Losing oil somewhere?

[2into1]

If it was the EGR solely at fault would you please, please explain why only SOME 180 engines are affected?
I look forward to your expert opinion.

NB CFCA engines from MY 2010 to 2012 are accepted as having a fault, admitted as such by VW.

Not the case in this instance.

I await your response with bated breath.

Here we go.....

I thought as a medic you'd be able to understand the idea that not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer yet we accept that smoking causes lung cancer?
So not every combination of fate, driving patterns etc leads to egr disintegration and death of these engines but the early dimise of these engines is usually always down to disintegrating egrs.

We've seen photos of the egrs cut open to see half the fins missing. We know the hardness of the burnt fins.
We seen worn cylinder bores lined effectively diamond hard particals.
We know vw have made repeated attempts to modify top the egr to stop the fins failing. The /d cooler only appeared in 2015.
They have acknowledged all of the above in technical docs and have compensated fleet buyers.

I hope your breath is sufficiently bated.

 

[egena]

Don’t be. No evidence to suggest any engines subsequent to the 180 (ie. 204) are affected, and plenty of debate over whether the 180 is affected beyond 2012 in any case. There will always be a couple of faults reported on any engine but nothing to worry about with the 204, enjoy your Cali.

Thanks for the reassurance, I appreciate it

Envoyé de mon SM-N950F en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[WelshGas]

What fault do they accept can be present in this engine?

A manufacturing fault involving the engine block.

 

[WelshGas]

Here we go.....

I thought as a medic you'd be able to understand the idea that not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer yet we accept that smoking causes lung cancer?
So not every combination of fate, driving patterns etc leads to egr disintegration and death of these engines but the early dimise of these engines is usually always down to disintegrating egrs.

We've seen photos of the egrs cut open to see half the fins missing. We know the hardness of the burnt fins.
We seen worn cylinder bores lined effectively diamond hard particals.
We know vw have made repeated attempts to modify top the egr to stop the fins failing. The /d cooler only appeared in 2015.
They have acknowledged all of the above in technical docs and have compensated fleet buyers.

I hope your breath is sufficiently bated.

No, unfortunately not.
If smoking was the primary cause, everyone who ever smoked would develope lung cancer. Doesn’t happen I’m afraid.
Try again?

 

[2into1]

No, unfortunately not.
If smoking was the primary cause, everyone who ever smoked would develope lung cancer. Doesn’t happen I’m afraid.
Try again?

That is so incoherent, I don't know where to start. It seems the guy who won't accept the 180 engine failure link to the egr denies smoking causes lung cancer. He may have carefully chosen his words to give himself a let out clause, but that is basically his argument.

 

[WelshGas]

That is so incoherent, I don't know where to start. It seems the guy who won't accept the 180 engine failure link to the egr denies smoking causes lung cancer. He may have carefully chosen his words to give himself a let out clause, but that is basically his argument.

If you wish to twist my comments to suit your flawed argument, then be my guest.

 

[clarinetbcn]

That is so incoherent, I don't know where to start. It seems the guy who won't accept the 180 engine failure link to the egr denies smoking causes lung cancer. He may have carefully chosen his words to give himself a let out clause, but that is basically his argument.

This exchange with WG re: EGR catastrophic failures gets repeated about twice a year, and while most would rather have dental surgery without anesthetic than read this again, it is important for new members who have joined since the last round to have the opportunity to form their own opinion of his advice, so thanks for taking it on once again.

 

[WelshGas]

This exchange with WG re: EGR catastrophic failures gets repeated about twice a year, and while most would rather have dental surgery without anesthetic than read this again, it is important for new members who have joined since the last round to have the opportunity to form their own opinion of his advice, so thanks for taking it on once again.

And it will continue to be repeated.
When someone can explain why the EGR does not cause excessive oil consumption in ALL 180 engines, why some , in fact the majority, DO NOT have this problem then I will cease to challenge the assumption by some that the EGR is the only cause.
Over to you "experts" on this matter.

Please note that I have never said the EGR may not contribute to the problem but something else is involved otherwise the only 180s still moving would be those with a replacement engine.

 

[B J G]

I think you will find the EGR failure is resulting in metal particles from the cooler circulating in the oil and damaging the cylinder bores / pistons beyond economical repair.

This was about EGR failures later than early break up ones.

