Off grid 230V power

[Mr T]

Pretty sure from the front (leisure battery) to the isolation switch is 16mm2 cable.

 

[Eber123]

Hmm okay it may have a maximum rating at 20a but these type of circuits are designed for short bursts of output. Things like air pumps etc.

You can do what you like of course but if it were me I wouldn't be happy with this circuit pulling 8a for possibly 8 hours.

It may only be 100w but 8a is a significant load over such a cable length. Also these plug/socket combinations are prone to bad connection/high resistance - it's a recipe for disaster

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Hello,

This is what I mean that the electric in a camper is so complicated.

I believe that the majority of people will see the 12 V socket in the garage and will use it whatever they need to charge with. In doing so maybe endanger themselves and others.

I will check the manuals of the GC 600 and the EcoFlow Delta 2 later, contact my VW dealer and EcoFlow and will do some tests connecting the EcoFlow to the 12 V socket and check on the display how much electricity it draws .

Have I said that, I also believe that if the 12 V socket is designed for 20 A, the electric infrastructure should cater for this - even for a longer time. If it doesn't and something happens, in this case, VW should be responsible for it, because if it is not suitable there should be a sign at the socket warning the user.

Let's see what I will find out. I will update these Thread.

Wish me luck.
Eberhard

 

[Grand Cali Pete]

Hello,

This is what I mean that the electric in a camper is so complicated.

I believe that the majority of people will see the 12 V socket in the garage and will use it whatever they need to charge with. In doing so maybe endanger themselves and others.

I will check the manuals of the GC 600 and the EcoFlow Delta 2 later, contact my VW dealer and EcoFlow and will do some tests connecting the EcoFlow to the 12 V socket and check on the display how much electricity it draws .

Have I said that, I also believe that if the 12 V socket is designed for 20 A, the electric infrastructure should cater for this - even for a longer time. If it doesn't and something happens, in this case, VW should be responsible for it, because if it is not suitable there should be a sign at the socket warning the user.

Let's see what I will find out. I will update these Thread.

Wish me luck.
Eberhard

Hi Eberhard,
my delta is limited to 10amps on the dc input. I also agree with you that the cabling to the 12v 20amp socket at the back of the van should be continuously rated. I will have a look at the cable sizing tomorrow and confirm.

 

[mpill990]

If you just have a quick look at the socket outlet, you'll see that it's a generic cheap product, probably only designed for short bursts of heavy use. I wouldn't trust it for continuous high current charging.
I may be over cautious, I don't know, but you can guarantee if it does go wrong, it will be at the worst possible moment.
Also, for 8a charging, without knowing the exact cable length, you probably need 4mm cable. I can't see that the generic socket will have terminals large enough to properly connect 4mm cable..
As I mentioned previously, you can get this setup to work fine if you install bespoke wiring directly from the battery or, indeed, from the 16mm isolator tails.
I'll get my coat and shut up now..


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[thesquirrelpatrol]

If you just have a quick look at the socket outlet, you'll see that it's a generic cheap product, probably only designed for short bursts of heavy use. I wouldn't trust it for continuous high current charging.
I may be over cautious, I don't know, but you can guarantee if it does go wrong, it will be at the worst possible moment.
Also, for 8a charging, without knowing the exact cable length, you probably need 4mm cable. I can't see that the generic socket will have terminals large enough to properly connect 4mm cable..
As I mentioned previously, you can get this setup to work fine if you install bespoke wiring directly from the battery or, indeed, from the 16mm isolator tails.
I'll get my coat and shut up now..


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6mm max on this one

 

[thesquirrelpatrol]

6mm typical single core rated to approx 50A. If we take the distance from the electrical cupboard to the outlet as 2m then volt drop is within acceptable limits

 

[Eber123]

Hello,

The question, at the moment, is if the 12 V connector (cable) is suitable to support the long term charging of a power bank (or similar devices).

It seems that there are different options about this. It is really complicated.

I had a look at the manuals from VW and EcoFlow:

VW
Information is a wee bit unclear to me.
It says that drawing over 20 A of the total system should be avoided. What system?

Ecoflow
That is interesting. The english part of the manual does not mentioned any technical information about charging the power bank from 12V.
A few pages further on, in the german section it says that the power bank can be charged from a 12/24V with 8 A (I add in screenshot) socket.

I had a look at the Dometic web page to find out how much power a cooling box will draw. That can be 8A or even more. Does that mean I can't connect a Dometic cooling box to the 12 V socket?

I am also be sure that people will use the 12V socket to charge their electric bike's battery.

