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REMAP

DavidS

DavidS

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Thanks for that Terry, but specifically how many post 07/13 180 BMTs have you done?
 
James

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TH Performance said:
Hi David.

We have tuned the BMT engines on a number of occasions.

The 180bi turbo we tune mainly to eliminate the dreaded turbo lag as per the CFCA version. We increase the bhp but only to around 210bhp as that is a nice reliable gain for this engine. I know people who claim to tune these to 230-250bhp but that pushes these units too much and greatly increases the chance of problems later.

The 115bhp engine we tune to around 160bhp which is a nice reliable level too. We have dyno tested these at over 176bhp and they have proven to be good for this however we believe reliability is more important than power especially with the California/Beach range as these were not designed to be sports cars, they are motorhomes/campers (delete as applicable) and as such they were never designed to break records on race tracks.

These are people’s pride and joys and we respect that hence why we tune them to this level and not more, we decide what is enough as it’s our name that we are keen to promote and that is why the Pendle brand remains the UK’s number 1 tuning company, no other company (despite what they may claim) tunes as many of these as us, fact.

We have a number of commercial partners who sell these vans (california’s etc and vans converted into campervans) and they rely on us to provide them with a service that is reliable and cost effective.

Kindest regards

Terry

That's interesting but I think the 5 speed box on the BMT Beach would let it down, 165bhp would be good but I'd want a six speed with that, unless the gearing can be altered.

Would also like to know the impact on MPG.

James
 
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The gear boxes are ok for this, we wouldn't tune them to the 160 mark if we thought it would cause the gearbox any problems.

You have to remember, you're very unlikely to drive these at the level where it's going to push it that much (to cause it harm). As I said, we have tested these and we have hundreds of customers with the 85/102 and 115 models that have not had a single problem with gearboxes.

MPG wise, we have seen increases in MPG of between 8-15% however the caveat is that all depends on your driving style etc. If you start driving it faster then you'll not see any gains, drive it normally and you will see increases.

It's pretty simple math, if the engine is using less effort to get from a 2 b then it will save fuel, and it really is as simple as that.

One thing we don;t do is offer "eco" tunes as there is no such thing, you get the same result. We don't believe in duping people, we tell it as it is, we offer choices and honest advice nothing else. :cool:
 
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DavidS said:
Thanks for that Terry, but specifically how many post 07/13 180 BMTs have you done?
Pendle Performance have done more than our fair share of these, i'm not sure why you would need exact numbers, and without sounding rude, quite a few of our customers request privacy and no photo's on display (like on my Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/thperformance ) so i'm a but reluctant to give specifics. Dpn't take this wrong, but most companies would protect data like that for obvious reasons. :thumb
 
James

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TH Performance said:
The gear boxes are ok for this, we wouldn't tune them to the 160 mark if we thought it would cause the gearbox any problems.

You have to remember, you're very unlikely to drive these at the level where it's going to push it that much (to cause it harm). As I said, we have tested these and we have hundreds of customers with the 85/102 and 115 models that have not had a single problem with gearboxes.

MPG wise, we have seen increases in MPG of between 8-15% however the caveat is that all depends on your driving style etc. If you start driving it faster then you'll not see any gains, drive it normally and you will see increases.

It's pretty simple math, if the engine is using less effort to get from a 2 b then it will save fuel, and it really is as simple as that.

One thing we don;t do is offer "eco" tunes as there is no such thing, you get the same result. We don't believe in duping people, we tell it as it is, we offer choices and honest advice nothing else. :cool:

That's very interesting - i meant the way the BMT is geared but thank you for the info :)


So... what's the cost ?


James
 
DavidS

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Again, if I were to let you have control of my £49k 07/13 vehicle, will you please confirm that you are able to do a satisfactory remap of this, and provide evidence in terms of torque and bhp improvement? My understanding is that it's not just BMT engines, but when they were manufactured. Are you able to remap the very latest that pops off the production line, and prove that you have done so? Please advise.
Best wishes,
David,
 
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Hi David.

I've done a October 2013 plate in the past week, which cost in excess of £55k and I know a number of agents that have done the same.

I'm not sure what you want me to say with regards to evidence, for commercial reasons we are not prepared to divulge figures etc but can assure you we have tuned plenty of these.

