Is the VW finally becoming just too expensive?

[JollyGoodShow]

I too have a new Ocean on order. It will replace our SUV as second car. I have specific reasons for wanting a kitchen on wheels - I have post-cancer dysphagia - but even if I didn’t, the low depreciation and the 0% HP makes the price seem justifiable, compared with a large SUV.

But I think it is a luxury, especially brand new, and I feel lucky to be able to have one (although on balance I’d prefer not to be able to afford one and not need one).

It’s possible to access a campervan for a lot less than a new California.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Expensive new shiny things come easy when money is free. As Mr Buffett says, only when the tide goes out do you learn who has been swimming naked.

I think I’m wearing a budgie smuggler at best.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

Strangely the turbos have always done less well than other models come resale time.
The current £20k discounts are misleading as that just brings the the figure back down to the price it was when it was built & takes off the latest price rises.

Porsche have a lot of cancelled orders across the range, this time last year there was a 18 month wait for a 911, now there are new cancelled orders available & the wait is down to 6 months for factory orders.

The PCP monthly on a new 911 has doubled in the last 6 months!

If you want to see real price drops try buying a taycan, porsche have literally hundreds sitting at dealers with a further couple of hundred about to hit the forecourts. Think 40–50% drop after you’ve driven it off the forecourt.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

Strangely the turbos have always done less well than other models come resale time.
The current £20k discounts are misleading as that just brings the the figure back down to the price it was when it was built & takes off the latest price rises.

Porsche have a lot of cancelled orders across the range, this time last year there was a 18 month wait for a 911, now there are new cancelled orders available & the wait is down to 6 months for factory orders.

The PCP monthly on a new 911 has doubled in the last 6 months!

If you want to see real price drops try buying a taycan, porsche have literally hundreds sitting at dealers with a further couple of hundred about to hit the forecourts. Think 40–50% drop after you’ve driven it off the forecourt.

You're bob on with your comments, but when Autotrader show £20k discount there's usually a further 10k or so wiggle room.

The Taycan depreciation is absolutely savage and makes me very nervous. I've been on the waiting list for a Spectre since launch and I've been told it'll be 2025 before I can expect delivery. The dealer is champing at the bit for me to spec it so I lock down the order but I keep pushing back. The simple reason is the Taycan, virtually no one wants them after 2 years and the dealers have even stopped buying them in the trade.....

I do think the 911 prices will bottom out sooner or later and some will get a bargain but God only know's how far EV prices will fall....

 

[soulstyledevon]

911 prices have gone insane over the last 10 years.
It’s just a re-balance of over-inflated pricing structure. We’re definitely moving towards a buyers market.

 

[sidepod]

Strangely the turbos have always done less well than other models come resale time.
The current £20k discounts are misleading as that just brings the the figure back down to the price it was when it was built & takes off the latest price rises.

Porsche have a lot of cancelled orders across the range, this time last year there was a 18 month wait for a 911, now there are new cancelled orders available & the wait is down to 6 months for factory orders.

The PCP monthly on a new 911 has doubled in the last 6 months!

If you want to see real price drops try buying a taycan, porsche have literally hundreds sitting at dealers with a further couple of hundred about to hit the forecourts. Think 40–50% drop after you’ve driven it off the forecourt.

I was in Porsche Silverstone a couple of weeks ago, can’t ever recall having a choice of GT3RS to drive away!!! (Obvs they didn’t have the colour I wanted!).

 

[SamSara]

In my recent visits to Breeze Southampton I noticed a few Cali’s in the showroom. All 2nd hand all way over £70000! If people are prepared to pay £74000 for a 3 year old Cali I’m sure more would pay £80000 and wait for their new one

 

[Calimili]

997s in Germany are still at the 40k+ € mark, it seems to me they are holding steady, for a 15year old car.
It's probably the newer 3.0 turbo engine (non Turbo! models) that have lost the interest of traditional 911 aficionados. They don't sound like a Porsche...
But pre-turbo models up to 991-1 holding their value...

 

[Barry Chuckle]

I'd say that the 911 has a lot in common with the VW Camper, long lineage and iconic following. Someone once told me that you could fit a 911 engine into the T2, but not sure whether that's true or not?

 

[Corradobrit]

I'd say that the 911 has a lot in common with the VW Camper, long lineage and iconic following. Someone once told me that you could fit a 911 engine into the T2, but not sure whether that's true or not?