This afternoon I had no time to connect the power bank to the camper (Well, I went for a walk with the dog, had a coffee afterwards and then the pair of us fell aslep).

I will test it tomorrow afternoon.

Confused Grand California
Eberhard

 

[mpill990]

I'm happy to be wrong - if the socket is indeed a good quality Durite item and it's connected with 4mm cable (or 6mm), then you're going to be fine.
When I looked at ours, it looked fairly cheap and nasty and not suitable for anything 'heavy duty'. I'd looked at one of those Dometic cool boxes and didn't think the socket was up to it, so I didn't get one in the end.
As I say, I'm happy to be wrong. It would be good if someone could pull their socket and confirm the cable sizing.


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[Eber123]

Good morning,

I think it is brilliant if we can discuss such a topic here in our forum.

I don't know the technical specification - as I said before - the entire GC electric seems to me very difficult. I am wondering if other manufacturer have better solutions.

I approach the issue with logic, let me rephrase this, my logic. In this example I expect that the 12V connector is capable to run a device for a longer period of time. If it can't there should (must be) a sticker beside it to warn the user.

I had a look in the VW GC manual. Normally I skip over the "warning sections", but this time I read them. In one section they said "... don't stick any knitting needles into the 230V sockets ..." . If VW feels that they have to mention that, the must mention not to use the 12V socket for a long period of time.

Well, I will contact VW Nutzfahrzeuge in Hannover today. Maybe a miracle happens and I get some meaningful replies. I let you know.

Regards,
Eberhard

PS
I just send an email to VW about this. As soon as I get some information back I let you know.

 

[The Yorkshireman]

Take a look at this

 

[The Yorkshireman]

Take a look at this

 

[Eber123]

Hello @theyorkshireman,

Thank you for the picture.

I think the diameter of the cable is important. Maybe somebody can suggest, based on the pictures, the diameter.

Regards,
Eberhard

 

[markicp]

I charged my ecoflow delta max for the last 5 weeks in Spain using the 12v socket at rear but only using 4amp setting and maybe a couple of hours using the 6amp setting as at 6amp the socket was getting warm but not too hot, at 4amp it was fine 8amp the plug got very hot, however it would at best on a sunny day only top it up by 10%, never really monitored much when driving, the 20 amp outlet is no way sufficient as the cable is too small and connection using cigar type plugs is not suitable for long draw at 20amp, I was looking at running a suitable cable to the main 12v feed into the electrical cupboard and using a 20amp plug connector that should allow charging at 8amp

 

[The Yorkshireman]

Hello @theyorkshireman,

Thank you for the picture.

I think the diameter of the cable is important. Maybe somebody can suggest, based on the pictures, the diameter.

Regards,
Eberhard

Hi Eberhard I used my wire stripper as a rough guide and it looked like 2.5 but it’s not an exact measurement.

 

[mpill990]

Take a look at this

View attachment 106243

View attachment 106244

Oops, that looks like 1.5mm to me.

You'd be wise to charge at the reduced 4a setting if you're going to use this socket.

As you say, it's good to discuss these issues in the forum

I trained as a power engineer in the RAF, so I'm always a bit risk adverse when I'm looking at non-military systems.




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[mpill990]

Hi Eberhard I used my wire stripper as a rough guide and it looked like 2.5 but it’s not an exact measurement.

Yes, it might be 2.5mm - hard to tell from the pic - but still too small for continuous 8a use.

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[mpill990]

Good morning,

I think it is brilliant if we can discuss such a topic here in our forum.

I don't know the technical specification - as I said before - the entire GC electric seems to me very difficult. I am wondering if other manufacturer have better solutions.

I approach the issue with logic, let me rephrase this, my logic. In this example I expect that the 12V connector is capable to run a device for a longer period of time. If it can't there should (must be) a sticker beside it to warn the user.

I had a look in the VW GC manual. Normally I skip over the "warning sections", but this time I read them. In one section they said "... don't stick any knitting needles into the 230V sockets ..." . If VW feels that they have to mention that, the must mention not to use the 12V socket for a long period of time.

Well, I will contact VW Nutzfahrzeuge in Hannover today. Maybe a miracle happens and I get some meaningful replies. I let you know.

Regards,
Eberhard

PS
I just send an email to VW about this. As soon as I get some information back I let you know.

