Off grid 230V power

[Eber123]

Hello,

All the electricity in the camper is not my field of expertise - more - I think it is even rather confusing. That starts with the replacement of the AGM battery with a Licitum battery (LifePo4) and continues with the usage of the power bank.

I looked it up a wee bit and found out that the IT-Net and the TN-Net are not compatible with each other (at least not from the security point of few).

The way I understood is, if the power sockets in the camper get the electricity from the power bank (which is connected directly to the outside EHU point) that when 2x metallic items (eg kettle and toaster) are defective and one person touche both devices at the same time, this person will be electrocuted because neither the power bank's fuse nor the camper RCD will switch off the electricity.

Ok, that is not good.

But, for us, realistically is very, very unlikely to happen. Why is this?

• We never use the 230V sockets in the camper (on hock up or not)
• We don't have any 230V devices in use in the camper

We just use the EcoFlow Delta 2 to recharge the VW leisure battery. And the easiest way doing this is to connect a power cable from the Delta 2 to the EHU of the camper.

I am in contact with EcoFlow (but it is not an EcoFlow specific issue, all power banks have the same challenge), but as expected we are not getting anywhere at the moment.

Regards,
Eberhard

 

[Calfe600]

Hi Eberard, you make a very good point about earthing - that’s something I hadnt considered and will explore. I have an earth rod and cable for my petrol generator but not for the Powerbank?

We only have our current van for another 6 months, the replacement has lithium batteries on board with an inverter, I will pose a question to the dealer about earth when using the Powerbank as an EHU. The US version of the Anker actually has an EHU socket on the back so there must be a safe solution?

Always something new to learn and this forum is a great source of info.

Thanks

Alun

 

[Calfe600]

I have checked my 240v sockets on hookup today using a Martindale tester and all was ok. I tried with the Anker connected as EHU and the Martindale indicated an earth fault…. The last time I used the Martindale was on my last GC and it showed reverse polarity on some sockets which turned out to be accurate, so I have faith in it.

Reading up on the use of battery packs, double insulated devices are fine but there is indeed no earth for the van circuit - so I have fired off a query to Anker and will share their response. I know there is RCD protection, but want to be safe rather than sorry!

And I thought it was all so simple…..

 

[JJ Gonepaddlin]

Hello,

All the electricity in the camper is not my field of expertise - more - I think it is even rather confusing. That starts with the replacement of the AGM battery with a Licitum battery (LifePo4) and continues with the usage of the power bank.

I looked it up a wee bit and found out that the IT-Net and the TN-Net are not compatible with each other (at least not from the security point of few).

The way I understood is, if the power sockets in the camper get the electricity from the power bank (which is connected directly to the outside EHU point) that when 2x metallic items (eg kettle and toaster) are defective and one person touche both devices at the same time, this person will be electrocuted because neither the power bank's fuse nor the camper RCD will switch off the electricity.

Ok, that is not good.

But, for us, realistically is very, very unlikely to happen. Why is this?

• We never use the 230V sockets in the camper (on hock up or not)
• We don't have any 230V devices in use in the camper

We just use the EcoFlow Delta 2 to recharge the VW leisure battery. And the easiest way doing this is to connect a power cable from the Delta 2 to the EHU of the camper.

I am in contact with EcoFlow (but it is not an EcoFlow specific issue, all power banks have the same challenge), but as expected we are not getting anywhere at the moment.

Regards,
Eberhard

Hi Eberhart
Your post was very helpful as I also find campervan electrics very confusing. I am thinking of getting an EcoFlow Delta 2 for when we are off grid and using it to recharge the recharge the leisure battery via the EHU as you do. However I would like to use a 230v socket occasionally. Is the safest way to do that to use the 230v socket on the Delta 2?
Thanks
JJ

 

[mpill990]

It is sort of simple but you can make it complicated if you want to.
FYI I have a degree in electrical engineering but I wouldn't say I'm an expert..

In simple terms mains electricity has a potential current return route via earth because mains supply transformers are generally connected/bonded to earth at its central connection point (star or delta). This gives us the opportunity to trip fuses or circuit breakers if current is connected to earth during a fault condition. This especially when you consider 3 phase power supplies is more safe..

Your solar generation pack is not connected to earth (more on that later) meaning that current to earth will not trip fuses or circuit breakers- this is not necessarily unsafe.

Current will only flow if there is a connection between live and negative in your solar pack.
So you will in theory only get an unsafe condition if you get between live and neutral on your van 240v outlets.

So in practice it's pretty safe.

You can complicate this a lot if you try and earth your solar pack and your van. You can in theory do this but you will need some fairly sophisticated testing equipment to ensure that you get this right and you will also need to establish if your solar pack's negative is bonded to it's frame)I'm not sure if I would do this if I was a manufacturer but there might be an EU reg saying they have to..

