Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Corradobrit]

I bet their Grand Canyon roof still didn't leak.

That gel coat is a known issue, not to mention the bonding. No platform is immune, but VW really hit it out the park with the MY23/24 T6.1.

 

[RockinNRollin]

@markbrown83 I think that's fair enough on the sales guys wanting to take advice; I imagine a rejection is unusual enough they'd want confirmation on what to do! Sounds like they've been good though.

That gel coat is a known issue, not to mention the bonding. No platform is immune, but VW really hit it out the park with the MY23/24 T6.1.

As I've said previously though, it's something that should be easy enough to remedy, even if it takes some treatment applied by the owner to resolve. It's not a fundamental issue like some engine innards that want to self destruct, it's an accessible and fairly straightforward issue. It does beg the question why VW aren't more pragmatic about it, but that's another story. My biggest concern with using aquatex or similar is if the substance has any adverse effect on the materials (fabric/membrane/stitching) which may not be evident in the short term and that's quite possibly why VW aren't advocating anything of that kind.

 

[P600BOO]

@markbrown83 I think that's fair enough on the sales guys wanting to take advice; I imagine a rejection is unusual enough they'd want confirmation on what to do! Sounds like they've been good though.


As I've said previously though, it's something that should be easy enough to remedy, even if it takes some treatment applied by the owner to resolve. It's not a fundamental issue like some engine innards that want to self destruct, it's an accessible and fairly straightforward issue. It does beg the question why VW aren't more pragmatic about it, but that's another story. My biggest concern with using aquatex or similar is if the substance has any adverse effect on the materials (fabric/membrane/stitching) which may not be evident in the short term and that's quite possibly why VW aren't advocating anything of that kind.

Not sure why you are worried Aqua Tex is recommended for use on all types of textiles.
It is marketed by Isabella a leading manufacturer of very expensive awnings and tents.

 

[PurpleLizC789]

There is absolutely no chance that Eurovans have had no failures. Given some of the other threads on their customer service it comes as no surprise that they have come away with that statement.

Is the Eurovans statement just about the 04S bellows? We collected our new van on 31st October 23 and it had the 03S bellows (manufactured Sep23) and it definitely leaks.

To be fair I haven't bothered to go back to Eurovans about this so they wouldn't know about it. We probably wouldn't take it back to them as it's too far to travel, we would choose somewhere nearer. However, like others, I am waiting until it seems like there is a decent replacement and in the meantime, we're going to buy a rainbow cover as we no longer feel confident to put the top up in any rain (just had an 8 day trip away and had to keep the top down for the last 5 days as there was so much heavy rain - it was a bit of a depressing prospect, but we did at least discover that it wasn't as bad as we thought to have the top down and it's certainly much warmer in the winter)

 

[OxonCalifornia]

@markbrown83 I think that's fair enough on the sales guys wanting to take advice; I imagine a rejection is unusual enough they'd want confirmation on what to do! Sounds like they've been good though.


As I've said previously though, it's something that should be easy enough to remedy, even if it takes some treatment applied by the owner to resolve. It's not a fundamental issue like some engine innards that want to self destruct, it's an accessible and fairly straightforward issue. It does beg the question why VW aren't more pragmatic about it, but that's another story. My biggest concern with using aquatex or similar is if the substance has any adverse effect on the materials (fabric/membrane/stitching) which may not be evident in the short term and that's quite possibly why VW aren't advocating anything of that kind.

I was in Halfords today and a massive aerosol can of Fabsil

@markbrown83 I think that's fair enough on the sales guys wanting to take advice; I imagine a rejection is unusual enough they'd want confirmation on what to do! Sounds like they've been good though.


As I've said previously though, it's something that should be easy enough to remedy, even if it takes some treatment applied by the owner to resolve. It's not a fundamental issue like some engine innards that want to self destruct, it's an accessible and fairly straightforward issue. It does beg the question why VW aren't more pragmatic about it, but that's another story. My biggest concern with using aquatex or similar is if the substance has any adverse effect on the materials (fabric/membrane/stitching) which may not be evident in the short term and that's quite possibly why VW aren't advocating anything of that kind.

I was in Halfords today and a massive spray can of Fabsil was only £7.99 so it’s not a moneypit for VW to venture down ? Perhaps there’s some issue at the production of the bellows that some are being treated and some are not if they apply some form of waterproofer?

