Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Maidment_Ocean]

Some initial thoughts on the use of Fabsil or Aquatex...

Not sure on Aquatex, but Fabsil is essentially a coating of Silicone. Gold has twice the silicone content than the standard Fabsil.

In simple terms there appears to be two types of tent/awning materials in common use - The thicker canvas type and the light weight nylon type.

With the canvas type they can leak a bit through the needle holes, from what i read online...this is sorted with a few wet/dry cycles, as the stitching thread will expand as it takes in water, then remain expanded when dry, filling the gaps that were around the threads. This is the theory argued by some tent manufacturers.

But...

If the main source of the leaking is thought to be through the needle holes that the threads have passed through? Seems to be the case with our bellows.

That the threads may expand once wet to lessen leaking? Then remain in their expanded state after a few wet/dry cycles?

Then...treating the threads with a water proofing treatment may not be such a good idea?

Waterproofed/Treated threads will absorb less water, and expand less? (and the diy applied treatment may potentially invalidate warranty?)

Unforeseen consequence of water proofing the threads maybe that they do not expand and that the wet/dry cycle that was "designed" into the bellows is messed up?

Seems logical to me Maybe?

I am no expert...but i thought i would put this out there

Surely the threads absorb the Aquatex or Fabsil and expand then dry giving the same impact as a wetting cycle with rain but have absorbed the waterproofing compound so better, at least to my mind.

 

[Corradobrit]

I think the wet ting cycle has been debunked. The fabric is synthetic and not cotton based, same for the thread, so there will be little to no water absorption and resulting swelling of the fibres. If the bellows were comparable to a canvas tent then there would be more people saying. It leaked with a first drenching and then the sealed itself. I have vague memories of one report that this happened.

 

[stationmaster]

I think the wet ting cycle has been debunked. The fabric is synthetic and not cotton based, same for the thread, so there will be little to no water absorption and resulting swelling of the fibres. If the bellows were comparable to a canvas tent then there would be more people saying. It leaked with a first drenching and then the sealed itself. I have vague memories of one report that this happened.

...i'll get my coat

 

[stationmaster]

Surely the threads absorb the Aquatex or Fabsil and expand then dry giving the same impact as a wetting cycle with rain but have absorbed the waterproofing compound so better, at least to my mind.

Possible.

 

[stationmaster]

I’m on my third cycle of soaking and mine (untreated) seem to have got worse to be fair.

Oh.

 

[lohr500]

...i'll get my coat

I think all the input is useful and adds to the discussion.

From my experience, wetting the bellows for a few cycles didn't seem to make any difference.
Same mode of leakage in the same areas after three or four wetting/drying out cycles.

Having applied the Aqua Tex my focus now is twofold.

Firstly to see how effective the waterproofing will be over time, as this will drive my decision on getting the bellows replaced or not.
Secondly to keep pushing VW for approval to use a waterproofing agent on a case by case basis as this would remove any concern over invalidating the warranty for myself and I suspect many others.

 

[stationmaster]

I think all the input is useful and adds to the discussion.

From my experience, wetting the bellows for a few cycles didn't seem to make any difference.
Same mode of leakage in the same areas after three or four wetting/drying out cycles.

Having applied the Aqua Tex my focus now is twofold.

Firstly to see how effective the waterproofing will be over time, as this will drive my decision on getting the bellows replaced or not.
Secondly to keep pushing VW for approval to use a waterproofing agent on a case by case basis as this would remove any concern over invalidating the warranty for myself and I suspect many others.

Thanks.

It is very interesting to hear that you personally tried the wet/dry cycles, as i have been trying this also...i am mid trials at present. No conclusion either way as yet.

Is there any reason you choose Aquatex as opposed to Fabsil? Have you established if Aquatex is a silicone based treatment (as i could not find this out online)?

 

[P600BOO]

Some initial thoughts on the use of Fabsil or Aquatex...

Not sure on Aquatex, but Fabsil is essentially a coating of Silicone. Gold has twice the silicone content than the standard Fabsil.