So if you use it as Eber's example above you'll be fine.
Don't whatever you do mix it with on-site hook-up unless you like big blue flashes and lots of smoke

Sorry if this is a bit of a garbled response but I tried to minimise the word count..


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[mpill990]

This is not correct- you'll only get a shock if you get between live and neutral on your solar pack..

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[Stuartosmith]

I used a Jackery 1000 and loved it, then upgraded to a larger (and heavier!) Bluetti AC200 Max which I charge from the 12V when driving and switch to solar when stationary. It's a great solution and it means I now use a microwave and camping kettle on my travels. I can also while away those rainy days watching TV / Netflix or playing games on a gaming laptop without any power concerns.

Using AC200 max as well

 

[thesquirrelpatrol]

Guys RCDs provide the necessary protection against direct contact here. If the RCD detects any current leakage above the threshold (30ma for example) then it trips. RCDs are commonly used as the sole method of protection against shock in a variety of circumstances where a point of earthing is either not possible or not reliable - in a TT system or on a boat or for temporary generation equipment.
I would add that it is unlikely that battery power stations would be allowed to be sold anywhere without some form of integral fault protection. I am still waiting on confirmation of the form that this takes but will update once received.

 

[thesquirrelpatrol]

Hi Eberard, you make a very good point about earthing - that’s something I hadnt considered and will explore. I have an earth rod and cable for my petrol generator but not for the Powerbank?

We only have our current van for another 6 months, the replacement has lithium batteries on board with an inverter, I will pose a question to the dealer about earth when using the Powerbank as an EHU. The US version of the Anker actually has an EHU socket on the back so there must be a safe solution?

Always something new to learn and this forum is a great source of info.

Thanks

Alun

Point of note here that an inverter set up would be the same as a power station as there is 230v available onboard the van with no earthing point so fault protection would be provided by RCD

 

[mpill990]

I copied this from Ecoflow's Q&A.

This means that RCD protection will not work as there there is no earth connectivity.

Your protection will be via 'standard' overcurrent circuit breakers (probably rated at 10 or 15 amps).

This is not inherently unsafe but it might be a consideration for some.

The safest mains in your van is always going to be via on-site hook-up with a RCD especially if you run a power cable outside for your alfresco curling tongs or nose hair trimmers

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[thesquirrelpatrol]

I copied this from Ecoflow's Q&A.

This means that RCD protection will not work as there there is no earth connectivity.

Your protection will be via 'standard' overcurrent circuit breakers (probably rated at 10 or 15 amps).

This is not inherently unsafe but it might be a consideration for some.

The safest mains in your van is always going to be via on-site hook-up with a RCD especially if you run a power cable outside for your alfresco curling tongs or nose hair trimmers

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Correct me if I am wrong but an RCD operates by detecting a difference in load between live and neutral. Any difference would be indicative of a leakage of current to earth and provided that the amount of difference is greater than how ever many milliamperes the RCD is rated at this will operate and disconnect the supply. In this way it would not require an earth. Just want to clarify the difference between an RCD and an RCBO (which also provides over current and short circuit protection and would have an earth flying lead to the earth bar).

Also my understanding was that circuit breakers or fuses were there to protect the cables/installation rather than anyone getting a shock, acceptable disconnection times going from 0.4 to 5 secs depending on the rating of the circuit. RCDs were introduced to protect people from shock.

 

[mpill990]

Correct me if I am wrong but an RCD operates by detecting a difference in load between live and neutral. Any difference would be indicative of a leakage of current to earth and provided that the amount of difference is greater than how ever many milliamperes the RCD is rated at this will operate and disconnect the supply. In this way it would not require an earth. Just want to clarify the difference between an RCD and an RCBO (which also provides over current and short circuit protection and would have an earth flying lead to the earth bar).

Also my understanding was that circuit breakers or fuses were there to protect the cables/installation rather than anyone getting a shock, acceptable disconnection times going from 0.4 to 5 secs depending on the rating of the circuit. RCDs were introduced to protect people from shock.

Hi yes you are sort of correct in that a RCD trips when it detects an imbalance and it is primarily a life safety device.
But where your device doesn't have an earth (as the above solar generators) an imbalance is not possible as the current can only return to it's source via the 230v outlet's neutral.
Meaning that the RCD would never detect an imbalance because there isn't one.
The only protection you will have is via the overcurrent circuit breaker.
If you think about it the only way you can get a significant shock from this setup is to hold the live in one hand and the neutral in the other and switch on!
Hopefully this scenario is unlikely but if it did occur it would end your holiday fairly suddenly..

