Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[vmaxkiddy]

My 2008 callie's bellows don't leak, but this weekend we caught it badly in the mechanism, hard gust of wind and breakage of the bungee, and although I'll repair with elephant tape I think I will need to replace them.
Looking at using my VW centre in Poole as it's not something I can do but I am wincing at the price and will the new ones be leaky?

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[Ch1pbutty]

My 2008 callie's bellows don't leak, but this weekend we caught it badly in the mechanism, hard gust of wind and breakage of the bungee, and although I'll repair with elephant tape I think I will need to replace them.
Looking at using my VW centre in Poole as it's not something I can do but I am wincing at the price and will the new ones be leaky?

Try Kernow Transporters, they will most probably have some older leak free stock.

 

[stationmaster]

I agree I don't feel overly aggrieved as you also have to bear in mind that a used buyer won't benefit from 0% finance either. I suppose my point was that if I had my time again I'd have rejected it within the 30 day window and lost nothing on it.

If i was in your situation, i would be having a conversation with Adrian Burns of the executive office: executive.office@vwcv.co.uk

You purchased a California as it was perfect for your needs, single reason you are selling it/trading it so early after purchase is that the roof leaks and VW have not come up with a reliable solution.

I would hope that VW might offer you some good will financial assistance?

The second hand sales market is sometimes poor for nearly new (few month old) vehicles, naturally people often prefer the support a main dealer can offer against a new factory/stock vehicle.

You are having to sell now because of the leak and the solution not being in place at this time (it will be in place soon i am sure, but this does not help you at this moment in time - hence the short term deflated 'trade sale' price of your van - which will bounce back up again when the leaks are all sorted and history).

 

[Czmitche]

I’ve got my Cali booked in for bellows test and replacement at the end of the month, plus replacing a stained kitchen blind from the resulting deluge.

Reported to dealer mid March, VW Customer Services and also Exec Office. Exec office told the dealer that they only had one other case on record of 04S leaking and that was just a few drips.

Since I reported it a few weeks ago lots more have been reported - and I would guess quite a few more to come since Easter weekend and the bad weather, when many would be away camping for the first time.

Replacing my bellows with another 04S doesn’t now fill me with confidence, so I think a discussion with the dealer (Breeze - who I’ve no issues with at all) to suggest bellows testing and warranty claim but wait a short period until a proven solution is found.

My guess is that with T6.1 Cali production ending very soon and VW focussing on it’s replacement model, I imagine VW issuing us some AquaTex to apply to the seams. Cheap, quick and - according to some posters - appears to work. I for one wouldn’t be against that providing it was approved by VW and the 5yr warranty was unaffected.

Some facts:

We are group of cali owning friends - in October last year three of us ordered a new California Ocean from Breeze in Poole. All three were delivered in March - and all three have same 04S bellows and all three leak.

i do not believe that there is such variation of manufacturing process/VW quality control whereby some of the new campers have the problem and others do not. As there is no consistent documented test to do i think the variation of results is down to variation of testing method and a natural bias for owners to get a good result rather than have to admit to ouselves that there is a fundamental issue in a vehicle costing £70k.

These are sold as camper vans and therefore leaking bellows make them unfit for that purpose. We can get into a sea of pain/cost for both ourselves and VW by rejecting dozens of vans or VW comes up with a warrantied solution. This would appear to be as simple as VW themselves applying a suitable waterproofing treatment and then warranting that they will repair any damage caused by water ingress through the bellows so long as the roof was not raised in conditions that VW already advise against, i.e. wind speed not greater than 50mph gusts. This will be much cheaper for VW than the returns route and give us what we have paid for.

VW have continued to sell defective vehicles - this issue has been known about for months and i know from experience that the VW solution, 04S, does not work. Therefore it is they who need to come up with a remedy - not for clients to treat the bellows themselves or accept a lesser amount than they have paid to get rid of the van.

