Which electric car to buy?

Sorry, after the first twelve minutes of introductions, bigging themselves up and not a single one of the much heralded facts, I lost interest.

Went over to watching this instead:

It does get better, if you really want to hear popular myths dismantled.

Personally I prefer to listen to my own arguments as an EV owner. They are expensive to buy, still too committed to China and the charging infrastructure is a joke, a complete joke. Other than that it is all positives but no matter how good the car, how wonderful the drive and how electrifying the performance if you can't put fuel in it then it is useless.
 
It would seem that insurance could be the next stumbling block.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs#:~:text=Its%20figures%2C%20derived%20from%20quotes,the%20figure%20to%20£848.
 
It does get better, if you really want to hear popular myths dismantled.

Personally I prefer to listen to my own arguments as an EV owner. They are expensive to buy, still too committed to China and the charging infrastructure is a joke, a complete joke. Other than that it is all positives but no matter how good the car, how wonderful the drive and how electrifying the performance if you can't put fuel in it then it is useless.
Hi Jen
Can I ask how you use and charge yours? So we got a 5 yr old i3 Rex with a 130 electric range and do about 100 miles a week. I plug it in to a 3 pin plug every Friday night.
How many miles a week do you do? How often do you charge away from home. I’m just curious. You have a Seat, is that correct?

Our plan is to hardly never have to charge apart from on our drive.
 
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Hi Jen
Can I ask how you use and charge yours? So got a 5 yr old i3 Rex with a 130 electric range and do about 100 miles a week. I plug it in to a 3 pin plug every Friday night.
How many miles a week do you do? How often do you charge away from home. I’m just curious. You have a Seat, is that correct?

Our plan is to hardly never have to charge apart from inn our drive.

I have a 57KwH Cupra Born, which is a lovely car to drive and very pleased with it.

I also have solar panels on my roof which even in the winter months will generate more energy than needed when the sun is out.

so, in answer to your question, I charge up at home, using a standard 3 pin, whenever the sun's out.

In just over a year of ownership the vehicle has travelled 4,000 miles. The only charge from external source that I have paid for was £10. I had a round trip of 180 miles with an overnight stop at a hotel with two EV chargers in the car park. As it was in the depths of winter (19th December) I put £10 in as a precaution. It proved to be an unnecessary one as my range, at that time, was over 200 miles.

My philosophy when buying it was to use excess production from my solar panels to fuel it up. If I was travelling the sort of distance where an en-route charge would be necessary then in all likelihood I would be in the camper anyway. This has proved to be the case. As I deduct the cost of my solar panels from total household energy saved I can claim that the fuel cost of those 4,000 miles has been £10. Even without solar panels it would still have been a cheap car to run and always with the comfort that I can go to bed at night and have a "full tank" tomorrow so if any silly buggar, from" just stop oil" to Putin, were to disrupt supplies then I would still be mobile.

For me I can say I am very pleased with the investment. If I had to rely on the national charging infrastructure then I might be less happy. As for charging speed from a standard domestic 3 pin, I fill at the rate of around 2.5 KwH so I can go from dead flat to 100% charged in around 20 hours, which will for most months give me in excess of 200 miles range. However, in practice, unless I see a particularly long journey coming up, I keep it in the range of 20% - 80% charged.

As a "living with it" example, as I just finished typing the above, I have checked using the app on my phone, noticed that battery is at 73% with indicated range being 127 miles and as the sun is just breaking through the clouds I've told the car to start refuelling, all whilst typing this last paragraph. It can't be any more convenient than that.
 
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Totally agree, owned a EV for two years with no real problems. Yes the charging infrastructure is poor, but only when not charging from home. The car's been totally reliable and considerably cheaper to run than my other vehicle (Suzuki Swift).
Don't understand the negativity around EV's
but experienced similar when I purchased a Toyota Prius in 2005, all ill-founded covered 100.000 miles with the only issue being a blown fuse to the drivers door mirror .
The challenge is to UK manufacturer, unfortunately we tend to lead the way in moaning and struggle with the making!
I suspect that may not happen, and the Chinese will follow the Japanese model of the 70/80's and gain market share by offering better product at cheaper prices, sadly its all so predictable.
 
It does get better, if you really want to hear popular myths dismantled.

