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Which electric car to buy?

Velma's Dad

Velma's Dad

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According to Volvo it takes 70,000 miles for an electric car to be less polluting than its petrol equivalent. All electric pollution in the Production phase.
(probably a repeated comment)

Never kept a vehicle for that many miles, other than Company ones.
It doesn't matter to the atmosphere how long you the first owner keep it, all that matters is how long it stays in use until it's finally scrapped. Modern ICE cars are reasonably expected to have a lifespan of 200,000 miles, and EVs greater than that. Once beyond that "break even" point (which may well be 70,000 miles per your example) the EV's marginal emissions are then massively lower than the ICE's, although depending of course on the carbon intensity of grid electricity at that point and location.
 
Wildcamper

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It doesn't matter to the atmosphere how long you the first owner keep it, all that matters is how long it stays in use until it's finally scrapped. Modern ICE cars are reasonably expected to have a lifespan of 200,000 miles, and EVs greater than that. Once beyond that "break even" point (which may well be 70,000 miles per your example) the EV's marginal emissions are then massively lower than the ICE's, although depending of course on the carbon intensity of grid electricity at that point and location.
It's very unlikely that EVs will have a longer lifespan than ICE vehicles. It's not the powerplant that's the issues but the structural integrity of the body work. I have had two BMWs that I had to scrap after nearly 500,000 miles each, I did not have them from new. The engines were fine, the body work collapsed and could not be repaired so failed their MOTs. There is no reason to believe that the bodywork on EVs will be any better than on current ICE vehicles.
 
willwander

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Quite possibly true currently. So long as investment into hydrogen production continues to increase this number will increase.

There are also significant transportation and storage issues with Hydrogen.

Typically you have to compress it to very high pressures or liquify it, (both use a lot of energy). This makes storage tanks very heavy, making transportation on trucks, inefficient.

Hydrogen atoms, being very small, like to leak, mix this in with hydrogen-embrittlement, which tends to crack traditional steels and welds and you have more problems with storage tanks and pipelines.

It's also pretty dangerous, Hydrogen burns with an invisible flame meaning hydrogen fires are impossible to see with the naked eye, it also burns with a low radiant heat meaning you can't feel a hydrogen fire until you actually touch it.

High pressure Hydrogen is extremely flammable, think football field explosion flammable.

All make Hydrogen transportation and storage...tricky.
 
Wildcamper

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There are also significant transportation and storage issues with Hydrogen.

Typically you have to compress it to very high pressures or liquify it, (both use a lot of energy). This makes storage tanks very heavy, making transportation on trucks, inefficient.

Hydrogen atoms, being very small, like to leak, mix this in with hydrogen-embrittlement, which tends to crack traditional steels and welds and you have more problems with storage tanks and pipelines.

It's also pretty dangerous, Hydrogen burns with an invisible flame meaning hydrogen fires are impossible to see with the naked eye, it also burns with a low radiant heat meaning you can't feel a hydrogen fire until you actually touch it.

High pressure Hydrogen is extremely flammable, think football field explosion flammable.

All make Hydrogen transportation and storage...tricky.
Have you ever worked with hydrogen, are you talking from experience, rumour, feelings? Yes there are some issues with hydrogen, I do not have hydrogen shared. On hydrogen transportation, this can be quite easy through existing pipework. Yes it does pass through materials but not that fast. Metal embrittle ment can be an issue but barrier solutions exist. On safety, in many aspects it is safer than petrol/diesel because it disperses so quickly unlike liquid or heavy gas fuels. Compression is expensive, no getting away from that. Many people think of Hindenburg when thinking hydrogen, hydrogen was not the key problem in that tragedy, it was the diesel that did the damage. I have worked with hydrogen and would have no fears driving a hydrogen vehicle. On the other hand, short out a battery pack charged to several Mw then you have a real problem and the explosion and release of molten metal and toxic chemicals is something to behold.
 
willwander

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Have you ever worked with hydrogen, are you talking from experience, rumour, feelings? Yes there are some issues with hydrogen, I do not have hydrogen shared. On hydrogen transportation, this can be quite easy through existing pipework. Yes it does pass through materials but not that fast. Metal embrittle ment can be an issue but barrier solutions exist. On safety, in many aspects it is safer than petrol/diesel because it disperses so quickly unlike liquid or heavy gas fuels. Compression is expensive, no getting away from that. Many people think of Hindenburg when thinking hydrogen, hydrogen was not the key problem in that tragedy, it was the diesel that did the damage. I have worked with hydrogen and would have no fears driving a hydrogen vehicle. On the other hand, short out a battery pack charged to several Mw then you have a real problem and the explosion and release of molten metal and toxic chemicals is something to behold.
Nope. I’m just a regular idiot that likes to read.
Batteries, Hydrogen, I’m not fussed either way. , just seems everyone thinks Hydrogen is easy.
 
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Wildcamper

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Nope. I’m just a regular idiot that likes to read.
Batteries, Hydrogen, I’m not fussed either way. , just seems everyone thinks Hydrogen is easy.
Hydrogen is not easy, batteries are not easy. There are pros and cons for both. Hydrogen for transportation is much easier than batteries - a hydrogen ICE engine is very similar to a petrol/diesel engine. Hydrogen storage is more difficult than batteries. Hydrogen can be used for long distance flight, batteries can't. Won't go on, neither are easy. Could easily end up with both.
 