 

[Legin]

Im going to weigh in as it hopefully helps new readers to understand facts vs opinions.

Fact 1 180 twin turbo runs aluminium cooler
Fact 2 140 runs steel cooler
Fact 3 aluminium 180 cooler have suffered internal erosion corrosion resulting in Alumium Oxide entering the combustion chamber and machining away the bore
Fact 4 stainless steel cooler engines have no documented issues with bore failure
Fact 5 T6 199 onwards use a steel cooler so no risk like the 180 (however Im not sure if early T6 204 was so equipped)

Based on the facts above 180 engines can suffer premature bore failure and 140 and 199 onwards dont.

Now to the supposition which incidentally VW will know the facts on. There is no question that a high temperature corrosion specialist in an oil company could work this out and probably has for VW. I know this as I worked with them, its where SAAB turbine failure and BMW nikasil bore failure root cause was identified for example. Cant say more.

WG says why not all 180 ,s ? Something in the environment the cooler sees is variable is the reason. Could be anything from the fuel to how its driven. However my opinion is that the egr fails at a specific operating temperature rather like a phenomenon known as "metal dusting" and these aren't always fully understood.
So the ones that fail may have the egr valve stuck open or closed or a water cooling issue for example.

 

[WelshGas]

Im going to weigh in as it hopefully helps new readers to understand facts vs opinions.

Fact 1 180 twin turbo runs aluminium cooler
Fact 2 140 runs steel cooler
Fact 3 aluminium 180 cooler have suffered internal erosion corrosion resulting in Alumium Oxide entering the combustion chamber and machining away the bore
Fact 4 stainless steel cooler engines have no documented issues with bore failure
Fact 5 T6 199 onwards use a steel cooler so no risk like the 180 (however Im not sure if early T6 204 was so equipped)

Based on the facts above 180 engines can suffer premature bore failure and 140 and 199 onwards dont.

Now to the supposition which incidentally VW will know the facts on. There is no question that a high temperature corrosion specialist in an oil company could work this out and probably has for VW. I know this as I worked with them, its where SAAB turbine failure and BMW nikasil bore failure root cause was identified for example. Cant say more.

WG says why not all 180 ,s ? Something in the environment the cooler sees is variable is the reason. Could be anything from the fuel to how its driven. However my opinion is that the egr fails at a specific operating temperature rather like a phenomenon known as "metal dusting" and these aren't always fully understood.
So the ones that fail may have the egr valve stuck open or closed or a water cooling issue for example.

Thank you. As I have suggested and maintained. There is another factor/factors involved in this problem. VW may know/not know the actual chain of events but the combination , which leads to disintegration of the EGR, cannot be that common overall otherwise VW wouldn’t have been able to side step the issue.

Also, this is NOT the same as the 2010/2011 problem with the CFCA engine that was accepted by VW as due to a manufacturing problem and subsequently rectified. However there were a number of such vehicles , low milage Californias, Caravelles and conversions, that did not exhibit problems until years later. Originally they would have been covered by the warranty, but outside warranty VW would only offer a contribution. See the accompanying VW TPI.

So there are 2 problems with the CFCA engine in the 180. One has been addressed by VW , as it affected a certain batch of vehicles, and the other is intermittent affecting certain vehicles where certain conditions lead to the EGR disintegration.

 

[Legin]

Interesting. The initial problem seems to focus on heavily on software as part of the repair. Was it bore wash or ring metallurgy , maybe both ? The bulletin is written suitably evasive incase it got into the wrong hands. Just says what it isnt not what it is.

 

[clarinetbcn]

So there are 2 problems with the CFCA engine in the 180. One has been addressed by VW , as it affected a certain batch of vehicles, and the other is intermittent affecting certain vehicles where certain conditions lead to the EGR disintegration.

Finally some clarity. Since VW is not able, or willing, to identify the "certain conditions" that lead to EGR disintegration and catastrophic engine failure on post 2012 180s, it becomes a crap shoot for the owner, especially second hand buyers. As we have seen from posts on the forum, even having a "D" EGR fitted by a previous owner is no guarantee that the damage has not already been done. It would seem that the best practice would be to prefer the engines that VW fitted with steel EGR coolers (see post #35), until VW can come up with an explanation for, and take financial responsibility for, the "certain circumstances" that lead to corrosion of the aluminum 180 EGR and the destruction of the engine.

