VW California Not Welcome At Portree, Skye

[Deskman]

Many will have their own definitions. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

The attendant, you mean?

 

[Aidy P]

I’m back home from our trip and checked my V5 which states that my vehicle is a ‘Diesel Car’ for its taxation class.

I’ve appealed. Wish me luck please everyone

 

[WelshGas]

I’m back home from our trip and checked my V5 which states that my vehicle is a ‘Diesel Car’ for its taxation class.

I’ve appealed. Wish me luck please everyone

And Body Type?

 

[Aidy P]

And Body Type?

Motor Caravan … but with the taxation class, there is clear ambiguity

 

[WelshGas]

Motor Caravan … but with the taxation class, there is clear ambiguity

Sorry, but I don't believe there is. Campervans, VW Californias or 3rd party conversions can be Diesel Car ,PLG or N1 Commercial and Body Type Motor Caravan, MPV or Van with Windows. The Council will have its own definition of what constitues a Campervan.
I would have thought you are more likely to succeed with an Appeal based on the poor signage specifying Campervans and no additional information directing to the alternative parking site.

 

[Aidy P]

Sorry, but I don't believe there is. Campervans, VW Californias or 3rd party conversions can be Diesel Car ,PLG or N1 Commercial and Body Type Motor Caravan, MPV or Van with Windows. The Council will have its own definition of what constitues a Campervan.
I would have thought you are more likely to succeed with an Appeal based on the poor signage specifying Campervans and no additional information directing to the alternative parking site.

I’ve made that point too about the signage

 

[campandfly]

I have not read all posts in this thread but surely there must be a regulation regarding legal standards for signage.

Eg. Font size and type. Location of a sign, visibility, colour of a sign etc. Is it clearly visible or has been scratched or bleached out by UV etc. Is it obscured by vegetation, vehicles or other?

For an extreme example would a very thin type of font with a size of say 6pt 15ft above the ground be lawful?

In other words what is a lawful sign and what it is not. If the sign is not lawful then surely the fine cannot be enforced.

 

[dspuk]

I'm not going to comment on the parking, it's covered in detail and you can fly either way on it.

I would say the comments about the attendent, weight and attitude and uncalled for.

It's a sh*t job in sh*t circumstances and the people doing it get moaned to and shouted at all day.

But they are just people, making a wage, trying to get through their day. They are not paid to "make an exception" and given everyone will have the same request not really valid for them to do all day.

If you get a ticket, at least be courteous about it and then appeal on the grounds you think you are not at fault for.

I recall the That's Life days and in most cases Esther can stick her gold jobsworth hat up her jacksie - many of these people too were just doing their jobs.

 

[mrkjd]

Your first official appeal probably won’t succeed no matter how valid. The process is next to a sham. You will likely have to wait for a Letter Before Action and fight your case up to and including the court. They know you will likely give up as the fine grows and their attack-dog ambulance chasers hit you with more threats and bailiffs. And they can always just drop it hours before the hearing if you persevere. Most just cough up and learn to hate the poor sod who is just doing their job a little more.

As others have stated, the strongest aspect for any appeal appears to be the signage. Have you posted in one of the Parking Forums like the example I linked? MoneySavingExpert and Pepipoo are 2 others. They will give you the best advice and will ask for an upload of the ticket to see if there was any mistake by the attendant that can be leveraged. It’s surprising how often this happens. Sending in the appeal you may well have already scuppered getting it dropped by implying you were the driver ( not sure how this pans out for Council / Scotland). You MUST play them at their own game and do the hard yards if you truely want to fight this.

 

[RockinNRollin]

I'm not going to comment on the parking, it's covered in detail and you can fly either way on it.

I would say the comments about the attendent, weight and attitude and uncalled for.

It's a sh*t job in sh*t circumstances and the people doing it get moaned to and shouted at all day.

But they are just people, making a wage, trying to get through their day. They are not paid to "make an exception" and given everyone will have the same request not really valid for them to do all day.

If you get a ticket, at least be courteous about it and then appeal on the grounds you think you are not at fault for.

I recall the That's Life days and in most cases Esther can stick her gold jobsworth hat up her jacksie - many of these people too were just doing their jobs.