 

[ArunAlec]

It won't cost VW anything to replace the Bellows . The costs will all be covered by the Bellows manufacturer as per the contract with VW. Bellows, if returned to the manufacturer as per contract, may well be refurbished to the current standard and re- issued. Who knows!

I would guess that there may be a clause in the contract between VW & the bellows manufacturer which would stop VW either carrying out their own fix or sanctioning owners applying sealants.

 

[RockinNRollin]

I would guess that there may be a clause in the contract between VW & the bellows manufacturer which would stop VW either carrying out their own fix or sanctioning owners applying sealants.

Interesting theory but at the end of the day, that wouldn’t be in the interest of the bellows manufacturer as they’ll have to stand the cost of replacements (plus labour costs from VW).

 

[Swislon]

It’s interesting re the statistics from Breeze because as someone suggested there are plenty of us that have yet to test the bellows. I picked our van up in January from Breeze and have yet to use in anger as a camper So have no idea if it leaks or not. I might get the hose out next week and give it a good wetting before our trip to Cornwall.
If it does I can at least register the issue with Breeze but we now have a pop top cover so I can still use it if it leaks.

 

[ArunAlec]

Depends on the specification / budget that VW gave to the bellows manufacturer. If the bellows met the spec then its down to VW.

Guessing that they are manufactured in China?

Makes you wonder exactly what sort of testing VW carry out on outsourced products, seems a similar story to the leaking side windows!

 

[Pattacat]

When we were in reading van centre a couple of months ago (t6 service) and mentioned that we had ordered a 6.1, the salesman there basically admitted there was a problem with the new bellows leaking and suggested we should fabsil the seams as a precaution…. Having said that he then proceeded to tell us that the model of Passat we had previously owned doesn’t exist so I’m not sure how confident I am in taking his advice….

 

[24OCEAN]

I’ve been trying to get a roof issue and now leaking bellows issue since 2022.

 

[OxonCalifornia]

When we were in reading van centre a couple of months ago (t6 service) and mentioned that we had ordered a 6.1, the salesman there basically admitted there was a problem with the new bellows leaking and suggested we should fabsil the seams as a precaution…. Having said that he then proceeded to tell us that the model of Passat we had previously owned doesn’t exist so I’m not sure how confident I am in taking his advice….

Big spray can of Fabsil in Halfords today, only £7. - excellent 5* Reviews too!

Fabsil Aerosol 600ml | Halfords UK

Shop the latest The Fabsil Aerosol 600ml is a great water repellent for your tent and dries to an odourless finish. at Halfords UK

www.halfords.com

 

[Swislon]

Back in the day when I went backpacking the advice when you had a new tent was to seal the seams. I did this on a couple of tents and they never leaked. It was like a rubber solution. Went on wet with your finger and when dry filled all the stitching holes. I had those tents years and in some awful weather. Never a leak.

 

[derek_j_buchanan]

Check the last pic I show in the link in post 2709. 03S leaker and there is a droplet on the vertical seam. It's rare but obviously does occur.

A droplet! Go camp

 

[Corradobrit]

A droplet! Go camp

A droplet on the vertical seams, a Niagara Falls through the horizontals and zippers.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Back in the day when I went backpacking the advice when you had a new tent was to seal the seams. I did this on a couple of tents and they never leaked. It was like a rubber solution. Went on wet with your finger and when dry filled all the stitching holes. I had those tents years and in some awful weather. Never a leak.

They were designed as such though. I had a modern tent fairly recently where during manufacturing they’d missed taping a seam. I was sent some of that rubbery seam sealer and while fiddly to apply it did the job perfectly and the tent never let through another drop!

 

[lohr500]

Big spray can of Fabsil in Halfords today, only £7. - excellent 5* Reviews too!

Fabsil Aerosol 600ml | Halfords UK

Shop the latest The Fabsil Aerosol 600ml is a great water repellent for your tent and dries to an odourless finish. at Halfords UK

www.halfords.com

I've used Aqua Tex on my bellows and so far there have been no further leaks. Two coats inside and out on all seams and stitching. Once dry there are no obvious signs that it has been applied.
I needed one and a half 400ml aerosol cans to do the job.

When looking at spray on waterproofing products I noticed that Fabsil do two versions. Fabsil & Fabsil Gold.

