Pedders suspension

[GrannyJen]

I must admit that I find this thread quite uplifting ....

Sorry ..... no need to throw my coat at me

 

[s2bear]

I must admit that I find this thread quite uplifting ....

Sorry ..... no need to throw my coat at me

At least we can say whatever springs to mind....


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[WillSS]

Brand New Austrian Spec LHD Cali Beach Edition 4motion DSG WITH HD anti roll bars (1k miles on clock): Front Centre Wheel to centre of Arch = 450mm / Rear Centre Wheel to centre of Arch = 425mm. So, it has the illusion that the front rides higher than the rear. Spirit Level on interior floor says the front is LOWER than the rear. Spirit Level on garage floor says floor slopes ‘slightly’ down towards the front of the vehicle but not as much as the vehicle’s floor. Letting go of the sliding door, it rapidly closes of its own accord - is it designed to do so regardless of the vehicle stance? i.e. do the door runners slope down towards the front? The Front of the vehicle is to the RIGHT in the photos. Spring Markings attached too (grey/grey/green). Not sure if I’ve confused the situation even more or not, but hopefully the spring markings are good for the record. Despite the measurements and apparition of being lower at the rear, my Cali’s angle seems less than the OP’s Cali. Stu... p.s. 1/2 tank of fuel.

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Given you have the 4motion on a Beach you will no doubt have higher rated rear springs than the UK spec 2wd Beach (mine standard was 3xpink). You've posted a pic of the front strut, it's the rear we're mainly discussing here. Be interested to see what you have back there, most likely 2xwhite?
(Re the front, I notice you've also got stronger springs compared to my 2wd Beach ie... 2xgrey,1xgreen as against my 1xgrey,1xgreen)

Do you have a 2 or 3 seat bench? Makes you wonder how spring rates vary between the 2 seat bench vs 3 seat bench plus the optional extra 2 seats.

I don't think you'll be worrying about sag given what you're saying and assuming you do have the 2xwhite then in theory it should look something like the 4M Beach pictured in my earlier post #47.

For what it's worth, the HD anti-roll bars don't make a jot of difference to the ride height (assuming it's level across the axle). You'd get the same measurement if you removed them completely.

Re the internal level I think it's more typical the sliding door stays where it is once opened but your spirit level results will obviously be improved if you park it somewhere dead flat, your local Crown bowling green springs to mind. Please be respectful though, wait for a gap in play and no handbrake turns .

 

[Skewif]

I'm still in two minds as to go Pedders or T32/HD setup plus spacer (to get just the right hight I want for my purpose) after all its good feedback on here. At worst it will cost me £300 ish even if it takes 2 attempts though I feel that's a small price to pay for the improvements I expect. Happy to experiment so van booked at my local Transporter converters to try out the Pedders first. They lower / change loads of T5/T6 suspension but just throw away the T32 springs into the scrap bin even though many are delivery mileage only.
If anyone wants some nearly new T32 springs please let me know and I'll see what I can arrange. I'm going to bag a pair in case the Pedders doesn't work out and also to swap in when it comes to selling as not many want the back as high as I do.

Seb.

 

[mccp]

local Crown bowling green springs to mind.

I know I'm being pedantic, but crown bowling greens aren't level - they are raised (crowned) in the centre.

 

[WillSS]

I know I'm being pedantic, but crown bowling greens aren't level - they are raised (crowned) in the centre.

Oops, please excuse my ignorance! Will have to be the local tennis courts then!

 

[s2bear]

I know I'm being pedantic, but crown bowling greens aren't level - they are raised (crowned) in the centre.

You HAVE to be kidding me!?!? Wish I’d known that, It’s like ‘A Clockwork Orange’ outside my Cali right now, my goodness they are SO cross - there’s cucumber sandwiches EVERYWHERE. Going to have to find a flatter green now, just as soon as I can get off this one....


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[s2bear]

Given you have the 4motion on a Beach you will no doubt have higher rated rear springs than the UK spec 2wd Beach (mine standard was 3xpink). You've posted a pic of the front strut, it's the rear we're mainly discussing here. Be interested to see what you have back there, most likely 2xwhite?
(Re the front, I notice you've also got stronger springs compared to my 2wd Beach ie... 2xgrey,1xgreen as against my 1xgrey,1xgreen)

Do you have a 2 or 3 seat bench? Makes you wonder how spring rates vary between the 2 seat bench vs 3 seat bench plus the optional extra 2 seats.

