Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[WelshGas]

Personally, I think Barbecues are over rated on a hot day. Home cured organic Ham, potato salad , a few tomatoes and crisp lettuce leaves and a bottle of something cold, Peroni or Pinot Grigio or even Champagne much nicer.

 

[GrannyJen]

whether cold or BB'd.... eating outside is the joy.

A cold beer is nice, a chilled sancerre red equally, I have a very nice rose picked up in Borgueuil, a quite lovely chablis, also picked up on my last visit ...

In fact, anything really....

Except... coinciding with lovely Barby weather is of course the usual orders from they that must be obeyed .... no strenuous exercise and no alcohol.... at least until after Friday

 

[DavidofHook]

Yes, the club site.

The next five days, including today, is gorgeous BBQ weather when I am doing anything but BBQ'ing

T - today. Travelling. 33C

W. Oxford, picking a drone up and flying it to the intense amusement of all onlookers and probably the intense annoyance of local Air traffic control. 29C

Th. Chertsey . shopping in London 26C

Fr. Chertsey . Queens Square, Neurological Hospital. 23C

Sat. Chertsey ... then Heathrow picking Son up ... then home just in time to miss the BBQ .... 23C


In other words, the Best BBQ weather since 2014 and I'm "busy"

Oh, raining Sunday.

How was the drone flying..... Surely not so that you can peak over your neighbours fence?

Just got back, broad beans are as high as me and largely beanless but weather is great. Courgettes are courgetteless and potatoes are still under ground!

Like the new picture Jen.
Hope that you smacked the hospital in the eye!

 

[DavidofHook]

whether cold or BB'd.... eating outside is the joy.

A cold beer is nice, a chilled sancerre red equally, I have a very nice rose picked up in Borgueuil, a quite lovely chablis, also picked up on my last visit ...

In fact, anything really....

Except... coinciding with lovely Barby weather is of course the usual orders from they that must be obeyed .... no strenuous exercise and no alcohol.... at least until after Friday

Sorry to hear about the alcohol restriction, what a blow!

Have just unloaded about 40 litres of 'house' wine in boxes plus n bottles of cheap plonk. If you are ever our way after Friday Jen just call in...........

 

[GrannyJen]

How was the drone flying..... Surely not so that you can peak over your neighbours fence?

Just got back, broad beans are as high as me and largely beanless but weather is great. Courgettes are courgetteless and potatoes are still under ground!

Like the new picture Jen.
Hope that you smacked the hospital in the eye!

My new grandson...

Well, not so new now....

had his 1st Birthday

I was picking a drone up for my Son who arrives back from the USA Saturday night. Well, I was not just going to pick it up was i! "a couple of hours of lessons please? I mean, I do need to make sure it works, just in case ...."

The head headman does not want me drinking. He's trying out something new on me and doesn't want anything to corrupt the results. As if it would! Keeping me off booze is far more likely to disrupt my trigeminal ganglions than anything else!

 

[Duncan]

How are we all doing after the Brexit fall out? I hear they are still trying to push for a re-vote?

 

[AlanH99]

Speaking on Wednesday, Mr Smith will say the British people were "lied to" by those campaigning to leave the EU and deserve to have a say on the terms of the exit.

Oh my god, Noooo. A politician lied? I can't believe it! Who'd have thought, after being a voter through eleven General Elections, two referenda and countless bye elections I was so naive as to think politicians didn't lie? I must have been so gullible. NOT!
Of course we knew there were lies being told. If it really was the older generation that voted Leave then it's certain they didn't believe all they heard. If we have another referendum every time a politician has told a lie we'll never stop having referendums.

 

[DavidofHook]

How are we all doing after the Brexit fall out? I hear they are still trying to push for a re-vote?

Yes, amazing isn't it? And these people believe they are democratic too. Seem a bit thick though, they cannot tell the difference between winning or losing, something to do with 'margins'. Try telling that to Usain Bolt
Otherwise very happy here, none of the catastrophes predicted by the experts have occurred, even the pound is rising a bit. Just roll on Article 50 and let's get out

 

[GrannyJen]

Do we have a re-vote every time a general election is a close result?

 

[Amarillo]

Do we have a re-vote every time a general election is a close result?

Yes - 4 or 5 years later.

 

[Ambler]

Well 544 MP's voted in favour of having the referendum.
So why this call for a another vote?
They must have known that one possible outcome was leave.

 

[Bramco]

They must have known that one possible outcome was leave.

You are overestimating the average intelligence of our politicians!

 

[Amarillo]

Well 544 MP's voted in favour of having the referendum.
So why this call for a another vote?

The e-petition for a second referendum was started by the leave campaigner and English Democrat activist William Oliver Healey. The success of his petition leads directly to the Parliamentary debate to be held on 5 September. Mr Healey now appears to disown his own petition, so we may never know his reasoning behind calling for a second referendum.