Not to everyone's taste but it has been done and many times. This Bus has a 3.2L flat 6 from an 80's aircooled Porsche

Tastefully Restored VW T1 Samba Bus Has A Porsche Engine | Carscoops

The 21-window Samba bus got a sporty makeover with chassis upgrades and a revamped interior

www.carscoops.com

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I’m

You're bob on with your comments, but when Autotrader show £20k discount there's usually a further 10k or so wiggle room.

The Taycan depreciation is absolutely savage and makes me very nervous. I've been on the waiting list for a Spectre since launch and I've been told it'll be 2025 before I can expect delivery. The dealer is champing at the bit for me to spec it so I lock down the order but I keep pushing back. The simple reason is the Taycan, virtually no one wants them after 2 years and the dealers have even stopped buying them in the trade.....

I do think the 911 prices will bottom out sooner or later and some will get a bargain but God only know's how far EV prices will fall....

EV are going to absolutely tank. John Lewis won’t insure them. Batteries cost a virtue and the infrastructure is insufficient.

I dipped my toe in with a PHEV fir BIK savings.I’d lease an EV as a company car. BIK and Octopus energy are pretty compelling cost based use cases.

On a personal ownership - zero interest. I put an order in for an ID Buzz the day they were announced. Nearly 18 months later it’s been delivered. I rejected it and took my deposit back. Aesthetic concerns aside, the residuals will be dire.

There are tons of them sitting in docks waiting to ship. Dealers must be sweating.

As someone mentioned Taycans are tanking. They already look horribly dated.

People laughed at me when I said the other year that EV is Betamax.

The sensible manufacturers who didn’t spend billions on separate production lines and factories for EV look smart now.

Probably best real world use case is Toyota self-charging hybrid for now.

Back on topic to California residuals. Applying the above logic, suddenly a PHEV based California doesn’t look so great. Carrying all the dead weight of a second engine & flat battery in a 3 tonne camper is sub optimal.

ID Buzz as a California is already challenged as it will be over the weight limit for a campervan when converted. LWB isn’t out until next year at best.

All of this makes run out Californias seem a good bet residuals wise.

Cars are very rarely an investment. You’re just trying to minimise depreciation while maximising enjoyment.

I’d say the California ticks those boxes.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I'd say that the 911 has a lot in common with the VW Camper, long lineage and iconic following. Someone once told me that you could fit a 911 engine into the T2, but not sure whether that's true or not?

It’s been dine with air cooled 911. I’ve seen a 997 turbo fitted to a Split Screen. But that has a bespoke aluminium chassis.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I'd say that the 911 has a lot in common with the VW Camper, long lineage and iconic following. Someone once told me that you could fit a 911 engine into the T2, but not sure whether that's true or not?

For real fun, check out the Nurburgring Split Screen ‘taxi’. Wild.

Heavily modded (widened body). But even so.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

For real fun, check out the Nurburgring Split Screen ‘taxi’. Wild.

Heavily modded (widened body). But even so.

Sorry wrong link posted. Ironic as it’s an EV Lotus!

Correct link here.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

The ultimate. https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/5...e-911-turbo-engine-vw-group-synergy-best/amp/

Might be tricky as a camper

 

[Corradobrit]

Sorry wrong link posted. Ironic as it’s an EV Lotus!

Correct link here.

Love the 2 tone colour palette. It's giving me ideas for my Pure Grey Cali if I ever get bored with an all grey box.

 

[Corradobrit]

The ultimate. https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/5...e-911-turbo-engine-vw-group-synergy-best/amp/

Might be tricky as a camper

And I would def want 4Mo with that setup.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

I think the Porsche 924 had a VW van engine so the engines can go the other way too!

 

[JollyGoodShow]

I’m

EV are going to absolutely tank. John Lewis won’t insure them. Batteries cost a virtue and the infrastructure is insufficient.

I dipped my toe in with a PHEV fir BIK savings.I’d lease an EV as a company car. BIK and Octopus energy are pretty compelling cost based use cases.

On a personal ownership - zero interest. I put an order in for an ID Buzz the day they were announced. Nearly 18 months later it’s been delivered. I rejected it and took my deposit back. Aesthetic concerns aside, the residuals will be dire.

There are tons of them sitting in docks waiting to ship. Dealers must be sweating.

As someone mentioned Taycans are tanking. They already look horribly dated.

People laughed at me when I said the other year that EV is Betamax.

The sensible manufacturers who didn’t spend billions on separate production lines and factories for EV look smart now.

Probably best real world use case is Toyota self-charging hybrid for now.