In terms of the standard GC infrastructure (power, water, and gas) I actually think the quality of both the components and the installation is generally very good for the amount of money you pay.
When you compare it with a bespoke 'off-grid' camper conversion, you are not comparing 'apples with apples', so it's a bit of a pointless exercise, especially when you factor in the cost difference.
I believe solar power packs are a good solution for a couple of days off-grid but not really much use in the UK where we don't get year-round sunlight. They are perfect for a winter lay-up in southern Spain or Portugal, for instance.
I haven't given this loads of thought, but probably if I wanted off-grid power, I'd go for a modern lightweight, super quiet petrol generator. I had a 4 stroke Honda a few years ago, and it seemed to run forever on the merest wiff of fuel. You, of course, couldn't run it if you had neighbours, but if you're off-grid, I'm assuming that you don't.
Just my 2p worth

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[mpill990]

Here you go, this would be perfect

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[Eber123]

Hello,

I agree, the GC 600 is not an Overlander, with all the bells and whislels.

Many of "standard" campervan come with AGM batteries, which are not really good to stay for 24 or 48 hours (without solar). So to use a power bank might be not a bad idea.

The question at the moment is, is the 12V socket in the back can deal with the 8A or not. The weather was too bad this afternoon, but I hope I can give it a try on Thursday to see how the Ecoflow can be configured to have a save charge from the 12V socket.

In the VW manual it doesn't give any warning not to use the socket for a long period of time. So I contacted VW Nutzfahrzeuge. I hope they can give me some information.

Regards,
Eberhard

 

[thesquirrelpatrol]

Hello @theyorkshireman,

Thank you for the picture.

I think the diameter of the cable is important. Maybe somebody can suggest, based on the pictures, the diameter.

Regards,
Eberhard

Looks like 2.5mm to me, the current carrying capacity will vary depending on the method of installation and derating factors and to be fair I’m not overly familiar with auto wiring regulations or calcs however 2.5mm in the applications I am used to is capable of delivering 27-35A with no derating (grouping factor/ambient temp etc) depends on the type of insulation. Any electrical circuit will run at a higher than ambient temp as a normal function, heat is a by product of the electrical energy, the current carrying capacity is dictated by how much current the cable can cope with before it reaches a temperature that would cause degradation of the insulating material. For example PVC insulation is typically 70 degrees, LSF is 90 degrees. This means that the copper can operate up to these temps without the insulation failing and that a small CSA LSF cable can sometimes deliver almost as much as a PVC insulated cable with a larger CSA. Lots of calcs required to prove this tho.

 

[markicp]

Hello,

I agree, the GC 600 is not an Overlander, with all the bells and whislels.

Many of "standard" campervan come with AGM batteries, which are not really good to stay for 24 or 48 hours (without solar). So to use a power bank might be not a bad idea.

The question at the moment is, is the 12V socket in the back can deal with the 8A or not. The weather was too bad this afternoon, but I hope I can give it a try on Thursday to see how the Ecoflow can be configured to have a save charge from the 12V socket.

In the VW manual it doesn't give any warning not to use the socket for a long period of time. So I contacted VW Nutzfahrzeuge. I hope they can give me some information.

Regards,
Eberhard

No it won’t charge at 8amp unless you want to cause a fire it overheats and the socket gets very hot 6amp is max but that still gets hot 4amp is fine

 

[Wannabecamperman]

The Bluetti looks like a nice unit!

However I'm confused by your comments about it being safer than lithium-ion power sets- specifically the safety of their 240v outlets.

Where did you get your information from?

In my opinion the 'safety' of the 240 ac outlets will be the same irrespective of the type of source battery...

I'm not trying to be critical just interested

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My comment about power bank safety and the LiFe Po4 Lithium-IRON (as opposed to Lithium-ION) batteries was in regard to the fires reported with the -ion batteries, rather than specifically about the 240V outlets, of which there are 4 by the way - see image of mine, charging from the solar panel hanging on our washing line!

 

[mpill990]

My comment about power bank safety and the LiFe Po4 Lithium-IRON (as opposed to Lithium-ION) batteries was in regard to the fires reported with the -ion batteries, rather than specifically about the 240V outlets, of which there are 4 by the way - see image of mine, charging from the solar panel hanging on our washing line!

View attachment 106586

View attachment 106587

Ah, yes, makes sense. Those Lithium Iron batteries are a definite improvement over the Lithium Ion one's

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[Eber123]

Hello,

I tried to get some feedback about the topics we discussed in this thread. Yesterday I got a reply from VW Nutzfahrzeuge Hannover. I asked the following questions:

1. Power bank
2. Camper Unit / AGM battery
3. Upgrade from AGM battery to lithium battery

I will copy the answer from VW in German into this post and try to translate it. Especially with the camper unit I am not exactly sure what they said, even in German.

1. Power bank
My question:

Meine Frage nun: erlaubt die Elektrische Installation vom Grand California, dass der 12V Stecker auf diese Art und Weise für längere Zeit benutzt wird? Oder werden Kabel / Stecker zu heiß?