I don't think you'll be worrying about sag given what you're saying and assuming you do have the 2xwhite then in theory it should look something like the 4M Beach pictured in my earlier post #47.

For what it's worth, the HD anti-roll bars don't make a jot of difference to the ride height (assuming it's level across the axle). You'd get the same measurement if you removed them completely.

Re the internal level I think it's more typical the sliding door stays where it is once opened but your spirit level results will obviously be improved if you park it somewhere dead flat, your local Crown bowling green springs to mind. Please be respectful though, wait for a gap in play and no handbrake turns .

OK, a bit odd but here are the rear springs, mine is a 3 seat beach specced with an extra seat from the factory...

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[WillSS]

OK, a bit odd but here are the rear springs, mine is a 3 seat beach specced with an extra seat from the factory...

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Are those marks pink or white? (then I'll update the list)

 

[s2bear]

Are those marks pink or white? (then I'll update the list)

It’s hard to tell as I can’t actually get my head in there to see with my own eyes or natural light but moving the ‘live’ photo through the frames that were taken, they look like pink marks to me. What does 4 pink marks mean? These photos are the same as before but moved along a few frames when the light is different. Hope that helps. Stu

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[Kmann]

… What does 4 pink marks mean? …

OH DEAR! You don't wanna know

 

[WillSS]

Yep 4xpink.
As to what that means... not a lot other than you now know where your springs sit on the load rating scale.
Yours have a weight rating 0YC.
Thats one weight class higher than originally installed on my Beach (0YB - 3xpink) but one below the T5 4M Beach pictured in post#47, (0YD - 2xwhite).

Highlights the variable nature of this spring selection. I wonder what extra options you need to select to get the 2xwhite? 2 additional seats? Tow bar?

 

[s2bear]

Yep 4xpink.
As to what that means... not a lot other than you now know where your springs sit on the load rating scale.
Yours have a weight rating 0YC.
Thats one weight class higher than originally installed on my Beach (0YB - 3xpink) but one below the T5 4M Beach pictured in post#47, (0YD - 2xwhite).

Highlights the variable nature of this spring selection. I wonder what extra options you need to select to get the 2xwhite? 2 additional seats? Tow bar?

Perhaps they just stick on whatever they have to hand ‘within a certain load range’. I’d like to think that wasn’t the case


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[s2bear]

OH DEAR! You don't wanna know

I was afraid you'd say that...


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[WelshGas]

If you look at many modern cars most seem to have a differential in the middle wheel to wheel arch distance, and the front is greater than the back.
Audi, Jaguar, Honda, Kia, Etc: in fact the only one that didn’t seem to have this was the Mini.

 

[Skewif]

IMO… This is what happens if you only change the shocks….. Wow! Personally I have always felt that the lack of adequate damping on the rear is the greatest contributor to the overall spongy, bouncy and poor feel of the Cali, and I was right. As I have the HD Pedders dampers and springs all ready to be fitted on Tuesday I thought I'd fit the dampers myself to see what the difference is just fitting the uprated dampers. Well, the difference is simply amazing.
I have no idea how the Pedders shocks compare to the Sachs HD ones but compared to standard they have way better damping. With the standard shock fully extended and putting all my weight on it, it fully compressed in about 2 seconds and the Pedders took about 3.5/4 seconds.
Just come back from a very quick 30mile test around Hampshire country roads and I'm blown away by how much better the whole van feels. No bounce whatsoever, just stays level on fast uneven roads that before would induce such a bounce rear passengers nearly left the seat, instantly noticeable reduced roll when turning into corners, big reduction in quite uncomfortable side to side sway that can develop going over deeply uneven ground and best of all is the instant feeling that you are no longer driving an overloaded van. Blimey, all this for little more than £100! In a way I feel gutted I didn't know this years ago… ho humm.

It's early days as I have yet to take it off road and on the motorway (tomorrow) but I can only find one downside to these shocks so far..… you can go really bloody fast on bumpy roads now!

The ride has been transformed and it feels way more as it should. I'm unlikely to ever test the Sachs HD shocks on std springs but from my experience today if you have a bit of a bounce fit better shocks NOW! I still need more height for the kind of places I go and now just hope that Tuesdays fitting of springs won't make my new found really rather good ride too firm. Off to Hayling Island now to try it out on the beach. Yipppeeee!

FYI. SE180 4M,Towbar, 30-40kg aft of the rear seat, seat forward, 68k miles.