My personal opinion is this: the Brexit vote has happened and the decision to leave the European Union has been taken. What needs to happen now is that the terms of our departure need to be agreed, and these terms should be put to the people either through party manifestos in a general election or in a different referendum to ensure that the people are getting the exit deal that they expected. The big decision appears to be whether or not we accept the tenet of free movement of people as a price worth paying for free trade, or do we want full control over our borders and revert to World Trade Organisation rules. It seems unlikely that the rest of the EU will compromise over this matter.

 

[Velma's Dad]

What needs to happen now is that the terms of our departure need to be agreed, and these terms should be put to the people either through party manifestos in a general election or in a different referendum to ensure that the people are getting the exit deal that they expected.

I agree that there ought now to be an electoral mandate for a whatever, in broad terms, the public actually wants to see post-Brexit. For many people that will hinge on the question of whether any level of preferential immigration deal with EU countries is acceptable as part of a negotiated trade-off for continued Single Market access in some form.

However I don't think that can be settled through a further referendum, it's way too complex a question. An early general election would, in my opinion, be the most democratic way of addressing it. Although that would in practice be hamstrung by the twin factors of the current leadership crisis in the Labour party and a rotten first-past-the-post electoral system that gives no other party much chance of bringing an alternative manifesto to the table.

 

[DavidofHook]

I agree that there ought now to be an electoral mandate for a whatever, in broad terms, the public actually wants to see post-Brexit. For many people that will hinge on the question of whether any level of preferential immigration deal with EU countries is acceptable as part of a negotiated trade-off for continued Single Market access in some form.

However I don't think that can be settled through a further referendum, it's way too complex a question. An early general election would, in my opinion, be the most democratic way of addressing it. Although that would in practice be hamstrung by the twin factors of the current leadership crisis in the Labour party and a rotten first-past-the-post electoral system that gives no other party much chance of bringing an alternative manifesto to the table.

I don't see what is rotten about a first past the post system. We recently had a referendum which decisively rejected changing it, so we know what the people thing. Incidentally most countries use such a system and those that don't have an extremely complicated and untransparent voting system which is not to be desired. It is the least worst option in most people's view.
We also know that the people want Brexit to be implemented asap. And Brexit means control over our borders, no more payments to Brussels and no more 'directives' on how we live and work in the UK. Seems clear enough to me. And if we have to leave the market then so be it, because in the end the individual countries will want to continue to trade with us and I am sure that in the end tariffs will reduce to the benefit of us all.

 

[Amarillo]

And Brexit means control over our borders, no more payments to Brussels and no more 'directives' on how we live and work in the UK.

Were those terms of exit on your ballot paper? They weren't on mine.

I think that if you were to ask 100 different people what Brexit meant to them you would get a wide variety of different answers.

 

[Velma's Dad]

I don't see what is rotten about a first past the post system. We recently had a referendum which decisively rejected changing it, so we know what the people thing. Incidentally most countries use such a system and those that don't have an extremely complicated and untransparent voting system which is not to be desired. It is the least worst option in most people's view.
We also know that the people want Brexit to be implemented asap. And Brexit means control over our borders, no more payments to Brussels and no more 'directives' on how we live and work in the UK. Seems clear enough to me. And if we have to leave the market then so be it, because in the end the individual countries will want to continue to trade with us and I am sure that in the end tariffs will reduce to the benefit of us all.

I accept that a lot of people will have visualised a Brexit end-state in the terms you stated David. However I don't believe it's at all safe to assume that every Leave voter had those end-states in mind. For instance, what exactly does 'control of our borders' involve (eg what about Northern Ireland)? It transpired on 24 June that even the campaign leaders - Messrs Johnson and Gove - weren't in fact very clear on what Brexit actually meant!

Hence my view that a general election should have been called to allow a fully-formed package of Brexit aims and policies to be mandated by the electorate. I'm not holding my breath, of course.

I guess a lengthy debate about voting systems would take us far outside the scope of this thread so I'll desist on that one, while sticking with my personal opinion (notwithstanding the 2011 referendum on AV) that our FPTP system is fundamentally poor and should be changed.

 

[DavidofHook]

I accept that a lot of people will have visualised a Brexit end-state in the terms you stated David. However I don't believe it's at all safe to assume that every Leave voter had those end-states in mind. For instance, what exactly does 'control of our borders' involve (eg what about Northern Ireland)? It transpired on 24 June that even the campaign leaders - Messrs Johnson and Gove - weren't in fact very clear on what Brexit actually meant!

Hence my view that a general election should have been called to allow a fully-formed package of Brexit aims and policies to be mandated by the electorate. I'm not holding my breath, of course.

I guess a lengthy debate about voting systems would take us far outside the scope of this thread so I'll desist on that one, while sticking with my personal opinion (notwithstanding the 2011 referendum on AV) that our FPTP system is fundamentally poor and should be changed.