Absolutely this. The attendant is just following "the rules" of the car park. If they started to interpret what those rules mean or how they should be applied, they'd be slung out of their jobs. Those debates are to be had with the authority issuing the ticket and unfortunately, unless you've pre-empted the situation, after a ticket has been issued to you.

 

[The Merle]

Question is does that symbol of a Motorhome cover campervans or should they be using another one aswell as the wording.
Feels very grey and on there side.
Hope you do win or manage to get them to improve sign.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Wot, and lose all that lovely lolly. There's method to their madness.

Stealth taxes. There’s a camera making Hammersmith & Fulham £1m/month. Mafia shakedown!

Hammersmith and Fulham Council's Low Traffic Neighbourhoods: Divisive Scheme or Eco-Friendly Solution?

www.carsupermarket.com

 

[Klakski]

The sign … and the tiny sticker under the motorhome picture that was pointed out to me by the warden. Would anybody else have spotted it?View attachment 121046

My question is who has put the sticker on the sign cause it does not look official to me at all.
I it said that Californias were free to park you wouldn’t believe it either.
It would be my ground to appeal

 

[Corradobrit]

My question is who has put the sticker on the sign cause it does not look official to me at all.
I it said that Californias were free to park you wouldn’t believe it either.
It would be my ground to appeal

It’s on other Highland Council parking signs like the one only a giraffe could read. It’s not a disgruntled local vigilante with a label printer

 

[flying banana]

its a legal requirement that all parking areas have clear markings and signage, that signage is just a sticker. case closed. also legally you don't have to pay a pcn until a court orders you to do so,so hopefully the cost of going to court is enough for it to be dropped,but good luck.
as for traffic wardens 'just doing their jobs' i disagree,bit like pub bouncers,yellow vest wearers,security guards etc,alot of them are absolute arse holes who won't be reasoned with.
good luck

 

[Lee.Van.Cleef]

I have not read all posts in this thread but surely there must be a regulation regarding legal standards for signage.

Eg. Font size and type. Location of a sign, visibility, colour of a sign etc. Is it clearly visible or has been scratched or bleached out by UV etc. Is it obscured by vegetation, vehicles or other?

For an extreme example would a very thin type of font with a size of say 6pt 15ft above the ground be lawful?

In other words what is a lawful sign and what it is not. If the sign is not lawful then surely the fine cannot be enforced.

I'd be surprised if there is a regulation on font size, more likely there is non-binding 'best practice' guidance.

That being said, it's reasonable to expect there to be a test of 'reasonableness' or good faith when issuing penalty notices and posting the notice out of eyeline might not be everyone's idea of 'good faith' or 'best practice'.

Again that's a subjective judgement, but provided an appeal (or complaint) is worded courteously I'd hope you'd get a fair hearing.

 

[CaliMac]

Sorry to be Devils advocate: my google search for 'no campervan parking' images all showed moho icons, none showed both moho and a campervan, some show tent / caravan / moho. The council could argue that the sign provided additional definition of what constitutes a motor caravan given that by nature of their size, mohos would not fit in a normal parking space anyway i.e not an issue.
Sometimes even though you feel agreived you just got take it on the chin and move on. I did this few months ago when I got a charge in a car park, fuming as I was, I eventually realised the stress / effort would exceed the £60 fine.

 

[andyinluton]

Sorry to be Devils advocate: my google search for 'no campervan parking' images all showed moho icons, none showed both moho and a campervan, some show tent / caravan / moho.

There is no difference in any of the DVLAs definitions between a Campervan & a motorhome, in their eyes they are the same thing.
I did look for definitions on the Highlands TRO to see if there was any approved signage & I couldn't find anything.

I did spot however that the TRO refers to "vehicles adapted for sleeping"
not Motorhomes. This would make me consider arguing that with the seats up my cali is a passenger vehicle, it's not until the bed is made up or the pop top raised that it becomes adapted for sleeping.

It would be useful if someone. could post a picture of the wording on the payment machine.
If the wording is on there it could be argued that the big sign with crosses through is really just a heads up rather than the official signage.