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[Wannabecamperman]

Hello,

Shortly before Christmas we got the EcoFlow Delta 2. So far we have used it for the following:

In the house
Since we got the EcoFlow we had 3x power outages ( ). Each time it was for several hours. I powered my computer (Dell desktop, 2x monitors, printer, wireless access point and speakers) with it. Worked very well. Another time I powered the wireless access point and the TV to watch a Netflix film, that worked well too.

In the camper
So far we used the Delta twice in the camper. I read an awful lot about the best way to connect a powerbank to the camper, but all of the options seems to difficult for me. So I just connect the Delta 2 to the campers EHU outside through the little window in the back door. All that worked well. In general it will double our free standing time.
There is a lot of information about the danger of using a powerbank (IT-Net) in a camper. But I decided for myself that the szenario to get an electrical shock is minimal. Have I said that, so far we have not used the 230V power sockets in the campe.

Why chose the EcoFlow Delta 2
I am honest, I chose the EcoFlow Delta 2, because it was easy to get them locally. I thought to myself if there are any issues I have a person to talk to. Also I liked that the time to recharge the powerbank is very quick. But so far we have not recharged the Delta in the camper yet.

Regards,
Eberhard

Actually the dangers you mention are generally around lithium-ion power banks, not the much newer and safer Lithium IRON (lifePO4) that have zero safety issues and do 5 x the number of power cycles. This is why I researched long and hard before moving from Jackery to the Bluetti AC200 Max that I use for everything from a microwave to kettle, toaster and even air fryer and hair dryer when camping!

 

[mpill990]

Actually the dangers you mention are generally around lithium-ion power banks, not the much newer and safer Lithium IRON (lifePO4) that have zero safety issues and do 5 x the number of power cycles. This is why I researched long and hard before moving from Jackery to the Bluetti AC200 Max that I use for everything from a microwave to kettle, toaster and even air fryer and hair dryer when camping!

The Bluetti looks like a nice unit!

However I'm confused by your comments about it being safer than lithium-ion power sets- specifically the safety of their 240v outlets.

Where did you get your information from?

In my opinion the 'safety' of the 240 ac outlets will be the same irrespective of the type of source battery...

I'm not trying to be critical just interested

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[thesquirrelpatrol]

So Ecoflow delta arrived as did ninja mini oven. Air fry setting running 1800w well within the 2400w max boost for the delta 2. Game on for proper dinners in the GC!

 

[thesquirrelpatrol]

So anyone using the delta 2; how did you find the recharge time - if plugged into the 20a 12v outlet, will it charge off the solar or how long does it take if running the engine?

 

[thesquirrelpatrol]

So Ecoflow delta arrived as did ninja mini oven. Air fry setting running 1800w well within the 2400w max boost for the delta 2. Game on for proper dinners in the GC!

View attachment 106047

So 20 min air fry used 27% battery and the peak load from the ninja was 1800W on any setting. Doesn’t sit at peak load once up to temp and only uses 29w in between heating elements energised

 

[Corradobrit]

So anyone using the delta 2; how did you find the recharge time - if plugged into the 20a 12v outlet, will it charge off the solar or how long does it take if running the engine?

Haven't had a chance to fully test. Haven't seen the sun for about 2 months.

 

[thesquirrelpatrol]

Haven't had a chance to fully test. Haven't seen the sun for about 2 months.

How do you find it charging off the engine running whilst driving, does it keep it topped up?

 

[Corradobrit]

How do you find it charging off the engine running whilst driving, does it keep it topped up?

The Coast has been tucked up in the garage since I got it weeks ago.

 

[Eber123]

Hello,

Electric power and recharging of batteries is, for me, kind of difficult to get my head around. So please forgive me if my train of thoughts are no (fully) correct.

With the solar panel on the camper it is difficult to judge how long it takes to recharge the leisure battery while driving. My experience is, that the leisure battery will be charged form 60% to 70% within an hour drive (or so). How much electricity is coming from the solar panel I don't know.

I haven't done it yet, but for my holiday I plan to charge the Ecoflow Delta 2 from the 12V socket in the garage.How efficient that will be remains to be seen.
My understanding is, that if I connect the power bank to the 12 V socket the electricity is coming from the leisure battery directly (charging battery to battery). In turn the leisure battery will be charged from the engine while driving and from solar panel.

Because of this I think 2x things are very important:

1.)
Disconnect the power bank from 12 V socket when arriving at the destination

2.)
Never, never leave the power bank connected to the 12V socket when connecting the power bank to the EHU (230V).

I believe it is possible to streamline the technic, but then it gets complicated and expensive again. For me is a more soficistcated solution no option anyway because there is nobody in ROI who is able / willing to install this profesionel, secure and reliable. To travel to Germany to get it done is an option, but simply I can't afford it.

