Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I would agree, but surely they are not ALL affected If they were, knowledge would be very widespread - many more users on here, other forums and mildly honest dealers would all know it? This thread is in my opinion based on hearsay and theory (other than the unverified VW communication) about where the fault lies, what the genuine solution is, or even how to identify vans that are affected. This is quite expected, as we don't have all the facts and data.

Just playing devils advocate - the fault could be a subset of all v3/4 bellows fitted due to a fault that occurred in extraordinary circumstances. In this case, I would NOT expect VW to pay for a blanket replacement, when a large proportion of them are NOT faulty - at the very least, what an unnecessary creation of waste?

Interesting theory. I’ve not come across anyone with a 2023 Cali that doesn’t leak yet though so I must admit I’m sceptical.

 

[andyinluton]

Interesting theory. I’ve not come across anyone with a 2023 Cali that doesn’t leak yet though so I must admit I’m sceptical.

Mine doesn't. I don't know exact date of manufacture, but it's a MY23 delivered to the dealer December 22 with the double skinned bellows.

Worth noting that almost exactly a year ago when I took delivery no one had mentioned any leaks that I am aware of. Certainly not in any great numbers - don't forget since 2010 there have always been occasional leaky bellows reported.

It wasn't until about Jun / July 23 that it became apparent that there was more than just the odd one leaking, I wonder if some of the early ones were manufactured slightly differently.

 

[Corradobrit]

Mine doesn't. I don't know exact date of manufacture, but it's a MY23 delivered to the dealer December 22 with the double skinned bellows.

Worth noting that almost exactly a year ago when I took delivery no one had mentioned any leaks that I am aware of. Certainly not in any great numbers - don't forget since 2010 there have always been occasional leaky bellows reported.

It wasn't until about Jun / July 23 that it became apparent that there was more than just the odd one leaking, I wonder if some of the early ones were manufactured slightly differently.

I have an early one, pre mid Nov 2022 and it leaks like a sieve.

 

[andyinluton]

Interesting theory. I’ve not come across anyone with a 2023 Cali that doesn’t leak yet though so I must admit I’m sceptical.

You will probably also find that people are reluctant to state that theirs don't leak for fear of being told that they are wrong.
The few of us that have previously said it, have been drowned out by multiple postings from the same people insisting that they all leak.

 

[CampervanFlattie]

I have an early one, pre mid Nov 2022 and it leaks like a sieve.

Ditto

 

[Do we or don't we]

I would agree, but surely they are not ALL affected If they were, knowledge would be very widespread - many more users on here, other forums and mildly honest dealers would all know it? This thread is in my opinion based on hearsay and theory (other than the unverified VW communication) about where the fault lies, what the genuine solution is, or even how to identify vans that are affected. This is quite expected, as we don't have all the facts and data.

Just playing devils advocate - the fault could be a subset of all v3/4 bellows fitted due to a fault that occurred in extraordinary circumstances. In this case, I would NOT expect VW to pay for a blanket replacement, when a large proportion of them are NOT faulty - at the very least, what an unnecessary creation of waste?

Hmm__I can see what you are saying and I agree up to a point however if "a large proportion of them are NOT faulty" I would be very surprised that VW would go to the trouble of making the changes they have to the new bellows just to pacify the relatively small number of people that have contributed to this and other threads on various forums. I would suggest that actually a large proportion of them ARE faulty and it is a small proportion of them that are NOT, but then I am one of the ones that had to get up at 3.00 am and move all my bedding down because I had rain dripping in through the seams. Interestingly the guy that picked up his van at same time as me also had leaky bellows and has posted on this thread which sort of makes you think if it is only effecting a small number of vehicles what are the chances that two of us driving off in our new vans within half an hour of each other both suffer the same issue.

 

[ParachuteMan]

Mine doesn't. I don't know exact date of manufacture, but it's a MY23 delivered to the dealer December 22 with the double skinned bellows.

Worth noting that almost exactly a year ago when I took delivery no one had mentioned any leaks that I am aware of. Certainly not in any great numbers - don't forget since 2010 there have always been occasional leaky bellows reported.

It wasn't until about Jun / July 23 that it became apparent that there was more than just the odd one leaking, I wonder if some of the early ones were manufactured slightly differently.

From my research, I have an untested theory that VW use more than one bellows supplier. One has not followed the VW specs exactly, resulting in a proportion of leakers. And the VW / supplier SLA says they have to replace the bellows. So they provide the same version...which is why people had several leakers one after the other. Untested theory here - but I‘ve seen similar in other situations.

 

[Hawthorn37]

I would agree, but surely they are not ALL affected If they were, knowledge would be very widespread - many more users on here, other forums and mildly honest dealers would all know it? This thread is in my opinion based on hearsay and theory (other than the unverified VW communication) about where the fault lies, what the genuine solution is, or even how to identify vans that are affected. This is quite expected, as we don't have all the facts and data.