Personally I prefer to listen to my own arguments as an EV owner. They are expensive to buy, still too committed to China and the charging infrastructure is a joke, a complete joke. Other than that it is all positives but no matter how good the car, how wonderful the drive and how electrifying the performance if you can't put fuel in it then it is useless.
Well after despatching our guests, I did as suggested and watched the rest of the video last night and subsequently offer the following observation:

The panelists were clearly preaching to a room consisting almost entirely of BEV disciples, which is fine if the idea was to discuss the merits of BEV adoption and dispel some of the negative criticisms that BEVs have attracted. But lets be clear, there remains in the minds of many, serious negative drawbacks with BEV adoption, some unfounded, some not. One or two of these major concerns were rather swiftly glossed over by the team e.g will the national grid be able to cope? (Please excuse me as this was probably not how the question was phrased but I'm not re watching it again to check). Anyway, whilst their response was an emphatic yes, only time will tell if their opinion turns out to be correct or not. Indeed, whilst some of the many critisisms of BEVs were highlighted, and some plausible responses given, just how many of their responses were actual fact, remains debateable as only the pro BEV lobby's opinion was aired.

As an ordinary member of the Joe Public without the specialist knowledge of the specific issues discussed, I try to keep an open mind on the whole BEV debate. I have no doubt that they are more efficient than Ice vehicles and represent a step forward in that particular form of motive power. As to whether BEVs will or even should form the basis for the whole of our personal transport needs in the future, I remain highly sceptical. In my mind they form only part of the answer.

So, do I feel educated? Well no not particularly. I have listened to the comments, some of which I found very interesting, but as always there is often a fine line between education and indoctrination. Consequently, as the many issues thrown up by the wide spread roll out of BEVs begin to become clearer, my policy is to sit tight and wait and see. Despite what these people say, some of the concerns will melt away and some will become acute.

Our last guests have just left this morning in their Nissan Leaf. They live in Wales so will need to stop several times to recharge. When they left, it was in the opposite direction towards Dover. When asked why that direction? The reply was to recharge at the nearest available charger thirteen miles in the wrong direction!
 
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Our last guests have just left this morning in their Nissan Leaf. They live in Wales so will need to stop several times to recharge. When they left, it was in the opposite direction towards Dover. When asked why that direction? The reply was to recharge at the nearest available charger thirteen miles in the wrong direction!

Why did they not charge up at your place? Easy to work out how much they owe you?
 
I have a 57KwH Cupra Born, which is a lovely car to drive and very pleased with it.

I also have solar panels on my roof which even in the winter months will generate more energy than needed when the sun is out.

so, in answer to your question, I charge up at home, using a standard 3 pin, whenever the sun's out.

In just over a year of ownership the vehicle has travelled 4,000 miles. The only charge from external source that I have paid for was £10. I had a round trip of 180 miles with an overnight stop at a hotel with two EV chargers in the car park. As it was in the depths of winter (19th December) I put £10 in as a precaution. It proved to be an unnecessary one as my range, at that time, was over 200 miles.

My philosophy when buying it was to use excess production from my solar panels to fuel it up. If I was travelling the sort of distance where an en-route charge would be necessary then in all likelihood I would be in the camper anyway. This has proved to be the case. As I deduct the cost of my solar panels from total household energy saved I can claim that the fuel cost of those 4,000 miles has been £10. Even without solar panels it would still have been a cheap car to run and always with the comfort that I can go to bed at night and have a "full tank" tomorrow so if any silly buggar, from" just stop oil" to Putin, were to disrupt supplies then I would still be mobile.

For me I can say I am very pleased with the investment. If I had to rely on the national charging infrastructure then I might be less happy. As for charging speed from a standard domestic 3 pin, I fill at the rate of around 2.5 KwH so I can go from dead flat to 100% charged in around 20 hours, which will for most months give me in excess of 200 miles range. However, in practice, unless I see a particularly long journey coming up, I keep it in the range of 20% - 80% charged.

As a "living with it" example, as I just finished typing the above, I have checked using the app on my phone, noticed that battery is at 73% with indicated range being 127 miles and as the sun is just breaking through the clouds I've told the car to start refuelling, all whilst typing this last paragraph. It can't be any more convenient than that.
Thanks for that. Sounds like your mileage is similar to us and obviously having a Cali helps.