 

[WelshGas]

Finally some clarity. Since VW is not able, or willing, to identify the "certain conditions" that lead to EGR disintegration and catastrophic engine failure on post 2012 180s, it becomes a crap shoot for the owner, especially second hand buyers. As we have seen from posts on the forum, even having a "D" EGR fitted by a previous owner is no guarantee that the damage has not already been done. It would seem that the best practice would be to prefer the engines that VW fitted with steel EGR coolers (see post #35), until VW can come up with an explanation for, and take financial responsibility for, the "certain circumstances" that lead to corrosion of the aluminum 180 EGR and the destruction of the engine.

Yes and No.

2010/11 vehicles - Yes unless you are totally aware of the problem and have a very good deal as all 180's within the engine number range will be affected.

Post 2011, is a different scenario as engine failure is not guaranteed and in fact it is very difficult to get an actual number of such vehicles as the two groups are lumped together frequently, but once again due diligence on behalf of the buyer is paramount. VW is not alone with other manufacturers having similar variable engine failures on certain vehicles.
As above, a Transporter 204 from 2016 with similar symptoms.

 

[Christine Kirk]

Just to add another thing into the discussion, our 199 2019 Ocean seemed to have a high oil consumption from day one, which we commented on. At the first service the VW Technician discovered a leak of engine oil from the Bell housing and it was thought that the oil was coming out through the rear main flange, ( he said it was a known fault). The flywheel flange studs can leak oil it appears. The agent ( Sheffield ) then fixed it by removing splitting the box off the engine and re sealing the flange studs. Oil consumption disappeared immediately, although it does need topping up between services. Just thought you might like to know!

 

[LRGS253]

Get an oil analysis done by Miller Oils. £40 well spent for the double kit. The condition of the oil will give you an indication to the failure. There technical support is excellent.

 

[Alied]

First part of this video shows a BiTDi engine.

 

[Jukebox70]

Update. After a wait for around a month to get my van into a garage. 2 hours later my van is ready, they have drained the old oil out refilled and weighed the new oil, said for me to drive 621 miles and then book the van back in, if the oil light comes on before 621 miles book it in, do not top up with oil. £297.31 for this service. I have the all in warranty deal, but still had to pay for the diagnostics and new oil. They have said they will refund what i've paid if the problem is covered by the warranty.

 

[Vagophile]

What is the significance of 621 miles?

 

[Kernowboy]

What is the significance of 621 miles?

VW class oil useage up to 1lt per 1000km as normal; thus fill it up with known amount, drive for 1000km and see how much is left. 621 miles = 1000km.

 

[Jukebox70]

VW class oil useage up to 1lt per 1000km as normal; thus fill it up with known amount, drive for 1000km and see how much is left. 621 miles = 1000

VW class oil useage up to 1lt per 1000km as normal; thus fill it up with known amount, drive for 1000km and see how much is left. 621 miles = 1000km.

That makes sense then, although my van has never needed topping up between services.

 

[travelrobrob]

Update. After a wait for around a month to get my van into a garage. 2 hours later my van is ready, they have drained the old oil out refilled and weighed the new oil, said for me to drive 621 miles and then book the van back in, if the oil light comes on before 621 miles book it in, do not top up with oil. £297.31 for this service. I have the all in warranty deal, but still had to pay for the diagnostics and new oil. They have said they will refund what i've paid if the problem is covered by the warranty.

I had the same and also had to do 1 or two of these visits and then monitor the oil usage...ended up rebuilding the engine and has been perfect since. Once I followed the procedure they outlined and showed the same oil burning behavior it was sorted out without further questions.

 

[Perfectos]

I had the same and also had to do 1 or two of these visits and then monitor the oil usage...ended up rebuilding the engine and has been perfect since. Once I followed the procedure they outlined and showed the same oil burning behavior it was sorted out without further questions.

Did you have to pay for the oil changes (you intermate you had several)

 

[Jukebox70]

I've been trying to replicate the drive down to southern Spain ie cruise control at 70 on the motorway, so far trying to clock up the 621 miles the garage instructed me to do, i've done close to 300, up to now don't seem to be using any oil??? I don't get it. One minute using a litre every 100 or so miles to nil. The only thing that's different is going to Spain the van was fully loaded. Would that make a difference?

 

[Perfectos]

Load it to the gunwales and see if that ,ales a difference?