I spoke to VW Customer services today who very grudgingly raised a case number and then promptly shut it - as there is no case until the dealer has examined the vehicle, admitted there is an issue and has tried the remedy. I spoke to the service manager at Breeze yesterday who admitted this would be to change the bellows for the same 04S material. A pointless exercise. It would appear that VW's preferred route is for me to reject the vehicle rather than come up with a customer focused pragmatic solution.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Some facts:

We are group of cali owning friends - in October last year three of us ordered a new California Ocean from Breeze in Poole. All three were delivered in March - and all three have same 04S bellows and all three leak.

i do not believe that there is such variation of manufacturing process/VW quality control whereby some of the new campers have the problem and others do not. As there is no consistent documented test to do i think the variation of results is down to variation of testing method and a natural bias for owners to get a good result rather than have to admit to ouselves that there is a fundamental issue in a vehicle costing £70k.

These are sold as camper vans and therefore leaking bellows make them unfit for that purpose. We can get into a sea of pain/cost for both ourselves and VW by rejecting dozens of vans or VW comes up with a warrantied solution. This would appear to be as simple as VW themselves applying a suitable waterproofing treatment and then warranting that they will repair any damage caused by water ingress through the bellows so long as the roof was not raised in conditions that VW already advise against, i.e. wind speed not greater than 50mph gusts. This will be much cheaper for VW than the returns route and give us what we have paid for.

VW have continued to sell defective vehicles - this issue has been known about for months and i know from experience that the VW solution, 04S, does not work. Therefore it is they who need to come up with a remedy - not for clients to treat the bellows themselves or accept a lesser amount than they have paid to get rid of the van.

I spoke to VW Customer services today who very grudgingly raised a case number and then promptly shut it - as there is no case until the dealer has examined the vehicle, admitted there is an issue and has tried the remedy. I spoke to the service manager at Breeze yesterday who admitted this would be to change the bellows for the same 04S material. A pointless exercise. It would appear that VW's preferred route is for me to reject the vehicle rather than come up with a customer focused pragmatic solution.

I feel your pain having had leaking bellows since July 2023 and waiting for an 04S to be fitted.

Some of the 04S pictures certainly look a lot worse than our third set of 03S bellows so we could take a big backwards step.

But it is absolutely the case that some 03S bellows and 04S bellows don't leak. The stats here are damning but represent a very small percentage of vehicles sold. It's also the case that most of the contributors here are not glossing over testing. Quite the opposite and there are bellows which don't leak.

 

[lohr500]

@Czmitche

I agree. It is a crazy situation.

• The problem is clearly widespread.
• Those of us who have leaking bellows know they leak.We don't need to go through the charade of taking our van many miles to a dealership for the dealership to confirm what we already know. Photographic evidence should be sufficient to register a case.
• Nobody with good bellows is going to falsify that they have a leak for goodness sake. Especially as the only current remedies are rejection of the van or replacement with another set of 04S bellows. At the point where a customer wants to reject their van, or get the bellows swapped then at that point, by all means let VW do their own test to establish that the bellows leak.
• As an interim fix until VW can get bellows manufactured that work, in my opinion they should offer two options to customers who have provided photographic evidence of leakage and who do not want to reject their van or get the bellows swapped now:
  • Offer to apply a waterproofing agent at the dealership.
  • Agree to let customers apply their own waterproofing agent, using a product approved by VW.
  • For both options, VW should reassure customers that their warranties will still be valid, subject to using the pop up roofs as specified in the owner handbook.
• For new builds, VW should apply the same approved waterproofing material either at the factory, or at the dealership as part of the PDI process.

In my case the application of two coats of Aqua Tex to the inside and outside seams and stitching appears to have stopped all the leaks I was seeing previously. I have had the roof up now for several days in some pretty heavy rain and wind and not a drop of water has found its way through the bellows. The Aqua Tex coating is invisible when dry and it doesn't appear to have degraded any of the materials used in the bellows construction. Total cost £24.

If it proves to be a long term solution then it will have cost VW diddly squat.
If it works for a few months until VW can develop a permanent solution then it saves them the cost of replacing my bellows now with an identical design that could well be no better.