I quite like filling up to 100% (about 14hrs) but I should also probably just relax into 80% as that would still get me about 100miles with our 33kWh. I have finally got a smart meter appointment for next month so will then be able to pay just 7.5pence/kWh but only between 23.30-5.30. That will probably be about 40 or 50% so I will plug it in Thursdays and Friday evenings.

I'm currently paying £1.86 for a commute that used cost me £10 petrol (or coincidentally £10 on the train) but when the meter is in that should drop to 49 pence for my 24 miles.

For me buying a used BEV was a bit of a punt but £12k to swap from a 15yr old Golf to a 5yr old i3 seemed a good idea. Road tax was down £100, insurance up £100, but with the £1,800 a year fuel savings and hopefully some servicing savings, it should pay for itself in 6 years or so.

Very jealous of your solar panels.
 
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May help if they download Zap Map and plan accordingly using ev route planner.
Nissan Leaf wouldn't be my choice if range was a priority, due to be deleted and replaced with an all new platform.
 
I've owned 2 EV's a Mini EV which had an horrendous range of around 100 miles in the winter so I lost around £12k on that when I part ex'd it for a Volvo XC40, I'm also on the waiting list for the EV Spectre when it's launched next year.
My view is they make sense if buying through a company new and are a second or third car. Perfect if charging from home but can be a nightmare if charging on the go as the infrastructure simply isn't there. ie I had a 4 hour wait at Warwick services as there is only 2 non Tesla chargers and the day I went only 1 was working with 2 cars queuing in front of me. I can't see this getting better anytime soon.
If you're buying secondhand I'd personally recommend buying around 2-3 years old as the depreciation on them is savage, due to a lack of appetite in buyers in the nearly new segment. You can get a Porsche Taycan at half the list price at 2 1/2 years old presently.....
 
So I had a chat with a mate of mine yesterday, who has just bought his second EV. Sorry not bought, leased which he runs through his business.
ID4 which he’s had for a year and a Nissan Leaf (3 months old) for the missis as the backup mule.

So far he’s more than satisfied and won’t be going back. Most of his charging is done from home and on a recent trip to Devon, from Warwickshire. Topped up the tank at an Insta-Volt charger. 25 minutes of charging cost £20 got him another 100 miles. Which was enough to get back home.

Apparently, he rates the Insta chargers and can be found at lots of McDonalds around the country.
 
I've owned 2 EV's a Mini EV which had an horrendous range of around 100 miles in the winter so I lost around £12k on that when I part ex'd it for a Volvo XC40, I'm also on the waiting list for the EV Spectre when it's launched next year.
My view is they make sense if buying through a company new and are a second or third car. Perfect if charging from home but can be a nightmare if charging on the go as the infrastructure simply isn't there. ie I had a 4 hour wait at Warwick services as there is only 2 non Tesla chargers and the day I went only 1 was working with 2 cars queuing in front of me. I can't see this getting better anytime soon.
If you're buying secondhand I'd personally recommend buying around 2-3 years old as the depreciation on them is savage, due to a lack of appetite in buyers in the nearly new segment. You can get a Porsche Taycan at half the list price at 2 1/2 years old presently.....

I think you are right. They make ideal city cars, but for longer range ICE is still better.

We have two cars. Our Cali, and a Skoda Citigo. The Citigo rarely strays outside the M25, so an electric car could easily replace it, even with a winter range of 20 to 30 miles.

I have seriously considered the Citroen Ami, even more attractive now TfL are reducing the speed on their urban single carriageway roads to 20mph, and dual carriageway within the GLA boundary to 40mph. (The Ami has a top speed of 28mph, max range 47miles and a full charge from any standard UK socket takes just 4 hours).
 
Nice to see a bit of balance in the last few posts, rather than the more usual it’s all sh** because the poster can’t see beyond their own myopic viewpoint. It’s not all good for every circumstance, neither is it all bad. We have done c.25k over the last 14 months or so in our Born and on the whole it has been utterly brilliant. Because we mostly charge at home on a really cheap tariff, it’s brilliant to drive and saves a fortunate over an ICE equivalent. That’s why we bought it, it is there to do the 80ish miles a day to/from work and the local kids run around. And it does go up country, but that is where it’s not so brilliant. It’s been charged away from home maybe 15-20 times, which is really expensive and increasingly frustrating to have to wait for a charger - and getting increasingly annoyed with the d**ks who think it’s ok to push in front - generalising but Porsche drivers take note. Infrastructure is way behind the drag curve.
But we would get another one in a heart beat - for the local stuff which it was bought for. But no way would we have an EV as the main car for the long range stuff. Horses for courses, one size doesn’t fit all. EVs are very much part of the solution - but any argument that dismisses their value based on them being the whole solution is flawed.
 