If you're worried that your van may be damaged then I carry £2m indemnity insurance against defective workmanship so your 40 odd K van is more than covered.

You're more than welcome to inspect my insurance cover or just visit http://www.checkatrade.com/THPerformanceLtd/ where you'll find that evidence of my insurance etc. ;)

If you're not convinced there's little more i can do or say, except bring your T5 along and watch it happen in front of your eyes. If you're not happy you don't pay, it's as simple as that.

:thanks
 
2into1

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The benefit vs risk of aftermarket tuning is always a popular topic on forums. I'm afraid this thread has done nothing to change my (personal) opinion that it is still a very amateur sport and best avoided on a £50k vehicle bought for leisure use.
 
James

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T4WFA said:
The benefit vs risk of aftermarket tuning is always a popular topic on forums. I'm afraid this thread has done nothing to change my (personal) opinion that it is still a very amateur sport and best avoided on a £50k vehicle bought for leisure use.
Very interesting thread and some good thoughts.

My own reasoning says, I understand that engines have room for more BHP but there must be a reason why VW designed my Beach BMT to 115bhp - I'd only consider a remap if I understood this reasoning.

After all VW have spent millions designing vehicles, let's be fair, they've been doing this a fair while and this know a bit of what they are doing. I know the engines have tolerance but I wouldn't be keen to take the risk.

The other question I ask is, even at 115bhp i don't need extra power, I know people say it eliminates turbo lag on the 180, it gives me low down torque etc etc etc.... I don't doubt but I have never driven around wanting more power, if I do, I feel maybe I've bought the wrong vehicle. I mean each to their own, I've put things on my Beach which aren't needed but this quest for more power is not something I'd been keen to risk.

I do think this is interesting though and it's great to have a company that does this sort of thing give their input on the forum.

James
 
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T4WFA said:
The benefit vs risk of aftermarket tuning is always a popular topic on forums. I'm afraid this thread has done nothing to change my (personal) opinion that it is still a very amateur sport and best avoided on a £50k vehicle bought for leisure use.
Would you still consider it 'amateurish' if you knew that we have tuned vehicles for customers of VW at dealerships for and behalf of VW?
 
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James said:
My own reasoning says, I understand that engines have room for more BHP but there must be a reason why VW designed my Beach BMT to 115bhp - I'd only consider a remap if I understood this reasoning.

After all VW have spent millions designing vehicles, let's be fair, they've been doing this a fair while and this know a bit of what they are doing. I know the engines have tolerance but I wouldn't be keen to take the risk.

The other question I ask is, even at 115bhp i don't need extra power, I know people say it eliminates turbo lag on the 180, it gives me low down torque etc etc etc.... I don't doubt but I have never driven around wanting more power, if I do, I feel maybe I've bought the wrong vehicle. I mean each to their own, I've put things on my Beach which aren't needed but this quest for more power is not something I'd been keen to risk.

I do think this is interesting though and it's great to have a company that does this sort of thing give their input on the forum.

James
Why do they leave the factory at X bhp?

It's a lot to do with politics and profit margins than benefits to customers to be honest.

Company A need 1000 vans. They approach VW and say we want these and we want them cheap or we go to Ford. VW say the van cost £20k, the same as a Ford.

Servicing every 12k costs £300 per van - £300k

Tax for vehicle lets say £120 per vehicle - £120k

Now, VW say we can do this cheaper, what we will do is detune the engine down to 85 or 102bhp (or 115 down from the 140/180 model etc).

This extends the servicing period to 18 months. Over the 3 year lease cycle they only need servicing twice. This now costs £600k instead of £900k for the same vehicles.

Tax is reduced as it's compliant with whatever level its set at (i don't check this stuff that much lol) so instead of tax being £360k over 3 years its now £300k - saving £60k.

Insurance - higher BHP costs £500 per van to insure per year - £500k or £1500k over 3 years.
Lower insurance because of detuned engine (lets say £400 per van) - £400k per year - £1200 over 3 year lease - £300k saving

VW then sell 1000 vans and Ford don't.

The customer tells his boss we have saved anything from £700k to £1m plus on motoring costs, he or she gets a big bonus. :D

This is a simplistic version of why they are at different levels.