How difficult does it need to be !!!???

 

[lohr500]

I feel your pain having had leaking bellows since July 2023 and waiting for an 04S to be fitted.

Some of the 04S pictures certainly look a lot worse than our third set of 03S bellows so we could take a big backwards step.

But it is absolutely the case that some 03S bellows and 04S bellows don't leak. The stats here are damning but represent a very small percentage of vehicles sold. It's also the case that most of the contributors here are not glossing over testing. Quite the opposite and there are bellows which don't leak.

If the problem isn't as widespread as some of us are perhaps thinking, then it would make even more sense for VW to approve the use of a waterproofing spray on bellows where photographic evidence of leaking can be provided.

I'm sure they would prefer this than the ongoing cost of replacing like for like bellows, which may in turn need replacing.

The facts from an earlier reply, based on information received from the staff at Breeze, indicated a 16% failure rate on the 75 Oceans they had sold with the latest bellows . And as I mentioned in reply to this, how many of the ones that haven't failed have actually been used in the rain yet?

 

[Kev56]

@Czmitche

I agree. It is a crazy situation.

• The problem is clearly widespread.
• Those of us who have leaking bellows know they leak.We don't need to go through the charade of taking our van many miles to a dealership for the dealership to confirm what we already know. Photographic evidence should be sufficient to register a case.
• Nobody with good bellows is going to falsify that they have a leak for goodness sake. Especially as the only current remedies are rejection of the van or replacement with another set of 04S bellows. At the point where a customer wants to reject their van, or get the bellows swapped then at that point, by all means let VW do their own test to establish that the bellows leak.
• As an interim fix until VW can get bellows manufactured that work, in my opinion they should offer two options to customers who have provided photographic evidence of leakage and who do not want to reject their van or get the bellows swapped now:
  • Offer to apply a waterproofing agent at the dealership.
  • Agree to let customers apply their own waterproofing agent, using a product approved by VW.
  • For both options, VW should reassure customers that their warranties will still be valid, subject to using the pop up roofs as specified in the owner handbook.
• For new builds, VW should apply the same approved waterproofing material either at the factory, or at the dealership as part of the PDI process.

In my case the application of two coats of Aqua Tex to the inside and outside seams and stitching appears to have stopped all the leaks I was seeing previously. I have had the roof up now for several days in some pretty heavy rain and wind and not a drop of water has found its way through the bellows. The Aqua Tex coating is invisible when dry and it doesn't appear to have degraded any of the materials used in the bellows construction. Total cost £24.

If it proves to be a long term solution then it will have cost VW diddly squat.
If it works for a few months until VW can develop a permanent solution then it saves them the cost of replacing my bellows now with an identical design that could well be no better.

How difficult does it need to be !!!???

I have the OS3 and they leak a 'little bit’ and lodged my case. I’m not going through the faff of getting them replaced with something that maybe worse. I’m going to wait until VW resolve the problem. I would apply a water proofer my self in the mean time if VW would confirm it would not negate my warranty.
Agree with your comments and as you say “ How difficult does it need to be

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

If the problem isn't as widespread as some of us are perhaps thinking, then it would make even more sense for VW to approve the use of a waterproofing spray on bellows where photographic evidence of leaking can be provided.

I'm sure they would prefer this than the ongoing cost of replacing like for like bellows, which may in turn need replacing.

The facts from an earlier reply, based on information received from the staff at Breeze, indicated a 16% failure rate on the 75 Oceans they had sold with the latest bellows . And as I mentioned in reply to this, how many of the ones that haven't failed have actually been used in the rain yet?

Those are very difficult questions to answer. The Breeze figures are back at levels of 03S failures in the early days and then on this thread things went a bit quiet until the latest round of 04S deliveries.

JimmyLondon says Eurovans have a zero percent failure rate and they are the largest dealer. No-one on here has piped up yet to challenge that assertion...

