Which electric car to buy?

[WelshGas]

And yet, with EVs having by now generated a bunch of reasonably good actuarial data for insurance companies, EVs are not overall especially more expensive to insure than their ICE counterparts.

(If cars had just been invented the Telegraph would no doubt be writing articles citing "industry insiders" about how much more expensive it's going to be to replace all those expensive tyres, compared with forging horseshoes.)

Others would disagree.
The Dealerships are in the business of selling new vehicles or making costly repairs, such as exchanging a battery pack instead of repairing the old one.

Electric car servicing and repairs in the UK: costs, pitfalls and finding a local garage | Auto Express

The popularity of electric cars is growing exponentially. But with more and more on the road, where do you go to get your pride and joy maintained and repaired?

www.autoexpress.co.uk

 

[andyinluton]

And yet, with EVs having by now generated a bunch of reasonably good actuarial data for insurance companies, EVs are not overall especially more expensive to insure than their ICE counterparts.

Average of 19% increase since 2022 for all car insurance, according to the Comfused.com insurance price index. They cite the increased cost of repairs as the main factor.
Don’t forget it’s not just the electric car owner that pays the increased costs it’s all owners as the chances of hitting an electric car are increasing all the time.

 

[Corradobrit]

Don’t forget it’s not just the electric car owner that pays the increased costs it’s all owners as the chances of hitting an electric car are increasing all the time.

And being hit by one. Personal liability will likewise increase to cover claims from pedestrians and their families who are hit by these silent assassins.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

We lease 2 electric cars through salary sacrifice and think they are absolute great! We’re very pleased we have the option to lease this way as it’s really cost effective, but we would not buy an EV as things stand currently…we’d definitely by an ICE car, even though we FAR prefer how electric cars drive. The extra expense for a EV just isn’t worth it over ICE right now. When new the range on EVs is no issue at all, but with age this will only diminish. Long term ownership for EVs doesn’t seem very attractive right now, but in 2-4 years time we think that’ll change quite a bit.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

And being hit by one. Personal liability will likewise increase to cover claims from pedestrians and their families who are hit by these silent assassins.

Lots of EV’s have radar fitted so will hit the brakes before the driver should a muppet step out without looking.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Lots of EV’s have radar fitted so will hit the brakes before the driver should a muppet step out without looking.

Wouldn’t matter if it was silent electric.
Most pedestrian seem to walk around with headphones on, they already lost one sense…

 

[WelshGas]

The main problem seems with 2nd hand vehicles. You are predominantly tied to Dealer networks who are more into replacing rather than repairing. Replacing a whole battery rather than replacing a damaged cell or coolant system and this is down to manufacturers not releasing the information or making parts available. It may change with pressure from consumers or Insurance/Repair companies.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Lots of EV’s have radar fitted so will hit the brakes before the driver should a muppet step out without looking.

That's not specific to EVs though. Most higher-priced ICE cars have had radar collision avoidance systems for years (had it on our 2012 Volvo, for example).

 

[Velma's Dad]

The main problem seems with 2nd hand vehicles. You are predominantly tied to Dealer networks who are more into replacing rather than repairing. Replacing a whole battery rather than replacing a damaged cell or coolant system and this is down to manufacturers not releasing the information or making parts available. It may change with pressure from consumers or Insurance/Repair companies.

The whole business/economic model is shifting anyway, from ownership to various types of leasing. Although EVs are particularly well aligned to that model, it's been trending that way in any case as cars become increasingly about software (about 40% of the typical added value of today's cars, I think I remember reading recently) and modularised mechanicals.

The question then, as you say, is what happens to vehicles (whether EV or hybrid or ICE) after their first 'ownership' phase, ie do they get scrapped/recycled because no-one would want to take on the liabilities of maintenance during the later life-stages of the vehicle.

But that's been the case for a long time with many upscale car brands/models - hence you can pick up a big BMW or Maseratis etc for peanuts if you're brave enough, but even a failed ancillary component can hit you with a massive bill and anyway the vehicles are so complex that almost no-one would think about trying to take one to bits. EV's pose some particular issues, around the battery of course, but the days of being able to get any kind of modern vehicle repaired by a bloke in a shed down the road are almost completely past now, regardless of what powers it.