The 85/102bhp T5 is the same engine, injectors, egrs, etc, one is tuned to 85 and the other 102 and there's no difference. The 140bhp comes with an extra gear so a different gearbox. The 180 has the same gearbox as the 140 but now they've bolted on an extra turbo.

The engine remains the same. Same injectors, egr's etc.

Can you see where i'm going with this.

I hope this explains why manufacturers have different sized engines in the range.

Oh, and a little known fact, MPG is usually worse in lower powered engines because prop;le drive them harder to maintain the speed of the higher powered engines. :headbang

I'm always happy to talk about this stuff, it costs nothing to ask and no question is a stupid one. :thanks

Kindest regards

Terry
 
D

danny13

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Hi Terry,

Welcome to the forum! Thankfully not everyone on here has the same attitude as David!

Terry your last post explained the situation perfectly :thumb , and I can thoroughly recommend anyone with any doubts to give Terry a call as I found him most helpful discussing my previous T5s.

With regards to people worried about their £40k+ Cali's, yes these are expensive vans but in the tuning world these are some of the 'cheaper' vehicles I imagine Terry deals with.

If you have a 180 I really would question why you're looking to tune as there is so much weight in a cali the only real reason would be to lose the DPF and improve economy. Most of the owners on here barely cover 5000 miles in there cali a year (just look at the used adverts mileages) so unless it is an everyday driver it would seem somewhat pointless to remap for economy especially if you're within the 3 year warranty period. 180 Cali's older than 3 years have a stronger case, as DPF failure come's into play. However I've yet to hear of any DPF failures on this forum....

On a 140 or 115 Beach there is a much more compelling case. Like Terry states these effectively leave the factory in a 'restricted' form to appeal to a different market, insurance, economy etc... Yes the 180 does have some different components, e.g. bigger brakes. However unless you're driving your cali like a hire car your brakes aren't suddenly not going to stop you from 70mph just because you've remapped.
 
2into1

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The customer tells his boss we have saved anything from £700k to £1m plus on motoring costs, he or she gets a big bonus. :D
Well that's an interesting response as in a past life I was Purchasing Director of a multi-national Co and did enjoy a few bonuses by reducing the cost of the fleet!

This latest argument (ie: it's all about VW's marketing) attempts to address why the 84hp exists, but look back down the thread and you'll see different arguments made for different models (unless you are telling me VW put turbo lag on the 180's for marketing reasons). Non of the arguments are particularly 'fact-packed' but just opinions / theories / assumptions.

Pendle are clearly one of the top tuning Co's but it's still a man with a rolling road, a lap top and a good brain vs. thousands of engineers and billions of Euros spent designing the things in the first place. It's not hard to argue that comparing the two, one appears amateur.

Your willingness to defend the removal of DPF doesn't help your case.
 
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T4WFA said:
The customer tells his boss we have saved anything from £700k to £1m plus on motoring costs, he or she gets a big bonus. :D
Well that's an interesting response as in a past life I was Purchasing Director of a multi-national Co and did enjoy a few bonuses by reducing the cost of the fleet!

This latest argument (ie: it's all about VW's marketing) attempts to address why the 84hp exists, but look back down the thread and you'll see different arguments made for different models (unless you are telling me VW put turbo lag on the 180's for marketing reasons). Non of the arguments are particularly 'fact-packed' but just opinions / theories / assumptions.

Pendle are clearly one of the top tuning Co's but it's still a man with a rolling road, a lap top and a good brain vs. thousands of engineers and billions of Euros spent designing the things in the first place. It's not hard to argue that comparing the two, one appears amateur.

Your willingness to defend the removal of DPF doesn't help your case.

There will always be positives and negatives to tuning, dpf delete, cleaning dpf's etc.

Some are for it, some are not.

Describing an industry as amateur, i'm not going to debate that with you, it's your opinion and you are entitle to it, i'm only here trying to give a response to some questions, not ridicule anyone.

Kind regards

Terry
 
Curtis

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Terry I admire your tenacity but you are going to have your work cut out trying to sell remaps into this forum these are camper vans after all.

