Tesla more valuable than Volkswagen

[soulstyledevon]

But money is irrelevant when you are saving the world.
Apart from that humongous CO2 emission when the Tesla with its battery was manufactured...

Plus the emissions created to power the battery...
It makes no fiscal sense to buy into EV now or the short term.

 

[johnyboy]

But money is irrelevant when you are saving the world.
Apart from that humongous CO2 emission when the Tesla with its battery was manufactured...

Time and time again this is disproven - even the electricity the cars run on is getting cleaner and cleaner
please don't believe all the press you read, possibly sponsored by big oil etc, I'm not a conspiracy theorist but when i read poorly researched sensationalist regurgatism it makes me wonder

 

[soulstyledevon]

Time and time again this is disproven - even the electricity the cars run on is getting cleaner and cleaner
please don't believe all the press you read, possibly sponsored by big oil etc, I'm not a conspiracy theorist but when i read poorly researched sensationalist regurgatism it makes me wonder
View attachment 54936

Just because you don't see or breath in the pollution, doesn't mean its not present...

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction

As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right

www.wired.co.uk

 

[johnyboy]

Tesla stock closed at a record-high of $780 per share on Monday, pushing the California-based electric carmaker’s valuation to $140.591 billion and above the market cap of Volkswagen and BMW combined.

 

[johnyboy]

Just because you don't see or breath in the pollution, doesn't mean its not present...

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction

As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right

www.wired.co.uk

because tar sands and fracking are sooooo fantastic

 

[soulstyledevon]

Tesla stock closed at a record-high of $780 per share on Monday, pushing the California-based electric carmaker’s valuation to $140.591 billion and above the market cap of Volkswagen and BMW combined.

Yes everyones jumping on the bandwagon.
Nothing to do with going green, but a few very powerful men making lots and lots of money...

Remember how everyone jumped from Petrol to Diesel to reduce Co2. Then we realise there are NOX issues...?
But manufacturers sold lots of diesel cars in that transition period. Now look where we are.
Open your eyes.
Want to make a real difference. Don't buy unnecessary products and limit what and where you drive/fly...

 

[Calimili]

because tar sands and fracking are sooooo fantastic

If we want to make a fair and honest comparison we need to take into account ALL the environmental costs, from production right at the source of the materials supply, running and maintaining the vehicle, up to the disposal of the non recyclable parts left. The cost of the infrastructure needed to run vehicles should also taken into account.

 

[johnyboy]

If we want to make a fair and honest comparison we need to take into account ALL the environmental costs, from production right at the source of the materials supply, running and maintaining the vehicle, up to the disposal of the non recyclable parts left. The cost of the infrastructure needed to run vehicles should also taken into account.

which has been done and EV (specifically Tesla) has been proven to be less damaging

 

[johnyboy]

Yes everyones jumping on the bandwagon.
Nothing to do with going green, but a few very powerful men making lots and lots of money...

Remember how everyone jumped from Petrol to Diesel to reduce Co2. Then we realise there are NOX issues...?
But manufacturers sold lots of diesel cars in that transition period. Now look where we are.
Open your eyes.
Want to make a real difference. Don't buy unnecessary products and limit what and where you drive/fly...

absolutely agree - I am not even saying BEV are the best solution - could be hydrogen could be fission... but for now it is better. Stock price is going higher as the shorts lose so much money too

 

[Velma's Dad]

If we want to make a fair and honest comparison we need to take into account ALL the environmental costs, from production right at the source of the materials supply, running and maintaining the vehicle, up to the disposal of the non recyclable parts left. The cost of the infrastructure needed to run vehicles should also taken into account.

Completely agree in principle, but very hard to do in practice. CO2 emissions are hard enough to estimate in a lifetime assessment, but then it becomes a real head scratcher to try to compare local environmental impacts, such as environmental degradation for lithium extraction in South America versus oil drilling in the Arctic versus cost of local air pollution on health in Bristol.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be attempted, but the results will be highly debatable, and will get challenged by those with vested interests, who have pre-conceived positions or who are just fixated on one environmental aspect.