Had I used Fabsil instead of Aqua Tex I would have chosen the Fabsil Gold version over the regular. The Gold version claims to be more concentrated. A bit more expensive, but perhaps worth it in the long run?

Those of you who have used Fabsil, which version did you go for?

 

[OxonCalifornia]

I've used Aqua Tex on my bellows and so far there have been no further leaks. Two coats inside and out on all seams and stitching. Once dry there are no obvious signs that it has been applied.
I needed one and a half 400ml aerosol cans to do the job.

When looking at spray on waterproofing products I noticed that Fabsil do two versions. Fabsil & Fabsil Gold.

Had I used Fabsil instead of Aqua Tex I would have chosen the Fabsil Gold version over the regular. The Gold version claims to be more concentrated. A bit more expensive, but perhaps worth it in the long run?

Those of you who have used Fabsil, which version did you go for?

Did you apply to inside / out of fabric too or just seams & stitching?

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I've used Aqua Tex on my bellows and so far there have been no further leaks. Two coats inside and out on all seams and stitching. Once dry there are no obvious signs that it has been applied.
I needed one and a half 400ml aerosol cans to do the job.

When looking at spray on waterproofing products I noticed that Fabsil do two versions. Fabsil & Fabsil Gold.

Had I used Fabsil instead of Aqua Tex I would have chosen the Fabsil Gold version over the regular. The Gold version claims to be more concentrated. A bit more expensive, but perhaps worth it in the long run?

Those of you who have used Fabsil, which version did you go for?

What do these products actually do though? How do they fill the gaps in the stitching?

 

[lohr500]

Did you apply to inside / out of fabric too or just seams & stitching?

Just to the seams and stitching with around a 1 to 2 inch overspray onto the material either side of each seam or stitching run.

I didn't do the whole fabric as in my case I didn't see any leaks coming through the fabric itself.

Once dry, you couldn't see the oversprayed areas on the fabric.

 

[lohr500]

What do these products actually do though? How do they fill the gaps in the stitching?

That's a good question and I don't know the answer.

The Aqua Tex is a very thin liquid, unlike a traditional thick, glue like seam sealer.

I can only assume that the silicon content in the liquid creeps into the small gaps between the seams and/or stitching and stays there once the volatile carrier content in the spray evaporates away.

All I do know is that in the short term at least it appears to be very effective.

• It might need a repeat application periodically to maintain effectiveness.
• It might work for years without needing another application.
• It might do long term damage to the bellows construction. Although nothing has dissolved, discoloured, or fallen apart in the first week or so after application.

For me, if it works long term or with an annual reproofing, then I'm happy to keep the 04S bellows on our van.
If it only works for a few months then it buys time to establish what VW are going to do about providing a reliable fix.

I'm already in the frame of mind that if I need a new set of bellows and VW refuse to honour my warranty because of the Aqua Tex, I will look at The Small Claims Court as a means of redress.
I hope it doesn't come to this and that VW will see sense in approving the use of Aqua Tex or Fabsil on a case by case basis for those of us who have leaking bellows. Let's face it, can they guarantee a replacement set of 04S bellows will be watertight?

As mentioned by others, Aqua Tex is marketed and recommended by Isabella Awnings. They say it is suitable for all fabrics. In my eyes, Isabella are a reputable manufacturer of premium quality awnings and equipment for caravans, motorhomes, etc. I am no expert, but I can't think there will be any materials in the VW bellows that aren't already in use somewhere on an Isabella or other awning And if the spray was unsuitable for certain types of construction, wouldn't Isabella state this in the instructions?

They even state that the spray can be applied to awning rails on caravans or vehicles to ease the threading through of the awning bead. If the spray attacked or damaged paintwork, they wouldn't be recommending this either.

 

[ParachuteMan]

I've used Aqua Tex on my bellows and so far there have been no further leaks. Two coats inside and out on all seams and stitching. Once dry there are no obvious signs that it has been applied.
I needed one and a half 400ml aerosol cans to do the job.

When looking at spray on waterproofing products I noticed that Fabsil do two versions. Fabsil & Fabsil Gold.

Had I used Fabsil instead of Aqua Tex I would have chosen the Fabsil Gold version over the regular. The Gold version claims to be more concentrated. A bit more expensive, but perhaps worth it in the long run?