 

[WillSS]

Excellent stuff Steve, I would guess the Pedder's shocks are stronger than the Sach's H/D given they are aiming their products at the super heavyweights such as ambulances, etc.
Albeit your shocks have 68k under their belt this does highlight how pathetically underdamped the basic T28 monroe shocks are for such a heavy beast. Any H/D shock, whether Pedders, Sachs H/D or Bilstein B6 can only be a significant improvement to ride quality and safety.

 

[Skewif]

I have to agree with you Will, the underdamping is the weak link. When I have gone on a test drive in a showroom Cali at the dealers before purchasing it all feels great. But its not real life. No water, no gas bottle, no pots and pans plus the multitude of things I need/want to carry to allow spontaneous getaways at a moments notice.

Having now gone for a long cruse and also some lumpy ground at speed this afternoon after fitting the dampers I now know I personally need some more progressive springs because of the rough stuff I love to do. The setup is the best I have experienced on a semi loaded Cali, it's a massive improvement and the nearest to perfect for relaxed driving on roads so far. The springs and weight is so well controlled with the increased damping, it feels like less than half the weight and almost floats when swiftly moving along undulating roads without any bounce. This small mod is a win win but now the crashy old front is seeming like it needs a fix too.
Cant wait to see what the new set of springs will do on Tuesday!

 

[Skewif]

Pedders springs and dampers review. Now I've had opportunity to test them on all sorts of terrain here is my personal opinion of what difference they make. Having fitted the new dampers a few day before I took my van to the ever helpful guys at VW Transporters Ltd in Henfield to swap in the big red springs. It was a little more work than we all expected because these springs are really big and tough compared to the originals. The old ones popped out easily after just disconnecting the lower shock bolts but getting the new monsters in involved disconnecting the drive shafts too. I had expected the lower rubber spring cups to need replacing but was surprised to see the thick upper ones were also totally destroyed.

I was hoping for a 45mm ish raise to the rear as that seemed the norm from what other have reported and it would have given me the height / stance I wanted from just a rear spring change. Once back on the ground I was surprised to see it had gone up by a whopping 57mm! But then my van was about 15mm lower on the rear than standard probably due to the milage of the springs and compression/wear of the rubber cups/mounts etc.

Having fitted the HD shocks a few days before I knew the transforming effect they alone had on handling and general drivability. The difference the springs made was initially less noticeable when driving. They are designed for fully loaded transporters so I was pleasantly surprised when driving off that they didn't feel too stiff. The main difference I notice from standard is the reduced roll and the increased progressiveness of the springs. Cornering when driving swiftly has been improved massively. Still a little initial roll but then just settles into a way more level and planted cornering experience. The van feels more car like now and inspires confidence in situations that before gave me white knuckles. The steering feels more sensitive too. I might even get a couple more mpg going along the A27 now I don't have to slow down anywhere near as much for all the roundabouts. Tested down a very bumpy track that had lots of big dips and crests and impressed in how well it handled it all. The increase in ground clearance and the more progressive springs meant bottoming out was near impossible. On motorways if still feels incredibly comfortable. I have yet to fully load up but I'm confident it will handle whatever I throw in the back.

On the down side, road texture and small irregularities are more noticeable from the rear now but still less than what I get from the front. This comes more from the shocks and shock bushes though. Big potholes and broken up road surface are still very crashy but with an added firmness to it. When traveling at speed on uneven roads it's obviously firmer but this is a benefit as way more stable and predictable. For what I want I'm very please so far and loving my Cali feeling like it's a whole lot lighter when having a spirited drive. At the end of the day it's a HD setup so there is some tradeoff in getting better handling but not too much.

The 57mm lift is more than what I wanted. On level ground the van isn't and I'm not keen on the out of kilter look. I'm investing in new Sachs HD struts and replacing all of the front bushes etc to minimise the slack. So while it's apart I'll also raise the front 20-30mm to even things out. As my primary reason for fitting these rear springs was increased ground clearance for off road driving so I'm more than happy to go this route. It will still be a bit lower than the full Seikel setup and should be perfect for the pottering along mountain tracks that I so love.

Would I recommend Pedders? From what I know I'd say no for most people. It's real heavy duty stuff and unless you want / need it for ground clearance, constant heavy loads, off road or towing it may not be the best option. If your van does not have enough weight on the rear it can be harsh. Feel mine's OK because has 4motion, tow bar, always a full tank of water and a minimum of 40kg of junk in the boot.