In my search for an official approved motorhome symbol I found one for roadside parking & it was news to me that the symbol showing the back end of a car + a caravan with a cross through it means no parking for caravans or motor caravans. Not just caravans as the picture below:

 

[RockinNRollin]

There is no difference in any of the DVLAs definitions between a Campervan & a motorhome, in their eyes they are the same thing.
I did look for definitions on the Highlands TRO to see if there was any approved signage & I couldn't find anything.

I did spot however that the TRO refers to "vehicles adapted for sleeping"
not Motorhomes. This would make me consider arguing that with the seats up my cali is a passenger vehicle, it's not until the bed is made up or the pop top raised that it becomes adapted for sleeping.

It would be useful if someone. could post a picture of the wording on the payment machine.
If the wording is on there it could be argued that the big sign with crosses through is really just a heads up rather than the official signage.

In my search for an official approved motorhome symbol I found one for roadside parking & it was news to me that the symbol showing the back end of a car + a caravan with a cross through it means no parking for caravans or motor caravans. Not just caravans as the picture below:View attachment 121374

those look like TSRGD / Traffic Signs Manual entries; applicable to the highway only and not public (or private) car parks. I don’t think there are rules in the same way for car parks. I would also suggest just because the bed isn’t made up doesn’t mean the vehicle isn’t adapted for sleeping; it might not be set up to sleep in at that moment, but the vehicle has still been adapted (enter the next query; the Cali is unusual in that it comes from the factory and original manufacturer as an original design. There’s no donor vehicle nor any “adaption” as it was always designed and built that way. Tenous…?).

 

[andyinluton]

those look like TSRGD / Traffic Signs Manual entries; applicable to the highway only and not public (or private) car parks. I don’t think there are rules in the same way for car parks.

I was looking for any rules & regs for carpark signage & kept ending back at that manual.
I’m not sure if that is applicable to a council run public car park - it’s subject to a TRO which would suggest it’s different rules to a privately owned one.

 

[RockinNRollin]

I was looking for any rules & regs for carpark signage & kept ending back at that manual.
I’m not sure if that is applicable to a council run public car park - it’s subject to a TRO which would suggest it’s different rules to a privately owned one.

I'm not sure - many moons ago I used to work in highway design and TSRGD was "the bible" for traffic design specifics. I don't recall the markings found within car parks being in it. I did design a car park once in my early days (this is multiple decades ago!) and I recall there was a design standard, but it was a different one. The TRO is possibly just about making it enforceable by civil parking enforcement officers?

 

[Aidy P]

Well here is the response ….

Thank you for your correspondence received.

We have considered your explanation but will not cancel your parking ticket under these circumstances.
The parking ticket was issued because the vehicle was parked in a car park or area not designated for that class of vehicle.
The parking bays are mainly for cars, motorcycles and light goods vehicles. The car park sign clearly advises motorists of this. If the vehicle has been converted to another body type, then the vehicle may not be permitted to park.
On the 'Conditions of use' sign it clearly advises the following are not permitted: Part (M) "Parking of vehicles manufactured for or adapted for the purpose of sleeping". We are satisfied the sign is correctly positioned in the car park informing motorists of this. The onus is with the driver to comply with the conditions of use.
In this case, the Parking Attendant has recorded that the vehicle is a campervan because it has been adapted for the purpose of sleeping inside the vehicle.
Although the vehicle registration document shows the body type as a car doesn't mean the vehicle hasn't been converted. The description is simply to enable the police and other enforcement agencies to easily identify vehicles. It is important to remember even if the vehicle's body type shows it is as a car, the vehicle can still be used for another purpose.
We are sorry if you felt that the Parking Attendant was rude to you. We expect Parking Attendants to act courteously while on duty and they are given special training on this part of their job.
In view of the above we are satisfied that the parking ticket was correctly issued and it will not be cancelled.

The charge was at the discount rate of £50.00 when we received your correspondence. We have given you a further 14 days from the date of this reply to pay the discount amount. If you pay within this time, the case will be closed. If we do not receive your payment, the discount will end and the full amount of £100.00 will be due.
If you want to continue to challenge the parking ticket, do not make payment; instead wait until we issue the Notice to Owner. We will send this to the registered keeper of the vehicle once the discount period has ended. Please note that the charge will then be £100.00.
For details of how to pay or to challenge this further, please read the enclosed Information Sheets.