 

[johnyboy]

Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave

Over their lifetime, battery electric vehicles produce far less global warming pollution than their gasoline counterparts—and they’re getting cleaner.

www.ucsusa.org

No, diesel is not better for the environment than electric

Rebuttal to Christoph Buchal, Hans-Dieter Karl and Hans-Werner Sinn titled “Coal Engines, Wind Engines and Diesel Engines. What does the CO2 balance show?”

innovationorigins.com

Fighting FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) aimed at electric cars (including sources), infographics, links, wording and pictures ready for you to copy and paste - Tesla Owners UK

Answers within this article have been put together by members of our community [primarily from this post], of course, you could argue we’re biased in our responses, however, we’ve linked to as many external sources as possible and do encourage everyone to do their own research as well. To be...

teslaownersgroup.co.uk

 

[WelshGas]

which has been done and EV (specifically Tesla) has been proven to be less damaging

And your not into conspiracy theories?

 

[willwander]

15 years to go, not long

“A ban on selling new petrol, diesel or hybrid cars in the UK will be brought forward from 2040 to 2035 at the latest, under government plans.”

Petrol and diesel car sales ban brought forward to 2035

Boris Johnson unveils the plan as he launches a "year of climate action" alongside Sir David Attenborough.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Calimili]

Completely agree in principle, but very hard to do in practice. CO2 emissions are hard enough to estimate in a lifetime assessment, but then it becomes a real head scratcher to try to compare local environmental impacts, such as environmental degradation for lithium extraction in South America versus oil drilling in the Arctic versus cost of local air pollution on health in Bristol.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be attempted, but the results will be highly debatable, and will get challenged by those with vested interests, who have pre-conceived positions or who are just fixated on one environmental aspect.

Therefore you cannot say a EV is less polluting than a Petrol/diesel one

 

[Nolan]

I live near a busy road and I'd much rather have a queue of EVs with zero tailpipe emissions than a queue of diesel or petrol vehicles.It's local pollution which is what is driving the push to EV.

Naturally the ultimate answer is to reduce car dependency as even an EV emits particulates (tyres and brakes) and they still produce emissions where the power is generated (even wind and solar depend on infrastructure).

The traditional premium car makers have been complacent, you can't help think they expected Tesla to go bang and pick up the crumbs.

I'm still happy owning a diesel Cali, it's still the right fuel to give me the range I need in such a big vehicle.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Therefore you cannot say a EV is less polluting than a Petrol/diesel one

I mean that we're unlikely to be able to come up with an answer that everyone will buy into, because it depends what you mean by "polluting" and hence how you put numbers on the relative harms of different forms of pollution and its impacts globally and locally. Personally I'd count GHG emissions very highly, but you're free to weight other types of pollution more heavily in your own analysis if you want.

Still, we surely ought to be open to a range of perspectives and efforts to quantify costs/harms and benefits. Even then, a really robust life cycle analysis would need to be based on a lot of assumptions about future factors. But that doesn't mean we can't get a feel for what the "big and ugly" factors are likely to be in the calculus.

For what it's worth, it appears to me that one of the biggest factors will be the level of future de-carbonisation of electricity supply. Actually that seems to be progressing steadily, and actually surprisingly quickly in the UK at least.

 

[WelshGas]

One of the biggest problems is people confusing Climate Change and Enviromental Pollution. They are not the same.
Diesel is better for Climate Change than Petrol, less CO2, but worse for the Enviroment.
Likewise EVs, better for Climate, provided the electricity s from clean sources, but Enviroment is a different matter because of the rare earths/elements required for batteries and the additional power generation and distribution systems.
Also, replacing fossil powered vehicles with EV equivalent also impacts both the climate and environment.
There is no easy answer but I fear the dash for EVs is another debacle similar to the dash for Diesel, and look where that has led us, damaging the Environment at the expense of the Climate.
The Law of Unintended Consequences is alive and flourishing.

 

[Velma's Dad]

One of the biggest problems is people confusing Climate Change and Enviromental Pollution. They are not the same.
Diesel is better for Climate Change than Petrol, less CO2, but worse for the Enviroment.
Likewise EVs, better for Climate, provided the electricity s from clean sources, but Enviroment is a different matter because of the rare earths/elements required for batteries and the additional power generation and distribution systems.
Also, replacing fossil powered vehicles with EV equivalent also impacts both the climate and environment.
There is no easy answer but I fear the dash for EVs is another debacle similar to the dash for Diesel, and look where that has led us, damaging the Environment at the expense of the Climate.
The Law of Unintended Consequences is alive and flourishing.

Yes there will certainly be unintended consequences of any major shift in transport technology. Although personally I wouldn't describe the shift towards EVs as a rush, it seems pretty slow to me (the Victorians built the railways in about 20 years!).

Rebound effects are often a gotcha (when changing the cost of something, people may do more/less of something else).

