, but do not have the rank stupidity to fall for the lies, Britain cannot possibly win a trade war with the EU.

 

[motacyclist]

Blimey, I thought I'd seen the last of this thread a few weeks back!

Well I voted to remain but now I'm quite happy. The world is still turning, ships are full, no one is starving and today (1 Sep 2016) the pound has rallied.

I'm getting a bit cheesed of with the threats of punishing Britain from our EU friends and am wondering why they do not want us in the single market so they can keep on selling us VW's BMW's, Citroens, Fiats, Ferraris, Bugattis, Audis, Bosch and Indesit appliances, Aprilias, KTM's, Ducatis etc without tariffs.

It's not something I have any strong feelings about one way or the other, but clearly many of the people who voted for Brexit did so because of the freedom of movement issue. At present it appears that the EU are not going to budge on this, so until this changes we might as well assume that we we will not be in the single market and just get on with making new deals with the rest of the world. (Soon China will have a California copy, half the price and no roof corrosion )

In the meantime, hopefully Apple will now relocate over this side of the Irish Sea!

 

[Amarillo]

Stay in the EU so we can poach doctors from abroad?

Wrong again. Stay in the EU for the mutual benefit of the UK and the rest of the EU.

I'll truncate my next story, detail clearly irritates you: three years ago my wife and I met a very generous English doctor living and working in Barcelona.

Membership of the EU which allows the free movement of people opens up a whole continent to choice and opportunity.

 

[LowMan]

Has anyone been to a party recently where the guests were a mixture of 'Remainers' and 'Leavers', and they all got along? Just asking for a friend

 

[AlanH99]

Wrong again. Stay in the EU for the mutual benefit of the UK and the rest of the EU.

I'll truncate my next story, detail clearly irritates you: three years ago my wife and I met a very generous English doctor living and working in Barcelona.

Membership of the EU which allows the free movement of people opens up a whole continent to choice and opportunity.

Ha ha, good one, nearly caught me with that one. I voted remain because, "... I met a very generous English doctor living and working in Barcelona."


Errr, you are joking, aren't you?