I believe the Ecoflow does improve the free standing time for the camper. Leaving the VW original setup as it is, just connecting the 230V from the Ecoflow to the EHU. Charging the Ecoflow from the 12 V socket might work, but I don't know yet how efficient that will be. Important is to ensure that the power bank is properly connected as outline above.

I am not sure exactly when, but we will spend a weekend in Co. Clare soon. On this trip (about 200 km on way) I will test the charging of the power bank from the VW 12V socket in the garage and I will post the outcome here.

Regards,
Eberhard

 

[mpill990]

Hello,

Electric power and recharging of batteries is, for me, kind of difficult to get my head around. So please forgive me if my train of thoughts are no (fully) correct.

With the solar panel on the camper it is difficult to judge how long it takes to recharge the leisure battery while driving. My experience is, that the leisure battery will be charged form 60% to 70% within an hour drive (or so). How much electricity is coming from the solar panel I don't know.

I haven't done it yet, but for my holiday I plan to charge the Ecoflow Delta 2 from the 12V socket in the garage.How efficient that will be remains to be seen.
My understanding is, that if I connect the power bank to the 12 V socket the electricity is coming from the leisure battery directly (charging battery to battery). In turn the leisure battery will be charged from the engine while driving and from solar panel.

Because of this I think 2x things are very important:

1.)
Disconnect the power bank from 12 V socket when arriving at the destination

2.)
Never, never leave the power bank connected to the 12V socket when connecting the power bank to the EHU (230V).

I believe it is possible to streamline the technic, but then it gets complicated and expensive again. For me is a more soficistcated solution no option anyway because there is nobody in ROI who is able / willing to install this profesionel, secure and reliable. To travel to Germany to get it done is an option, but simply I can't afford it.

I believe the Ecoflow does improve the free standing time for the camper. Leaving the VW original setup as it is, just connecting the 230V from the Ecoflow to the EHU. Charging the Ecoflow from the 12 V socket might work, but I don't know yet how efficient that will be. Important is to ensure that the power bank is properly connected as outline above.

I am not sure exactly when, but we will spend a weekend in Co. Clare soon. On this trip (about 200 km on way) I will test the charging of the power bank from the VW 12V socket in the garage and I will post the outcome here.

Regards,
Eberhard

I'd be slightly careful with this setup..
When the power pack is flat you will need to travel for approx 8 hours to fully charge it.
The charge current will be approx 8 amps - that's quite a lot of current over quite a long distance (from the front to the back of the van).
I'm not sure what the 12v outlet cable size is but this is probably pushing the circuit to it's absolute limit.
If I were you l would plug the power pack into a 12v outlet as close as possible to the leisure battery ie at the front of the van.
This will limit as much as possible any voltage drop overheating (fire) issues.
Better still make-up a cable to directly connect it to the leisure battery and site the power pack in the passenger footwell or directly behind the passenger seat

Cheers
Mike

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[thesquirrelpatrol]

I'd be slightly careful with this setup..
When the power pack is flat you will need to travel for approx 8 hours to fully charge it.
The charge current will be approx 8 amps - that's quite a lot of current over quite a long distance (from the front to the back of the van).
I'm not sure what the 12v outlet cable size is but this is probably pushing the circuit to it's absolute limit.
If I were you l would plug the power pack into a 12v outlet as close as possible to the leisure battery ie at the front of the van.
This will limit as much as possible any voltage drop overheating (fire) issues.
Better still make-up a cable to directly connect it to the leisure battery and site the power pack in the passenger footwell or directly behind the passenger seat

Cheers
Mike

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Outlet at the rear is rated to 20a so wiring will be more than suitably rated to deliver 8A constant current at 12v

 

[mpill990]

Hmm okay it may have a maximum rating at 20a but these type of circuits are designed for short bursts of output. Things like air pumps etc.

You can do what you like of course but if it were me I wouldn't be happy with this circuit pulling 8a for possibly 8 hours.

It may only be 100w but 8a is a significant load over such a cable length. Also these plug/socket combinations are prone to bad connection/high resistance - it's a recipe for disaster

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[thesquirrelpatrol]

Hmm okay it may have a maximum rating at 20a but these type of circuits are designed for short bursts of output. Things like air pumps etc.

You can do what you like of course but if it were me I wouldn't be happy with this circuit pulling 8a for possibly 8 hours.

It may only be 100w but 8a is a significant load over such a cable length. Also these plug/socket combinations are prone to bad connection/high resistance - it's a recipe for disaster

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If the outlet is designed to deliver 20A then the cable will have a suitable specified CSA to cope with the load without any degradation to insulation or any excessive heat generation. Provided the wiring has been designed correctly.