Translation:

My question now: does the electrical installation of the Grand California allow the 12V plug to be used in this way for a long period of time? Or become cable / plug to hot?

VW replied:

Hier handeln Sie, als Kunde, in Eigenverantwortung.

Translation:

Here, as a customer, you act on your own responsibility.

That is very "diplomatic", giving nothing away. So this item is still open. I will contact my VW dealer about this.

2. Camper Unit / AGM battery
My question:

1. Zeigt die Camper Unit von 0 - 100% 92Ah an? In anderen Worten zeigt die Anzeige 50% an, sind schon 46Ah verbraucht und man muss nachladen.
2. Zeigt die Camper Unit von 0 - 100% nur die zu benutzenden 46Ah an? In anderen Worten, zeigt die Anzeige 50% an, sind erst 23Ah verbraucht und man hat noch 23Ah zur Verfügung.

Translation:

Does the Camper Unit show 92Ah from 0 - 100%? In other words, the display shows 50%, 46Ah have already been used and you have to recharge.
Does the Camper Unit only show the 46Ah to be used from 0 - 100%? In other words, if the display shows 50%, only 23Ah have been used and you still have 23Ah available.

VW replied:

Die Balkenanzeige ist eine „Kunden-Ladezustands-Anzeige“.
Diese ist nicht fest an 50% der Batteriekapazität gekoppelt.
Die 10 Balkengrenze wird dynamisch auf den Punkt verschoben, ab dem die Batterie keinen
Strom mehr aufnimmt (kalte oder alte Batterien nehmen nicht mehr so viel Strom auf wie neue
Batterien).
Ein Balken ist die Vorwarnstufe der Abschaltung, diese kommt bei 0 Balken.
0 Balken und somit die Abschaltung geschieht, wenn keine Ladung mehr entnommen werden
darf (ein geringer Rest ist noch vorbehalten).
Würde weiter entladen werden, DANN kann die Batterie geschädigt werden – also erst bei 0
Balken.
Diese Grenze ist nicht bei 50% des „echten“ Ladezustandes, sondern hängt von den
gemessenen Batteriewerten ab (aktive Überwachung durch Sensor).
Sie als Kunde können den vollen Bereich ohne Einschränkung nutzen.
Die angezeigte Restlaufzeit ist bis zu dem 0-Balken Punkt berechnet.
Die 50% sind ein Richtwert der nutzbaren Energie – das gilt besonders fuer NICHT überwachte 2.Batterien.

Translation:

The bar display is a "customer charge status display".
This is not tied to 50% of the battery capacity.
The 10 bar limit is dynamically shifted to the point where the battery is empty
consumes more current (cold or old batteries do not draw as much current as new ones
batteries).
One bar is the warning level of the shutdown, this comes at 0 bars.
0 bars and thus the switch-off occurs when no more charges can be removed
allowed (a small remainder is still reserved).
If you continue to discharge, THEN the battery can be damaged - i.e. only at 0
Bar.
This limit is not at 50% of the "real" state of charge, but depends on the
measured battery values (active monitoring by sensor).
As a customer, you can use the full area without restriction.
The remaining time displayed is calculated up to the 0-bar point.
The 50% is a guide value of the usable energy - this applies in particular to non-monitored 2nd batteries.

My interpretation:
I was convinced that if the camper unit is down to 50% the 46Ah electricity is gone and no more should be used without damaging the AGM battery.
The way I understand VW's reply, it is no problem to use the electricity down to 10%. Which would be brilliant.

3.) Upgrade from AGM battery to lithium battery
On the 22/09/22 I got a letter from VW Nutzfahrzeuge responding on my query about upgrade of the AGM leisure battery to Lithium.

In September they said:

When asked whether Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles plans to offer a battery update or battery replacement, I can answer that something is planned.

So I thought I will ask again and got this reply:

We are not making any statements about future product events.

We might need to wait a wee bit longer for a VW upgrade of the battery ...

For me I take the following out of the information from VW. I will charge the EcoFlow Delta 2 from the 12V socket in the back, but as requested from fellow members, only with 4A.
The electricity can be used under the 50% in the camper unit, down to 10%.

Regards,
Eberhard

PS
I hope this makes all sense. If not please let me know.

 

[Corradobrit]

I did about 350km over the weekend with the EF Delta 2 sitting between the front seats and being charged using the lower dash 12V socket. Wire remained cool to the touch and there was a slight warmth the socket. Nothing to be overly concerned about even when set at 8A. Maximum continuous charging was around 2 hrs at a time with ~105W going in.