In simple terms there appears to be two types of tent/awning materials in common use - The thicker canvas type and the light weight nylon type.

With the canvas type they can leak a bit through the needle holes, from what i read online...this is sorted with a few wet/dry cycles, as the stitching thread will expand as it takes in water, then remain expanded when dry, filling the gaps that were around the threads. This is the theory argued by some tent manufacturers.

But...

If the main source of the leaking is thought to be through the needle holes that the threads have passed through? Seems to be the case with our bellows.

That the threads may expand once wet to lessen leaking? Then remain in their expanded state after a few wet/dry cycles?

Then...treating the threads with a water proofing treatment may not be such a good idea?

Waterproofed/Treated threads will absorb less water, and expand less? (and the diy applied treatment may potentially invalidate warranty?)

Unforeseen consequence of water proofing the threads maybe that they do not expand and that the wet/dry cycle that was "designed" into the bellows is messed up?

Seems logical to me Maybe?

I am no expert...but i thought i would put this out there

If you are no expert why post the above and worry owners.
In my opinion and I was in the textile industry for 40+ years, the main reason you get water coming through on seams / stitched areas is wicking. That's why if you were in the scouts you were taught not to put your finger on the tent fabric if it was raining. If you did water wicked through. Todate, a few of us have applied Aqua Tex or similar and it has stopped any water penetration

 

[Elmo3]

I’m not interested in aftermarket, non approved treatments. The fact is, my previous 3 Cali’s didn’t leak. This one does. It’s not fit for purpose. It’s that simple.

 

[stationmaster]

If you are no expert why post the above and worry owners.
In my opinion and I was in the textile industry for 40+ years, the main reason you get water coming through on seams / stitched areas is wicking. That's why if you were in the scouts you were taught not to put your finger on the tent fabric if it was raining. If you did water wicked through. Todate, a few of us have applied Aqua Tex or similar and it has stopped any water penetration

Aquatex/similar may be a solution. Hope so.

 

[P600BOO]

I’m not interested in aftermarket, non approved treatments. The fact is, my previous 3 Cali’s didn’t leak. This one does. It’s not fit for purpose. It’s that simple.

If you're not happy then reject you Cali.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

If you're not happy then reject you Cali.

Why would you do that if you want to keep it but just want it fixed?

 

[stationmaster]

If you're not happy then reject you Cali.

Rejection is a valid option.
Keeping the van with the expectation that VW sort the bellows is valid.
Keeping the van and seeking a diy fix is valid.

 

[P600BOO]

Why would you do that if you want to keep it but just want it fixed?

New Owners have 3 choices.
Reject your Cali
Let VW fit new Bellows and if they still leak you can let them fit a 3rd but if that does not work then.
1. Reject vehicle
2. Try a proofing agent like Aqua Tex
3. Live with the problem until VW come up with a set of bellows that does not leak.
4. I decided to spray the seams with Aqua Tex inside and out and I am now happy to put the pop top in rain.
In all my tests no rain has come through any of the seams or fabric. My last test was in 36 hours of blustery rain, heavy at times and once again perfectly dry.

 

[Blackbrogue1962]

When I look at the bellows on the California Concept with a massive mesh window I can’t help but conclude that VW are prioritising a ‘life-style’ design aimed at leisure camping, rather than producing a 100% watertight bellows that the UK market ’may‘ prefer. While it’s clear that VW recognised that the 03 bellows did have an issue with the seams and which they’ve seemingly tried to address, I remain unconvinced that VW’s perception of the issue is the same as many of those on the forum. Personally, I’ve ‘invested’ in a can of Aquatex and plan to make my bellows as watertight as I can (they’ve not leaked yet but only been out on one rainy night since taking delivery). While I can’t imagine it will happen, I believe VW should consider providing an add on topper for those who prioritise a watertight bellows over the better views etc given by the 3 x windows and zip out front panel.

 

[lohr500]

Thanks.