I think I worked out there's about 100 Calis per month being delivered, and whilst I don't know for sure, my impression is that Adrian is dealing with dozens of failures in total (maybe around the 30 to 40 mark).

Notwithstanding the fair-weather campers, those you use a topper etc.

 

[GreenMissile]

@Czmitche

I agree. It is a crazy situation.

• The problem is clearly widespread.
• Those of us who have leaking bellows know they leak.We don't need to go through the charade of taking our van many miles to a dealership for the dealership to confirm what we already know. Photographic evidence should be sufficient to register a case.
• Nobody with good bellows is going to falsify that they have a leak for goodness sake. Especially as the only current remedies are rejection of the van or replacement with another set of 04S bellows. At the point where a customer wants to reject their van, or get the bellows swapped then at that point, by all means let VW do their own test to establish that the bellows leak.
• As an interim fix until VW can get bellows manufactured that work, in my opinion they should offer two options to customers who have provided photographic evidence of leakage and who do not want to reject their van or get the bellows swapped now:
  • Offer to apply a waterproofing agent at the dealership.
  • Agree to let customers apply their own waterproofing agent, using a product approved by VW.
  • For both options, VW should reassure customers that their warranties will still be valid, subject to using the pop up roofs as specified in the owner handbook.
• For new builds, VW should apply the same approved waterproofing material either at the factory, or at the dealership as part of the PDI process.

In my case the application of two coats of Aqua Tex to the inside and outside seams and stitching appears to have stopped all the leaks I was seeing previously. I have had the roof up now for several days in some pretty heavy rain and wind and not a drop of water has found its way through the bellows. The Aqua Tex coating is invisible when dry and it doesn't appear to have degraded any of the materials used in the bellows construction. Total cost £24.

If it proves to be a long term solution then it will have cost VW diddly squat.
If it works for a few months until VW can develop a permanent solution then it saves them the cost of replacing my bellows now with an identical design that could well be no better.

How difficult does it need to be !!!???

Totally agree about the ridiculous situation about taking the van in to a dealer to have them confirm that the bellows leak only for them to fit another 04S which will do the same in all likelihood.
I sent a video to Breeze and email who in turn sent it on to Adrian. He knows I do not want to go through this charade until there is a revised solution, 05S or whatever. Why VW want to incur costs from dealers to undertake the warranty work and replace the not fit for purpose bellows with another set that are not fit for purpose makes absolutely no business or customer focus sense whatsoever.
I have a catch up scheduled with Adrian next week to see what the latest is, but I do not expect anything different until maybe more customers start to venture out hit the same issues and because they are maybe not as well informed take the replacements and find out that they are in exactly the same situation, so VW then hopefully will realise they need to get the finger out and secure a permanent solution!!

 

[GreenMissile]

Those are very difficult questions to answer. The Breeze figures are back at levels of 03S failures in the early days and then on this thread things went a bit quiet until the latest round of 04S deliveries.

JimmyLondon says Eurovans have a zero percent failure rate and they are the largest dealer. No-one on here has piped up yet to challenge that assertion...

I think I worked out there's about 100 Calis per month being delivered, and whilst I don't know for sure, my impression is that Adrian is dealing with dozens of failures in total (maybe around the 30 to 40 mark).

Notwithstanding the fair-weather campers, those you use a topper etc.

There is absolutely no chance that Eurovans have had no failures. Given some of the other threads on their customer service it comes as no surprise that they have come away with that statement.

 

[stationmaster]

I understand Adrian is on leave? Does anyone know when he returns to work? Is anyone picking up on bellows related issues in his absence?

 

[GreenMissile]

I understand Adrian is on leave? Does anyone know when he returns to work? Is anyone picking up on bellows related issues in his absence?

He is back next week.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

There is absolutely no chance that Eurovans have had no failures. Given some of the other threads on their customer service it comes as no surprise that they have come away with that statement.

Is it not strange none have popped up on here??

 

[WelshGas]

If the problem isn't as widespread as some of us are perhaps thinking, then it would make even more sense for VW to approve the use of a waterproofing spray on bellows where photographic evidence of leaking can be provided.