IMO if you feel your rear is a bit wallowy or bouncy fit new HD dampers. If it rolls too much fit the VW uprated ARB. For firmer and a 20mm lift to remove the saggy look, fit the T32 springs. Want an improvement to drivability and a more car like experience, fit all three.

A few pics.... oh and have some Latitude Cross tyres on the way just to finish it off... or will it end there?

 

[franckyuccas]

The rear end is now as it should be...now you may raise the front ~20mm to level it up.
Good review

 

[Gavrobb]

Yes, great summary Skewif and thanks for all the time taken on this. Agree with your statement on the "out of kilter" look but it doesnt look as severe as some of the earlier posts in this thread. It still looks far better than the 'other way' - the van looks lighter for the lack of sag at the rear..

Finally found some T32 (4X grey) springs from an ebay'r willing to ship (conversion company that have proven really helpful and see them often - happy to pass on details to anybody in need) . Hopeful I'll be looking similar in the next week or so. Will be sure to report findings.

As an observation on the variety of '4M sag syndrome' on here I wonder if the rear seat position is a factor - must be a substantial weight (200kg?) in this unit? Certainly I can see the sag reduce noticeably if I stick the seat far forward (position limiters removed) and wonder if the folks seeing worst sag are, like me, running the seat pretty far back?

Been a really useful thread - thanks.

 

[Skewif]

Thank you Gavrobb. Moving the seat certainly had a large effect when on bumpy roads, moving it all the way back would increase the depth of any bounce and caused more bottoming out. When off road I'd always have the seat and any heavy luggage as far forward as possible. Thankfully that's now a problem of the past. With the Pedders having the seat right back actually makes the ride better.

I'd be very interested to hear what difference your new springs make. Any chance you could measure hub centre to wheel arch before and after? Do you have a soft/bouncy ride when loaded and if so are you changing the dampers to?

 

[Skewif]

IMO. Something to bare in mind if anyone is planning to go any more than 20mm up on the rear. Because the rear wheel arch is around 35/40mm lower than the front in relation to the sill there is a clash between what looks right on the outside and having a level camper van. It seems almost everyone who plays with their T5/6 suspension is after the same gap above the tyre at both ends as this looks correct. Problem for a camper is then it's not level by a noticeable amount. If parked on level ground the side door won't stay half open, upstairs bed slopes to head end etc. That's why so many Cali's look saggy but are in fact just level.

Now that my rear is too high in relation to the front I've been experimenting with how much to raise the front to balance things out. After much measuring, taking pictures and jacking up and down of the front I've come to the conclusion that there needs to be at least 10mm greater gap above the front tyre to keep the van just level enough, 20mm would be better still if you want to maintain near std levelness. If you don't often park up on level ground then not really a problem.

The saggy look is a bodywork optical illusion caused by the Cali being based on a van designed to carry a way larger range of weight. If the wheel arches where the same height can you imagine how wrong a new and completely empty transporter would look on the dealers forecourt. If you can't imagine then this pic is a very quick photoshop to illustrate my belief. (and its not even empty!)

 

[Gavrobb]

The saggy look is a bodywork optical illusion caused by the Cali being based on a van designed to carry a way larger range of weight.

Interesting point and you had me second guessing the rear springs upgrade for a bit there BUT... you do have to admit that the current set up on the 4M (mine anyway) is that they are sagging, admittedly its pretty level for it - as hard as this is to tell given the total lack of any real FLAT, no sloping areas in the outdoor real world. I stand by them sagging at the rear too much as the camber on the wheels is more than I believe it really should be - I'm concerned about tire scrub its so bad. Your optical illusion suggestion is really interesting tho and I do worry that you are correct and we are chasing a non issue.

Anyway - to answer your earlier Q Skewif, I'll get a full report on here this week - in to get the springs done tomorrow. As for driving performance - I'm not really one for looking to get sports car performance out a van so its hard to say. My main concern on a vehicle is performance in rough conditions (and currently - how warm can the seat go, how good is the stereo and how timing the pre-heater before I brave the cold run out to the van this winter here in the North!!) It drives fine really having had pickups before this one. Not changing the dampers yet but will consider. I have both F&R T32 springs (cotrim.co.uk) here and would consider picking up the front if needed.

Great info as always on here. Thanks

 

[Stuart]

@Skewif it's an interesting point. T1s and T2s get around this by hiding the top of the wheel arch so you can't see the gap!