However... the cost of doing nothing on CC is, in my view, extremely high. And if policymakers choose laissez-faire, the market will still effect change willy nilly - but markets are famously bad at achieving "best" outcomes when it comes to environmental (and now CC) outcomes.

 

[Calimili]

We aren't debating if something needs to be done to reduce CO2 emissions and pollution in general, we all agree on this I hope.
From here, to say that EVs are the solutions... it's very debatable.
Policymakers have been useless so far. They are driven by consent and media, not but what's right really for the environment. Look how much exposure is Greta getting, why don't the policymakers ask clarifications about the environment and CC to some Nobel prizes rather than a 17 year old girl with plenty of goodwill, but limited knowledge?
In EU it has gone so far that the left/right party debate has shaped into a misguided environmental issue. So I certainly cannot expect a solution from politicians, that 15-20 years ago where so concern with CO2 that pushed us to buy diesel to reduce that.

 

[clarinetbcn]

Look how much exposure is Greta getting, why don't the policymakers ask clarifications about the environment and CC to some Nobel prizes rather than a 17 year old girl with plenty of goodwill, but limited knowledge?

The only reason she's getting so much attention from the media is that the Nobels have been warning us for decades and the policymakers have very publicly turned a deaf ear.

 

[willwander]

We aren't debating if something needs to be done to reduce CO2 emissions and pollution in general, we all agree on this I hope.
From here, to say that EVs are the solutions... it's very debatable.
Policymakers have been useless so far. They are driven by consent and media, not but what's right really for the environment. Look how much exposure is Greta getting, why don't the policymakers ask clarifications about the environment and CC to some Nobel prizes rather than a 17 year old girl with plenty of goodwill, but limited knowledge?
In EU it has gone so far that the left/right party debate has shaped into a misguided environmental issue. So I certainly cannot expect a solution from politicians, that 15-20 years ago where so concern with CO2 that pushed us to buy diesel to reduce that.

Greta gets the headlines because...As politicians and the advertising industry has long known, people respond to feelings and emotion, not to logic, science or engineering.

Same with the left/right split. Same with the EV debate.

EVs may or may not be the right solution, hindsight is a wonderful thing, if you wait long enough you can always say I told you so, but like it or not they are going to happen.

 

[willwander]

One of the biggest problems is people confusing Climate Change and Enviromental Pollution. They are not the same.
Diesel is better for Climate Change than Petrol, less CO2, but worse for the Enviroment.
Likewise EVs, better for Climate, provided the electricity s from clean sources, but Enviroment is a different matter because of the rare earths/elements required for batteries and the additional power generation and distribution systems.
Also, replacing fossil powered vehicles with EV equivalent also impacts both the climate and environment.
There is no easy answer but I fear the dash for EVs is another debacle similar to the dash for Diesel, and look where that has led us, damaging the Environment at the expense of the Climate.
The Law of Unintended Consequences is alive and flourishing.

So if we wait long enough we will see that EVs were a big mistake, just like diesels were, just like ICEs and the oil industry were, just like steam engines were, just like horses were.

You can’t sit and wait and do nothing forever, just because eventually, it’s likely to be a mistake. You have to try and do something, it’s called progress.

 

[Nolan]

Putting the environmental arguments to one side and getting back to the point of the thread, Tesla are is highly valued because people want them...

If you can afford to buy, or lease, a Model 3, the running costs are drastically reduced over a petrol or diesel car.

I'd have one like a shot for my commute as they are damn quick, nice to drive (no gears!) and I don't need to worry about stopping for fuel ever as it would charge at home overnight. I don't have one as I purchased the Beach you can see on the left so I do appreciate that there are other factors when buying a car but if buying new it's hard to overlook the Model 3 which is why they have full order books they are making the competition look very old fashioned.

I can't imagine buying a similarly priced VW or BMW over a Model 3, it would be slower and more expensive to run, even if it's better screwed together.

 

[soulstyledevon]

But a model 3 is sooooooo ugly. Plus its £50k...?
You can buy a 3 series and still have £20k for fuel. Which is a lot of fuel...!!!

Honestly, buying a Tesla is like announcing to the world your favourite past time is knitting and erections only happen with little pills

 

[larrylamb]

My boss has just got a BMW 530E hybrid, 0-60 in 6 seconds and up to 128mpg, emissions 49g/km, says it is costing him peanuts to run.
What would worry me would be the "6 month" repair time for Tesla cars involved in scrapes etc.