I'm sure they would prefer this than the ongoing cost of replacing like for like bellows, which may in turn need replacing.

The facts from an earlier reply, based on information received from the staff at Breeze, indicated a 16% failure rate on the 75 Oceans they had sold with the latest bellows . And as I mentioned in reply to this, how many of the ones that haven't failed have actually been used in the rain yet?

It won't cost VW anything to replace the Bellows . The costs will all be covered by the Bellows manufacturer as per the contract with VW. Bellows, if returned to the manufacturer as per contract, may well be refurbished to the current standard and re- issued. Who knows!

 

[WelshGas]

Is it not strange none have popped up on here??

Probably because new owners have gone to their local or preferred Dealership.

 

[GreenMissile]

Is it not strange none have popped up on here??

Not everyone has commented on who the supplying dealer was. I lot of us have mentioned Breeze as they have been very supportive and as @WelshGas states others will have went to their local dealerships.

 

[P600BOO]

I have had my poptop up for the last 2 days on my drive at home in pouring rain and not a drop of water has come through.
As you all know I sprayed all the stitched areas both inside and out with Aqua Tex at least 3 weeks ago.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Plenty on here have vans from EuroVans as they were (possibly still are) the DTD negotiated seller for the California. Many though will have bought their vans "remotely" from EuroVans and would never have actually engaged with them over the problems directly, instead using their local dealer. Unless you're going down the rejection path, that will mean EV will never see that owner again. That said, I know for a fact numerous 03S vans with leaky bellows have been reported to them, albeit I don't know if they've actually tested them themselves.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

Plenty on here have vans from EuroVans as they were (possibly still are) the DTD negotiated seller for the California. Many though will have bought their vans "remotely" from EuroVans and would never have actually engaged with them over the problems directly, instead using their local dealer. Unless you're going down the rejection path, that will mean EV will never see that owner again. That said, I know for a fact numerous 03S vans with leaky bellows have been reported to them, albeit I don't know if they've actually tested them themselves.

I'm with @Jimmylondon07 that Eurovans played dumb when this subject was raised with them. However I wouldn't believe a word they say as sadly my impression of this dealership is 'a sale at any cost' I bypassed DTD and went to them directly to order my van.

As sure as night follows day they are away as I've even mentioned this issue to them myself. I just got the standard 'the vehicle is under warranty so any faults will be investigated'

 

[markbrown83]

Not everyone has commented on who the supplying dealer was. I lot of us have mentioned Breeze as they have been very supportive and as @WelshGas states others will have went to their local dealerships.

Now that our rejection is complete - I can say our dealership was Manchester.

 

[This_one_goes_to_eleven]

I had the roof down last night as was raining and windy here in Kintyre.

The folks in the next pitch had the roof up on their Grand Canyon all night.

I was really quite jealous.

Until about a few hours later when they passed me going the other direction on the A83, with their roof still up and going about 50mph

 

[RockinNRollin]

Now that our rejection is complete - I can say our dealership was Manchester.

I can't speak for the sales side of it, but the service centre guys there are brilliant.

 

[markbrown83]

I can't speak for the sales side of it, but the service centre guys there are brilliant.

Yeah, to be fair, the first time I emailed to reject the vehicle the sales manager just put me in touch with the service manager and he was great. Understood my issue and offered to bring it in for a water test and replacement - which I obviously rejected.

He did comment that he had others coming in with the same problem, they were ordering in the replacement bellows from VW and they were older than those already installed in the van so they refused to install them!

The rejection process was relatively simple and straight forward but they did want to be advised by customer services on the matter. They (VW customer services) thankfully agreed with me which I think helped a lot.

 

[markbrown83]

I had the roof down last night as was raining and windy here in Kintyre.

The folks in the next pitch had the roof up on their Grand Canyon all night.

I was really quite jealous.

Until about a few hours later when they passed me going the other direction on the A83, with their roof still up and going about 50mph

I bet their Grand Canyon roof still didn't leak.