TO CHALLENGE A PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE
If you want to challenge this Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket), you should wait for the Not ice to Owner form, which we will send to the registered keeper/owner automatically if we do not receive payment. This form will give you an opportunity to dispute the ticket further. This is called making Formal Representations. Please note that if you make Formal Representations and you are unsuccessful, you must pay the ticket at the full charge amount detailed on the original ticket.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1991, there are only six reasons which you can base your case on. We do not have to cancel parking tickets in other circumstances, although we will carefully consider every case on its merits.
The six acceptable reasons are:
(a) I was not the owner/keeper/hirer of the vehicle at the time of the contravention. We will need to see a receipt of sale of the vehicle with the name and address of the new owner.
(b) The contravention did not occur. For example, if your vehicle was not there or if you were loading or unloading from a yellow line during permitted hours. Enclose any relevant details, such as delivery note (required for claims of loading or unloading.
(c) The vehicle was taken without my consent. The vehicle had been stolen at the time of the contravention. You must enclose evidence such as a copy of the crime abstract report or an insurance claim.
(d) The Traffic Order was invalid. You believe that the parking restriction was not covered by a traffic order, or the order is invalid or illegal. Please explain on a separate sheet of paper why the order was invalid
(e) We are a vehicle hire firm and have supplied hirer`s details. The vehicle was on hire at the time of the contravention and the hirer signed a formal agreement accepting liability for parking contraventions.
(f) The penalty exceeded the relevant amount. The amount shown on the parking ticket is more than you are legally liable to pay.

If we reject your formal representations, we will send you appeal forms to complete and send to the Scottish Parking Appeals Service, where an independent adjudicator will review your case. The adjudicator`s decision is final and binding on both parties.
HOW TO PAY A PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE
If you want to pay now and bring the case to a close, you can do so by the following methods:
By telephone
To pay this notice instantly and easily by credit or debit card, phone our 24 hour payment line on 0343 224 1888. Calls are charged at local rate. We now accept Maestro, Visa Delta, Electron debit cards and Visa and MasterCard credit cards.
By internet
If you are paying via the internet you must go to www.highland.gov.uk and and access the link Paying Parking tickets then follow instructions.
By post
If you are paying by cheque or postal order, please make the cheque payable to The Highland Council. Please use the tear off slip at the bottom of the parking ticket or alternatively write the Penalty Charge Notice number, which starts with HC, and your address on the back of the cheque and send it to:
Parking Services
The Highland Council PO Box 261
Hellaby
Sheffield
S98 1TP
Send a stamped, self-addressed envelope with your payment if you want us to send a receipt. Please note that The Council cannot be held responsible for any delays or delivery failures.

Frankly I have neither the time nor energy to take this further. I’ll chalk it up as a learning experience. I just hope that be creating this thread others will avoid this situation. Time to move on.

 

[chockswahay]

I agree with you, take the hit now, pay the £50 and free yourself from further stress and angst. Looked at that way it will be £50 well spent. Life really is too short!

Your post has brought this fiasco to many other peoples attention so hopefully will allow them to avoid suffering the same misfortune.

Pay it, bin it, move on

 

[chockswahay]

I should add that historically I would have gone out of my way to correct this injustice. But I have learnt (too many times) that the victory is hard won, involving considerable grief, time and inconvenience only to be a weird sort of ‘Pyrrhic Victory’ at best

 

[Deskman]

Portree still wants to discriminate based on vehicle use, not vehicle size, which is strange and unwelcoming. But I also see the pressure on the local people by tourism. Even if the local economy is doing well because of tourism, problems with traffic and too many people at once are quite real. I have lived in a small coastal village for a few years and know what it looks like.

I camped all my life in a small tent without chairs and tables and never lit campfires. I try to be as invisible as possible and leave almost no trace.

I try to 'wild camp' whenever possible—not because I don't want to spend money but because I love to be alone in the woods for those few weeks of travelling around. Being seen as part of the problem with over-tourism and overuse of nature does not feel great, to say the least.

Blaming Instagram and the tourist board does not help us, and I don't know what will.