I would suggest you actually sell something that makes for longer turbo lag to give long leisurely starts and reduces the overall power by at least 30% this may then also save fuel and work with the Blue Motion System that does about the same thing. A set of 10inch wheels and high lift suspension will be a winner as well along with a badge with a tree on it. You could then market a whole range of products into this forum a Pendal branded colostomy bag with an attachment that fits into the sink would be a hot seller it will of course need to be VW authorised but as I am 63 next month I can help you test this out if you supply the booze. Although it may be to late as I have very nearly pissed myself laughing reading this thread.

Also on a personal note Terry will you stop underpricing my Van it was 62k thanks plus 4k for wheels and leather not 55k. You did a great job remapping it, as a pensioner with a bus pass I should of course be in a home and not driving but until that time I now enjoy a lack of turbo lack that was IMO dangerous and greater flexibility and speed. Well done and thanks. :D

Curtis
 
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curtisnash said:
Terry I admire your tenacity but you are going to have your work cut out trying to sell remaps into this forum these are camper vans after all.

I would suggest you actually sell something that makes for longer turbo lag to give long leisurely starts and reduces the overall power by at least 30% this may then also save fuel and work with the Blue Motion System that does about the same thing. A set of 10inch wheels and high lift suspension will be a winner as well along with a badge with a tree on it. You could then market a whole range of products into this forum a Pendal branded colostomy bag with an attachment that fits into the sink would be a hot seller it will of course need to be VW authorised but as I am 63 next month I can help you test this out if you supply the booze. Although it may be to late as I have very nearly sozzled myself laughing reading this thread.

Also on a personal note Terry will you stop underpricing my Van it was 62k thanks plus 4k for wheels and leather not 55k. You did a great job remapping it, as a pensioner with a bus pass I should of course be in a home and not driving but until that time I now enjoy a lack of turbo lack that was IMO dangerous and greater flexibility and speed. Well done and thanks. :D

Curtis
LOL indeed. And it wasn't your van i was referring to at 55k ;)

:goodone
 
2into1

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A set of 10inch wheels and high lift suspension will be a winner as well
Tyre profiles? - Don't get me started on that :lol:
 
J

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I had my Phaeton done not yet had the Van done.

I always have mine done on the rolling road, rather than just an ECU flash, so the behaviour during the tune is monitored and modified accordingly. More than once a tune has been 'dialled back' once we can see the actual curves after each modification and run on the rollers in order to not overstretch the components more than necessary (you have already bought into some risk by taking the step).

Now on the Phaeton we went from 192PS to 265PS and from 450NM to 585NM on run 9. He managed 265PS on the 3rd run. On run 7 he hit over 610NM still at 265PS but as the guy had done his research he knew the ZF box was rated for 600NM so runs 8 & 9 were going down, to 585, not up.

The big big difference was peak torque went from 2800 RPM where it dropped dramatically off to the max of 4,800. This was where he dedicated his attention from runs 3 to 7 and managed a smooth power curve from 1000RPM to 4200RPM and a much slower fall off to 4800. Power at 2,800 was higher than the stock figure as well. On the way home I thought I had 2 extra cylinders.

All this equated to one thing short sprints around cars or lorries on the motorways. It was never going to be a race car and spent 90% of its time on cruise between 70-80. I also got 10% fuel economy after the tune. 36mpg on the 3.0 diesel 4Motion which weighed in at 2.75 tonnes was nice and better than my van by 5mpg (31 at 70, 24 at 80 and 33 at 60). 100,000 miles later I sold the car. Only thing it needed was servicing. Zero issues with the tune at MOT time on the emissions.

As it later turned out VW sell this engine in a marine format and its PS output is ... 265PS, the same as we safely achieved. This did show that VW had deliberately detuned the car, and they might well have had good reason, I did not find that reason in the subsequent 100,000 miles. The car had 60,000 miles on it when I had the tune done and 160,000 when I sold it re-flashed to standard.

Cost was about £450.

These things are for the minority for sure and you have to buy into the risk, but if done right that risk can be minimised.

RS Tuning in Leeds did the work.
 
TH Performance

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Never a truer word said, get it done properly and it won't damage your vehicles.

It's all about sticking within what the car can do, not tuning the backside out of it.

As I said before, these are people's pride and joys, I drive a T5 daily - mines kitted out, pop up roof etc so we know what we can and can't do with them.
 
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