 

[Corradobrit]

The main problem seems with 2nd hand vehicles. You are predominantly tied to Dealer networks who are more into replacing rather than repairing. Replacing a whole battery rather than replacing a damaged cell or coolant system and this is down to manufacturers not releasing the information or making parts available. It may change with pressure from consumers or Insurance/Repair companies.

EV owners are lawyer'ing up. The Right to Repair Law is designed to facilitate repairs rather than more lucrative replacement repair strategies. Manufacturers may have no choice although I'm sure they are ready with the safety arguments.

Tesla Is Facing Two Class Action Lawsuits Over Right-to-Repair

Elon Musks' EV company is being sued for alleged antitrust violations because the plaintiffs claim it's too difficult to repair a Tesla at an independent shop.

gizmodo.com

 

[Wildcamper]

https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/synthetic-fuels-an-environmental-game-changer?format=amp. There is some neat chemistry here but I do wonder about the overall commercial viability. It is dead easy to make something horrendously expensive, even if it is an excellent product. The challenge has to be making an acceptable product at an affordable price.

 

[Velma's Dad]

https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/synthetic-fuels-an-environmental-game-changer?format=amp. There is some neat chemistry here but I do wonder about the overall commercial viability. It is dead easy to make something horrendously expensive, even if it is an excellent product. The challenge has to be making an acceptable product at an affordable price.

I'd love this to be a practical proposition (I'm addicted to classic motorsport) and it's been trumpeted as a holy grail for sustainable aviation. The seductive attraction is the use of CO2 as a feedstock, alongside 'green' hydrogen generated using sustainably generated electricity (eg from wind or solar). Sounds great.

But in energy terms that's a pretty inefficient way to achieve propulsion for vehicles. The Royal Society reckons that around five times more sustainable electricity would need to be consumed to make the synthetic fuel to move a vehicle, than is needed to move the same vehicle using an electric motor. So until there's an over-abundance of green electricity available, it would make little sense to use it to make efuels for everyday cars, rather than reserving for uses that are otherwise harder to decarbonise - especially heating of homes and businesses.

It may of course still make sense to use efuels for certain heavy transport applications not suitable for EVs, such as HGVs, and of course for aviation which has been the proposed main use-case for development of sustainable fuels. But in all those cases the economic costs will certainly be the main obstacle in the medium term.

 

[2into1]

Whichever electric car you buy, don't skip your payment!

 

[Corradobrit]

Whichever electric car you buy, don't skip your payment!
View attachment 106895

Sounds fair. When you lease you don't actually own anything. Lets hope the thieving elements of society never get access.

 

[willwander]

I'd love this to be a practical proposition (I'm addicted to classic motorsport) and it's been trumpeted as a holy grail for sustainable aviation. The seductive attraction is the use of CO2 as a feedstock, alongside 'green' hydrogen generated using sustainably generated electricity (eg from wind or solar). Sounds great.

But in energy terms that's a pretty inefficient way to achieve propulsion for vehicles. The Royal Society reckons that around five times more sustainable electricity would need to be consumed to make the synthetic fuel to move a vehicle, than is needed to move the same vehicle using an electric motor. So until there's an over-abundance of green electricity available, it would make little sense to use it to make efuels for everyday cars, rather than reserving for uses that are otherwise harder to decarbonise - especially heating of homes and businesses.

It may of course still make sense to use efuels for certain heavy transport applications not suitable for EVs, such as HGVs, and of course for aviation which has been the proposed main use-case for development of sustainable fuels. But in all those cases the economic costs will certainly be the main obstacle in the medium term.

Green Hydrogen is just a really inefficient battery.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Green Hydrogen is just a really inefficient battery.

Yep, and then converting that green hydrogen into synthetic hydrocarbons (using Fischer-Tropsch process, per the Adam Smith article above) is an even more inefficient battery.