It is very interesting to hear that you personally tried the wet/dry cycles, as i have been trying this also...i am mid trials at present. No conclusion either way as yet.

Is there any reason you choose Aquatex as opposed to Fabsil? Have you established if Aquatex is a silicone based treatment (as i could not find this out online)?

I went with Aqua Tex because of the positive feedback from @P600BOO .
That being said if you download the SDS (safety data sheets) for both Aqua Tex and Fabsil, they appear to be very similar. Fabsil has < 1% ZIRCONIUM BUTANOLATE in it, which isn't mentioned on the Aqua Tex SDS.

I'm pretty sure Aqua Tex has silicone in it. See the following, where the Isabella guy calls it a silicone spray :

Hvordan pakker jeg mit fortelt rigtig sammen?

www.isabella.net

Interesting in the video that he says they use Aqua Tex during the production process of their awnings.

 

[mikefixex]

I’m due to pick up a new Ocean in May. Assume it’s likely to still have this problem?? Any ideas?

Also the waterproofing of a fabric has always been an ongoing maintenance job for tents, boots jackets etc so I’ve got no issue applying a waterproofing treatment if need be. Has anyone specifically asked VW if this is ok?

 

[stationmaster]

I went with Aqua Tex because of the positive feedback from @P600BOO .
That being said if you download the SDS (safety data sheets) for both Aqua Tex and Fabsil, they appear to be very similar. Fabsil has < 1% ZIRCONIUM BUTANOLATE in it, which isn't mentioned on the Aqua Tex SDS.

I'm pretty sure Aqua Tex has silicone in it. See the following, where the Isabella guy calls it a silicone spray :

Hvordan pakker jeg mit fortelt rigtig sammen?

www.isabella.net

Interesting in the video that he says they use Aqua Tex during the production process of their awnings.

Thanks - really helpful.

As you say, looks like with both, the waterproofing comes from silicone.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Thanks - really helpful.

As you say, looks like with both, the waterproofing comes from silicone.

So essentially silicone fills the voids?

 

[stationmaster]

So essentially silicone fills the voids?

Not sure it fills the voids...one suggestion is it may swell the threads, which in turn fill the voids? Another suggestion is that it stops the wicking that may be present in the untreated threads?

Both are plausible

 

[stationmaster]

I’m due to pick up a new Ocean in May. Assume it’s likely to still have this problem?? Any ideas?

Also the waterproofing of a fabric has always been an ongoing maintenance job for tents, boots jackets etc so I’ve got no issue applying a waterproofing treatment if need be. Has anyone specifically asked VW if this is ok?

It's an unfolding situation Not sure that VW have adopted a firm stance as yet...you could ask them? Adrian Burns at VW executive office: executive.office@vwcv.co.uk

 

[ParachuteMan]

I’m due to pick up a new Ocean in May. Assume it’s likely to still have this problem?? Any ideas?

Also the waterproofing of a fabric has always been an ongoing maintenance job for tents, boots jackets etc so I’ve got no issue applying a waterproofing treatment if need be. Has anyone specifically asked VW if this is ok?

Hi. Plan on having this problem in some degree. Various posters are asking their dealer and / or Adrian at VW EO about waterproofing and warranty invalidation. No definitive answer yet - more non committal

 

[Elmo3]

Of course, everyone is free to make their own decision.
The T6.1 California supplement states:
“Only use water to clean the bellows. Never use household cleaners or impregnating agents”
Whilst the aquatex website talks about the ‘Impregnation process”

 

[stationmaster]

Of course, everyone is free to make their own decision.
The T6.1 California supplement states:
“Only use water to clean the bellows. Never use household cleaners or impregnating agents”
Whilst the aquatex website talks about the ‘Impregnation process”

View attachment 121566View attachment 121567

Always a good idea to read the manual

You may choose to ignore it of course, but at least you have made an informed choice!

 

[stationmaster]

In todays manual reading, we have also learned how to keep the contact surfaces in the roof area clean:

'Commercially available dish water'