SusiBus

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Did anyone watch this BBC Panorama report last night…?

It’s made me think twice, that’s for sure.
Yep, it was a must watch for everyone considering buying a new vehicle. This world is a terrible place on occasions. The rich exploiting the poor, us the consumers turning a blind eye, and carrying on with our luxury lifestyle.
 
Wildcamper

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Yep, it was a must watch for everyone considering buying a new vehicle. This world is a terrible place on occasions. The rich exploiting the poor, us the consumers turning a blind eye, and carrying on with our luxury lifestyle.
I must sound like a stuck record. I have been saying, and been shouted down, for years that electric vehicles have this, and other, hidden environmental nasties, even on this site. If you think this was bad, and do consider that this program was "popular journalism", wait until they do one on neodymium mining and smelting. To us here all these problems are off shore, out of sight out of mind. Electric vehicles are a minefield of (hidden?) environmental nastiness! Sorry to be a bore, each electric vehicle purchased is a step towards an inevitable environmental disaster.
 
Wildcamper

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GrumpyGranddad

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I must sound like a stuck record. I have been saying, and been shouted down, for years that electric vehicles have this, and other, hidden environmental nasties, even on this site. If you think this was bad, and do consider that this program was "popular journalism", wait until they do one on neodymium mining and smelting. To us here all these problems are off shore, out of sight out of mind. Electric vehicles are a minefield of (hidden?) environmental nastiness! Sorry to be a bore, each electric vehicle purchased is a step towards an inevitable environmental disaster.
Careful now @Wildcamper , you’ll incur the wrath of a certain forum member and be accused of being an oil company shareholder and a climate change denier :) :) :)
 
Hedley Wright

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Good luck to JCB

You do realise that over 95% of all hydrogen is produced from burning gas/oil/coal?
Also the efficiency of converted engines remains very low compared to electric motors.
 
soulstyledevon

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Yep, it was a must watch for everyone considering buying a new vehicle. This world is a terrible place on occasions. The rich exploiting the poor, us the consumers turning a blind eye, and carrying on with our luxury lifestyle.

It really is abhorrent…
I’m glad I watched it. It’s giving me time to re-assess future choices.
 
H

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I am think different most other peoples.

Countries what is develop now, China, India, and country inside South America and Africa makes Very Very large pollute to earth atmosphere.

Usa such many peoples, very large energy consume many purposes and make pollution.

So small Europe country such is Norway make clean energy, many electric car. But Norway is so little.
Even if is Norway 1 day zero pollute, all rest world increases their pollute and what is Norway do make no effect.
And is same if is Germany do same and Uk, other little countries.

I am think, Europe can try most hard, but cannot fixing damage what is make from China, India, Usa, Africa and South America.
They will poison the atmosphere.

And then when is air too much toxic human to survive, and is Human life dies, then is the world has time fixing self. Plants animal and fishes can growing again and helping re balancing atmosphere.

Then if is human develop again another generation, they can finding writings from how is the world poison 1st time from stupid 1st generation human today.

I think is must this life humans be extinguish / poison air we all make self and is next generation can learning not doing same again.

Planet will be fine,
Is human life that is have big problem comes future.
 
clarinetbcn

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I am think different most other peoples.

Countries what is develop now, China, India, and country inside South America and Africa makes Very Very large pollute to earth atmosphere.

Usa such many peoples, very large energy consume many purposes and make pollution.

So small Europe country such is Norway make clean energy, many electric car. But Norway is so little.
Even if is Norway 1 day zero pollute, all rest world increases their pollute and what is Norway do make no effect.
And is same if is Germany do same and Uk, other little countries.

I am think, Europe can try most hard, but cannot fixing damage what is make from China, India, Usa, Africa and South America.
They will poison the atmosphere.

And then when is air too much toxic human to survive, and is Human life dies, then is the world has time fixing self. Plants animal and fishes can growing again and helping re balancing atmosphere.

Then if is human develop again another generation, they can finding writings from how is the world poison 1st time from stupid 1st generation human today.

I think is must this life humans be extinguish / poison air we all make self and is next generation can learning not doing same again.

Planet will be fine,
Is human life that is have big problem comes future.
I have a similar view, see post #245
 
Wildcamper

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Also the efficiency of converted engines remains very low compared to electric motor

I am think different most other peoples.

Countries what is develop now, China, India, and country inside South America and Africa makes Very Very large pollute to earth atmosphere.

Usa such many peoples, very large energy consume many purposes and make pollution.

So small Europe country such is Norway make clean energy, many electric car. But Norway is so little.
Even if is Norway 1 day zero pollute, all rest world increases their pollute and what is Norway do make no effect.
And is same if is Germany do same and Uk, other little countries.

I am think, Europe can try most hard, but cannot fixing damage what is make from China, India, Usa, Africa and South America.
They will poison the atmosphere.

And then when is air too much toxic human to survive, and is Human life dies, then is the world has time fixing self. Plants animal and fishes can growing again and helping re balancing atmosphere.

Then if is human develop again another generation, they can finding writings from how is the world poison 1st time from stupid 1st generation human today.

I think is must this life humans be extinguish / poison air we all make self and is next generation can learning not doing same again.

Planet will be fine,
Is human life that is have big problem comes future.
Overpopulation is the problem but no government will discuss this.
 

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