Just playing devils advocate - the fault could be a subset of all v3/4 bellows fitted due to a fault that occurred in extraordinary circumstances. In this case, I would NOT expect VW to pay for a blanket replacement, when a large proportion of them are NOT faulty - at the very least, what an unnecessary creation of waste?

Hmm - for hearsay I’m taking it you mean the majority who’ve contributed to this thread and other threads on this forum (not in our case - single skin MY22), or maybe California Chris who has mentioned the issue in his Youtube site chat last month?

I’m also speculating that there are Cali owners out there who are fair weather campers, and don’t yet know their van will leak if exposed to the ‘wrong type of rain’ .

As this fault is not safety related, I understand that VW aren’t obliged to do a recall to check the bellows (and replace if defective). I’m proposing though that from a customer service viewpoint surely they’d be better to get on the front foot rather than having customers discover the problem, then they fix it - after some to and fro??

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

From my research, I have an untested theory that VW use more than one bellows supplier. One has not followed the VW specs exactly, resulting in a proportion of leakers. And the VW / supplier SLA says they have to replace the bellows. So they provide the same version...which is why people had several leakers one after the other. Untested theory here - but I‘ve seen similar in other situations.

I don't think they have multiple bellows suppliers. In the scheme of things the overall numbers are tiny (less than 20k produced).

Having been through the wringer with this issue it's clear VW didn't find an early failure pattern. Hence the multiple iterations to find a watertight version.

Do I think every early produced bellows leaks - maybe not. But I reckon there's loads of folks out there that haven't camped in the "wrong" rain.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

From my research, I have an untested theory that VW use more than one bellows supplier. One has not followed the VW specs exactly, resulting in a proportion of leakers. And the VW / supplier SLA says they have to replace the bellows. So they provide the same version...which is why people had several leakers one after the other. Untested theory here - but I‘ve seen similar in other situations.

I meant to ask. What failure rate is your research showing. And is that the actual rate you've calculated or the extrapolated one (I think you doubled the numbers)?

 

[RockinNRollin]

I'm not convinced there's that much variation in quality control and although it is possible there are multiple suppliers, I'm not convinced the volume manufactured would incentivise multiple suppliers? I think it's far more likely the "non-leakers" simply haven't experienced "the right" conditions, either through being fair-weather campers or as a result of the actual weather conditions. In my case, early doors the bellows seemed to hold up to some fairly wet and breezy weather (albeit with the tail of the van pointed into the wind) and I had some false confidence, but a short while later in far more benign conditions it leaked.

 

[andyinluton]

I think it's far more likely the "non-leakers" simply haven't experienced "the right" conditions, either through being fair-weather campers or as a result of the actual weather conditions. I

Typical condescending post from someone that doesn't believe that some bellows don't leak.
As I said earlier anyone that states their bellows don't leak gets drowned out by the disbelievers.

Approx 30 nights camping in 2023 from March through to November, varying from the North of Scotland to the South of Spain. Its been wet enough for the seams on our drive away awning to leak, too wet to leave the roll out awning out for fear of it pooling water in spite of it being lowered at one end but not a drop through the roof bellows. The only water ingress we have had of any sort is windblown horizontal stuff via the vents in the top corners, exactly the same as we've had on our previous two Californias.

Is there any sort of special rain that I might have missed?

 

[RockinNRollin]

Typical condescending post from someone that doesn't believe that some bellows don't leak.
As I said earlier anyone that states their bellows don't leak gets drowned out by the disbelievers.

Approx 30 nights camping in 2023 from March through to November, varying from the North of Scotland to the South of Spain. Its been wet enough for the seams on our drive away awning to leak, too wet to leave the roll out awning out for fear of it pooling water in spite of it being lowered at one end but not a drop through the roof bellows. The only water ingress we have had of any sort is windblown horizontal stuff via the vents in the top corners, exactly the same as we've had on our previous two Californias.

Is there any sort of special rain that I might have missed?

Not intentionally condescending at all; I didn't state certainty in any of this (and nor do I think can anyone, other than the inner inner circle of VW) , just what I think is likely based on the information on both here and Calibord. It's also possible there are various iterations of the same bellows beyond the "C" type of the 03S generation which may affect performance. We simply don't know.

 

[andyinluton]

Not intentionally condescending at all; I didn't state certainty in any of this (and nor do I think can anyone, other than the inner inner circle of VW) , just what I think is likely based on the information on both here and Calibord. It's also possible there are various iterations of the same bellows beyond the "C" type of the 03S generation which may affect performance. We simply don't know.

Theres got to be less than a 50% reported leakage rate as @ParachuteMan with the inside information still had enough headroom in the numbers to arbitarilly double the amount that leaked.

My feeling is that there is a dodgy batch of thread used for sewing that has either been waxed too much or not enough so it doesn't expand once wet, I presume the stuff comes in reels that don't necessarily get used in the order that they are delivered.