Those of you who have used Fabsil, which version did you go for?

I used Fabsil Gold for exactly the reason you put. PS. If you buy direct from Fabsil, it’s £28 a litre. Currently £7-£15 at Halfords ….

 

[ParachuteMan]

For those secretly contemplating a self-help solution, here’s my experience. NB. There is no indication yet that VW will honour any bellows warranty that has been treated by the owner. So it’s a personal decision, which you will make depending on your circumstances and attitude to risk.

Fabsil. The Gold waterproofing is best applied with a spray bottle and cloth to rub it in the fabric. About 2 hours to do all the bellows. It says allow 5 hours to dry. Colourless when dry. Their seam sealer is a sticky, glue-like substance which needs brushing on with the rather pathetic brush supplied. Again, several hours to dry and leaves ”slug trails”. But it does have a taped seam feel when dry.

Aquatex. Following positive feedback on this forum, I applied it to all vertical seams, front, back and sides. I did it like @lohr500 has described. I used one 400ml aerosol can. It’s much easier and quicker than the Fabsil seam sealer and takes 2 hours to dry. Little, if any discolouration.

Total cost for both treatments £45. (Fabsil Gold from Halfords is very cheap)

I‘m now awaiting some good rain and wind to test the bellows in anger. As others have said, I think its the seams that are the main problem, rather than the fabric.

If the treatment doesn't work, well I have my home-made mini topper which covers all the front (the main culprit) and takes 2-3 mins to put on. And as main backup, I have my Comfortz topper which I can now get in place in less than 10 minutes start to finish. Whilst I have registered my minor leaks with the dealer (no real answer yet), I don‘t feel in as much of a hurry to hear from them as I did.

Once again, this is not a recommendation for you to try it yourselves. Its my decision, having weighed up the pros / cons for my circumstances.

 

[stationmaster]

Some initial thoughts on the use of Fabsil or Aquatex...

Not sure on Aquatex, but Fabsil is essentially a coating of Silicone. Gold has twice the silicone content than the standard Fabsil.

In simple terms there appears to be two types of tent/awning materials in common use - The thicker canvas type and the light weight nylon type.

With the canvas type they can leak a bit through the needle holes, from what i read online...this is sorted with a few wet/dry cycles, as the stitching thread will expand as it takes in water, then remain expanded when dry, filling the gaps that were around the threads. This is the theory argued by some tent manufacturers.

But...

If the main source of the leaking is thought to be through the needle holes that the threads have passed through? Seems to be the case with our bellows.

That the threads may expand once wet to lessen leaking? Then remain in their expanded state after a few wet/dry cycles?

Then...treating the threads with a water proofing treatment may not be such a good idea?

Waterproofed/Treated threads will absorb less water, and expand less? (and the diy applied treatment may potentially invalidate warranty?)

Unforeseen consequence of water proofing the threads maybe that they do not expand and that the wet/dry cycle that was "designed" into the bellows is messed up?

Seems logical to me Maybe?

I am no expert...but i thought i would put this out there

 

[This_one_goes_to_eleven]

Some initial thoughts on the use of Fabsil or Aquatex...

Not sure on Aquatex, but Fabsil is essentially a coating of Silicone. Gold has twice the silicone content than the standard Fabsil.

In simple terms there appears to be two types of tent/awning materials in common use - The thicker canvas type and the light weight nylon type.

With the canvas type they can leak a bit through the needle holes, from what i read online...this is sorted with a few wet/dry cycles, as the stitching thread will expand as it takes in water, then remain expanded when dry, filling the gaps that were around the threads. This is the theory argued by some tent manufacturers.

But...

If the main source of the leaking is thought to be through the needle holes that the threads have passed through? Seems to be the case with our bellows.

That the threads may expand once wet to lessen leaking? Then remain in their expanded state after a few wet/dry cycles?

Then...treating the threads with a water proofing treatment may not be such a good idea?

Waterproofed/Treated threads will absorb less water, and expand less? (and the diy applied treatment may potentially invalidate warranty?)

Unforeseen consequence of water proofing the threads maybe that they do not expand and that the wet/dry cycle that was "designed" into the bellows is messed up?

Seems logical to me Maybe?

I am no expert...but i thought i would put this out there

I’m on my third cycle of soaking and mine (untreated) seem to have got worse to be fair.