As you say VD a lot of people envisage Bexit as control of borders, no more payments to Brussels and a stop to the directives controlling how we live and work. That is a start, as a set of general principles. We then, as in all cases have to get down to the anomalies and practicalities such as your point about Northern Ireland. But I am sure that it can be done. After all, if we scoop the pool (or almost) at the Olympics then we can do anything!

And you said earlier though, to hold a referendum would be too complicated and a GE is highly unlikely given the state of the parties. Unless, though, Theresa decides to increase her somewhat slender majority in the interests of getting things done, but then, she would probably call that before the Brexit decisions are completed

Yes, agreed, a trip down the 'voting systems of the world' may be slightly beyond this thread! And you are, of course, entitled to your opinion and you know mine.

 

[AlanH99]

The trouble with a holding a General Election to decide the issue is both main parties want to Remain.

We have politicians who no longer represent the majority of UK citizens. So, although we have a semblance of a democracy, i.e., people vote, the choices they are allowed to vote for are limited.

A General Election would give us the choice of staying in the EU under a Conservative government or staying in under a Labour government.

This referendum is evidence of the disconnection between the politicians and people. The majority of voters said they wanted to leave the EU but the majority of MPS wanted to stay in.

The usual response is that we can vote them out but apart from a few exceptions, MPs are clones so if you vote one out, another one with broadly the same views takes their place.

 

[Velma's Dad]

A General Election would give us the choice of staying in the EU under a Conservative government or staying in under a Labour government.

Actually I wonder how many Conservative MPs would still back Remain at this point. I suspect a lot of them were closet Leavers all along. And I'd certainly assume that if there was a general election declared tomorrow, the Tories would line up en bloc behind the Brexit mandate. Unlike Labour, the Conservative party has a well-developed sense of political survival once the die is cast.

 

[AlanH99]

Actually I wonder how many Conservative MPs would still back Remain at this point. I suspect a lot of them were closet Leavers all along. And I'd certainly assume that if there was a general election declared tomorrow, the Tories would line up en bloc behind the Brexit mandate. Unlike Labour, the Conservative party has a well-developed sense of political survival once the die is cast.

I'd like to think so but it would be difficult for them to justify the change from a Remainer to a Leaver.

It's just occurred to me they would probably say they believe in democracy so much they will go against their previous views in order to stand up for the voters.

Like the guy said in that other revolution (the French one), "There go the people. I must follow them, for I am their leader."

 

[Amarillo]

I suspect a lot of them were closet Leavers all along.

You misjudge Conservative MPs, they are more greedy than that. Few want to see the value of the homes tumble, or a 15% cut in dollar terms from their savings.

 

[calicasas]

Yes, amazing isn't it? And these people believe they are democratic too. Seem a bit thick though, they cannot tell the difference between winning or losing, something to do with 'margins'. Try telling that to Usain Bolt
Otherwise very happy here, none of the catastrophes predicted by the experts have occurred, even the pound is rising a bit. Just roll on Article 50 and let's get out

No, I agree, we havnt lost out at all?? Like many, I haven't been treated the same since just before and soon after the referendum. I have been discreetly told by someone just last week that he would quite happily see all Europeans currently in this country to leave. Of course he didn't know I was born in the uk but have spanish parents, probably because I am fair with light eyes.
Europeans now view the uk/English in a different light.
So go on - let's keep talking about economy, money and how much better the uk would be without Europe and let's forget what other things we have really lost Like tolerance and acceptance of others...
Anyone else here like to see people like me return to Spain? Oh go on don't be shy.... Recent polls suggest about 7% do....

 

[Amarillo]

This referendum is evidence of the disconnection between the politicians and people.

I disagree in part. It is evidence of a new political fracture that divides both the left and the right. A fracture between those who favour an open economy, and those who favour a closed economy.

And it is not just Britain. Look at support protectionist Trump in the US has, and Le Pen in France, who wants to follow the UK and Frexit. It may well be that Britain's Labour party will fracture between the protectionist economy favoured by Corbyn, and the more open economy favoured by his opponents.

I have no idea where this will all head. On thought of mine is that the old horseshoe political model from extreme right to extreme left will morph into a cross scatter graph, with one axis being left to right and the other axis open to protectionist.

 

[GrannyJen]

No, I agree, we havnt lost out at all?? Like many, I haven't been treated the same since just before and soon after the referendum. I have been discreetly told by someone just last week that he would quite happily see all Europeans currently in this country to leave. Of course he didn't know I was born in the uk but have spanish parents, probably because I am fair with light eyes.
Europeans now view the uk/English in a different light.
So go on - let's keep talking about economy, money and how much better the uk would be without Europe and let's forget what other things we have really lost Like tolerance and acceptance of others...
Anyone else here like to see people like me return to Spain? Oh go on don't be shy.... Recent polls suggest about 7% do....

I understand your feelings.

On my maternal side I am part French, part Arab. Imagine what I have to listen to all day long,