Either that or there's a machinist that has been doing something slightly different to their co-workers.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Theres got to be less than a 50% reported leakage rate as @ParachuteMan with the inside information still had enough headroom in the numbers to arbitarilly double the amount that leaked.

My feeling is that there is a dodgy batch of thread used for sewing that has either been waxed too much or not enough so it doesn't expand once wet, I presume the stuff comes in reels that don't necessarily get used in the order that they are delivered.

Either that or there's a machinist that has been doing something slightly different to their co-workers.

Possibly, although there also seems to be a sealing tape present in the latest bellows, maybe just belt and braces to the thread? Who knows.

 

[stationmaster]

We know for certain that a sufficient number of bellows leak for VW to redesign the bellows.
Hopefully the redesign is such that it addresses the matter.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Why does anyone really care about any of this he said/she said? You’re all just going round in circles. If your bellows leak get them replaced and then get on with your life! It sounds like problem solved to me. The rest of this is just pointless BS.

 

[stationmaster]

Why does anyone really care about any of this he said/she said? You’re all just going round in circles. If your bellows leak get them replaced and then get on with your life! It sounds like problem solved to me. The rest of this is just pointless BS.

I already said that - so why have you bothered to say it again? Seems pointless BS to me

 

[ParachuteMan]

Interesting theory. I’ve not come across anyone with a 2023 Cali that doesn’t leak yet though so I must admit I’m sceptical.

Theres got to be less than a 50% reported leakage rate as @ParachuteMan with the inside information still had enough headroom in the numbers to arbitarilly double the amount that leaked.

My feeling is that there is a dodgy batch of thread used for sewing that has either been waxed too much or not enough so it doesn't expand once wet, I presume the stuff comes in reels that don't necessarily get used in the order that they are delivered.

Either that or there's a machinist that has been doing something slightly different to their co-workers.

I wondered this too. And whether some machines were using new needles which were a few microns thicker than they should be. Wasn't there a comment from someone who worked at Toyota where there was an ongoing quality problem with something coming loose / adrift and it turned out there was one guy using his own mix of glue instead of the mandated one..

 

[Do we or don't we]

Why does anyone really care about any of this he said/she said? You’re all just going round in circles. If your bellows leak get them replaced and then get on with your life! It sounds like problem solved to me. The rest of this is just pointless BS.

I love this forum to me it's a forum of two parts, one part is a vast repository of technical information with some very knowledgeable people willing to share that knowlege and make life a little easier for people, I get a warm feeling whenever i see a post were someone asks a question and within minutes receives a solution especially when it works. The other part of the forum is more about discussing particular issues like this thread this can get interesting we all have an opinion and VW makes it easy for us by not actually providing us with real information so everything is pure conjecture. But, and this is the important bit I can decide what I want to read as can everyone else so what i don't understant is why anyone would want to reply to a post in such a negative way surely you would just stop visiting the thread or am I missing something.

 

[myvanrodney]

I love this forum to me it's a forum of two parts, one part is a vast repository of technical information with some very knowledgeable people willing to share that knowlege and make life a little easier for people, I get a warm feeling whenever i see a post were someone asks a question and within minutes receives a solution especially when it works. The other part of the forum is more about discussing particular issues like this thread this can get interesting we all have an opinion and VW makes it easy for us by not actually providing us with real information so everything is pure conjecture. But, and this is the important bit I can decide what I want to read as can everyone else so what i don't understant is why anyone would want to reply to a post in such a negative way surely you would just stop visiting the thread or am I missing something.

Absolutely agree. We all love campervans and any opportunity to chat about our hobby is all part of the experience.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Theres got to be less than a 50% reported leakage rate as @ParachuteMan with the inside information still had enough headroom in the numbers to arbitarilly double the amount that leaked.

My feeling is that there is a dodgy batch of thread used for sewing that has either been waxed too much or not enough so it doesn't expand once wet, I presume the stuff comes in reels that don't necessarily get used in the order that they are delivered.

Either that or there's a machinist that has been doing something slightly different to their co-workers.

I don't subscribe to dodgy thread or hot needles and oversized stitch holes.

The latest bellows have special seam sealers integrated into the seams which I expect pretty much guarantees a watertight result.

They haven't just fixed a QC problem but rather addressed a design issue.

 

[WelshGas]

Testing the new design for the next Generation California. Nothing like Real World Testing.

 

[andyinluton]

I don't subscribe to dodgy thread or hot needles and oversized stitch holes.

The latest bellows have special seam sealers integrated into the seams which I expect pretty much guarantees a watertight result.

They managed to get 99% of them watertight for the 12 years before the MY23 without the need for special seam sealers….

The sealer may well be a fix but it shouldn’t have been needed.

 

[Corradobrit]

They managed to get 99% of them watertight for the 12 years before the MY23 without the need for special seam sealers….

The sealer may well be a fix but it shouldn’t have been needed.

Different fabrics possibly requiring alternative sealing and stitching treatments.