Back on topic to California residuals. Applying the above logic, suddenly a PHEV based California doesn’t look so great. Carrying all the dead weight of a second engine & flat battery in a 3 tonne camper is sub optimal.

ID Buzz as a California is already challenged as it will be over the weight limit for a campervan when converted. LWB isn’t out until next year at best.

All of this makes run out Californias seem a good bet residuals wise.

Cars are very rarely an investment. You’re just trying to minimise depreciation while maximising enjoyment.

I’d say the California ticks those boxes.

I agree on Californias’ residuals and the merits of diesels for long distance tourers.

I have an EV and absolutely love it. I don’t think batteries are Betamax. Even at current prices, and with the current infrastructure, I would not hesitate to have another EV. The way it drives, the cost of power, the convenience of home charging, are amazing. Batteries will get better and cheaper and purpose-built EVs will be better and better. The infrastructure will get there, eventually.

That said I am not sure everything will be EV. I see a role for ICEs, PHEV, EVs and possibly even hydrogen for trucks. A diverse mix might work best. We have 27 years to fix this. 27 years ago, I remember hearing about global warming for the first time. China was an emerging power and its economy was much smaller, in total, than Britain’s. There were no smartphones and I had 56k internet, if I was lucky. My internet is now 10,000 times faster (I think I’ve calculated that right). So guessing what mobility technology we will be using in 2050 is a mug’s game.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Love the 2 tone colour palette. It's giving me ideas for my Pure Grey Cali if I ever get bored with an all grey box.

I was thinking exactly the same for Ascot Grey. I think the contrast strip to delineate the two colours is the key.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

And I would def want 4Mo with that setup.

Might be helpful…

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I agree on Californias’ residuals and the merits of diesels for long distance tourers.

I have an EV and absolutely love it. I don’t think batteries are Betamax. Even at current prices, and with the current infrastructure, I would not hesitate to have another EV. The way it drives, the cost of power, the convenience of home charging, are amazing. Batteries will get better and cheaper and purpose-built EVs will be better and better. The infrastructure will get there, eventually.

That said I am not sure everything will be EV. I see a role for ICEs, PHEV, EVs and possibly even hydrogen for trucks. A diverse mix might work best. We have 27 years to fix this. 27 years ago, I remember hearing about global warming for the first time. China was an emerging power and its economy was much smaller, in total, than Britain’s. There were no smartphones and I had 56k internet, if I was lucky. My internet is now 10,000 times faster (I think I’ve calculated that right). So guessing what mobility technology we will be using in 2050 is a mug’s game.

I don’t think so much I’m speculating as to what I’ll be driving in 2050. I’m looking very much at the six inches in front of my face.

In terms of Betamax, from recollection it was a good technology that was usurped by VHS. Then BluRay and now streaming.

I see EV as an absolutely necessary bridge. But a bridge, not the future.

The best EV I have test driven was an i4. Not the dual motor. Drive most like a ‘proper’ RWD BMW.

I’m no EV hater. You’ve misinterpreted that. As I said, if someone else is paying, I’m all over it with my home charger.

I’m just not wearing the depreciation on my own dime.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I don’t think so much I’m speculating as to what I’ll be driving in 2050. I’m looking very much at the six inches in front of my face.

In terms of Betamax, from recollection it was a good technology that was usurped by VHS. Then BluRay and now streaming.

I see EV as an absolutely necessary bridge. But a bridge, not the future.

The best EV I have test driven was an i4. Not the dual motor. Drive most like a ‘proper’ RWD BMW.

I’m no EV hater. You’ve misinterpreted that. As I said, if someone else is paying, I’m all over it with my home charger.

I’m just not wearing the depreciation on my own dime.

Agree completely. We have 2 salary sacrifice EVs and they’re by far the cheapest vehicles we’ve ever had. The government takes the hit as they get less tax from us, the leasing company makes a load and we save a load. Win win.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

I'd love to see VW produce the ID Buzz as a camper, but they can't even manage to get the range much over 200 miles, for that sort of vehicle it has to be at least double that. To me that gives me an indication of the limitations of EV's still.

 

[Corradobrit]

I'd love to see VW produce the ID Buzz as a camper, but they can't even manage to get the range much over 200 miles, for that sort of vehicle it has to be at least double that. To me that gives me an indication of the limitations of EV's still.

And real world range in colder climes is far less @150 miles for a 'light' Buzz MPV assuming you go from full charge to sucking electrons (and with potential risks). Add habitation and the hit will be significant. I don't see EV's in the short to medium term getting to the point where they can achieve 400 miles range (real world) fully loaded for a family of 4.