 

[Amarillo]

I'd love this to be a practical proposition (I'm addicted to classic motorsport) and it's been trumpeted as a holy grail for sustainable aviation. The seductive attraction is the use of CO2 as a feedstock, alongside 'green' hydrogen generated using sustainably generated electricity (eg from wind or solar). Sounds great.

But in energy terms that's a pretty inefficient way to achieve propulsion for vehicles. The Royal Society reckons that around five times more sustainable electricity would need to be consumed to make the synthetic fuel to move a vehicle, than is needed to move the same vehicle using an electric motor. So until there's an over-abundance of green electricity available, it would make little sense to use it to make efuels for everyday cars, rather than reserving for uses that are otherwise harder to decarbonise - especially heating of homes and businesses.

It may of course still make sense to use efuels for certain heavy transport applications not suitable for EVs, such as HGVs, and of course for aviation which has been the proposed main use-case for development of sustainable fuels. But in all those cases the economic costs will certainly be the main obstacle in the medium term.

I’m more optimistic than that.

I can see a time when wind, even on a fairly calm day, produces most of Britain’s electricity needs. This would give plenty of surplus electricity to bubble up hydrogen on windy days or periods of low energy use. And offshore wind farms are in an ideal location to produce hydrogen. It just needs to be piped to shore for compression into liquid form.

 

[westfalia]

They're back engineering some tic tac UFO's in the US of Amnesia.
Once they've put the pieces together, we're sorted.
Imagine when the T10 Cali arrives, warp speed travel and capable
of spinning on a sixpence.

 

[Wildcamper]

Maybe the future could be hydrogen. When considering green H2 production most think of it via electrolysis of water using PV electricity. There is another way, the photocatalytic generation of H2 directly from sunlight in the presence of a photocatalyst. This is not new and has been worked in for decades. It's downside is that it is, not yet, very efficient and relies on UV light which only makes up about 4% of sunlight. In most cases the catalyst used is forms of doped titanium dioxide. In essence pass water over the catalyst shine light on the system and get H2. The attached review gives more information but I would like to have seen it published in something like the Journal of Catalysis or the like. There is still some way to go however.

Recent progress in TiO2-based photocatalysts for hydrogen evolution reaction: A review

TiO2 has gained tremendous attention as a cutting-edge material for application in photocatalysis. The performance of TiO2 as a photocatalyst depends …

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Wildcamper]

I’m glad you’ve bought an electric vehicle. But your conscience isn’t clean | Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars | The Guardian

First, you’ve got to drive a long way before you overcome your EV’s embedded carbon debt. And then there’s the trouble with the minerals in its battery…

amp.theguardian.com

 

[johnyboy]

Tesla doubles down on ethical sourcing with cobalt mining risk analysis

Tesla has published a new report on its efforts to make its cobalt supply chain significantly more ethical, safe, and secure.

www.teslarati.com

 

[Wildcamper]

The electric vehicle dream has turned into a nightmare

From rocketing electricity prices to absent chargers by way of bridge-rattling weight, the problems are mounting

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[SusiBus]

Just been past the car parks at Brent Cross on the North Circular, London. Even more Teslas parked up since we last passed by on the Greenline Coach. Don't think there can be a waiting list at the moment.

 

[clarinetbcn]

And being hit by one. Personal liability will likewise increase to cover claims from pedestrians and their families who are hit by these silent assassins.

In Spain EVs, including public transport (most of the local busses are electric) are required to have sound projection at low speeds (higher speed tire noise makes this redundant.) It usually sounds like something out of science fiction, entertaining and effective. I think it’s an EU rule, so you may not have it in the UK?

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

In Spain EVs, including public transport (most of the local busses are electric) are required to have sound projection at low speeds (higher speed tire noise makes this redundant.) It usually sounds like something out of science fiction, entertaining and effective. I think it’s an EU rule, so you may not have it in the UK?

Suspect each manufacturer will have a signature ‘jingle’ played at low speeds. Brian Eno is probably busy composing as we speak