Electric modular vehicle with camper option and 4 wheel drive. Interesting.
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Why did they not charge up at your place? Easy to work out how much they owe you?
I did offer them a free but slow over night charge using an extension cable but they said they had just sold their connection lead due to their having had a super new charger fitted at home in Wales. Not much good up there I thought. I didn't dwell on their answer as it wasn't my problem.
 
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I am loving my i3 range extender. Am trying to get it down low before I charge it on Friday evenings. I suppose I’m treating it like my iPhone. Managed to get so low the Rex kicked in yesterday, literally 50 metres from home - that’s the little white triangle, supposed to turn on around 6.5% range left. I guess it kicked in early as I had lights and wipers on.
1697306914314.jpeg
Still averaging 4 miles per kWh. Next month we finally get a smart meter and cheaper overnight leccy. Our 8p per mile will then become 2p per mile. My Golf was 45ppm!
 
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https://12ft.io/ is your friend....

Interesting article to ensure we ignore current ways of reducing our output and keep buying oil ....

Every few years a disruptive technology comes out of left field and entirely changes the future of the global energy system, smashing into our consciousness like a thunderclap.
It happened with shale fracking around 2009-2011, confounding OPEC, Russia, and an opinion establishment still hooked on the great red herring of peak oil.
America went from an alarming energy deficit to become the top exporter of oil and gas within a decade. The dollar came roaring back. So did American power.
Today’s exuberant rush for “white” hydrogen has the same feel.
We are suddenly waking up to the very real possibility that vast reserves of natural hydrogen lie under our feet and can plausibly be extracted at costs that blow away the competition, ultimately undercutting methane on pure price.
Scientists have long argued that pockets of exploitable geological hydrogen are more abundant than hitherto supposed.
The perpetual burning gas at Chimaera in Turkey – believed to be the source of the Olympic flame – has a hydrogen content reaching 11.3pc. There is another such marvel at Los Fuegos Eternos in the Philippines.

It has been known since 2012 that hydrogen beneath the village of Bourakébougou in Mali has 98pc purity. The site was discovered in the 1980s when it blew up in the face of a local man smoking a cigarette while drilling for water.
Professor Alain Prinzhofer from the Institute of Physics in Paris found that the gas flow remained constant over time – the pressure even rose – confirming a hypothesis that hydrogen can keep renewing itself by a chemical reaction underground.
What is new is that the world now needs that hydrogen and is acting on the insights.
The US Geological Survey concluded in April that there is probably enough accessible hydrogen in the earth’s subsurface to meet total global demand for “hundreds of years”.
The US Energy Department is drawing up plans to help kick start the industry, deeming the potential “astronomical”.
Viacheslav Zgonnik, a Ukrainian geologist, thinks white geologic hydrogen could be so cheap and abundant that it conquers the energy market.
“We think that we can reach $1 a kilo in the long-run and provide baseload power 24/7. It can be compressed for storage in steel tanks. It is not that expensive,” he said.
If so, that raises awkward questions about the eye-watering subsidies going into green variants (from electrolysis) and blue variants (natural gas with carbon capture).
Green hydrogen costs $3 to $4 today. It will become cheaper with scale, but getting much below $2 will be hard: you currently lose 70pc of the original energy in the making, and it requires a massive electrolyser industry that does not yet exist.
Are the EU, the UK, Japan, and others, barking up the wrong tree with their hydrogen strategies?
And is the vogue for drilling bans in Europe an ecological own-goal? Hydrogen wells use much the same drill kit as the oil and gas industry, with some need for modification since hydrogen degrades metal piping, and the tiny molecule leaks easily.
“We can get to scale faster than with green hydrogen and without using up the land surface that you need for renewables.
“It makes much more sense to leverage up the potential of natural hydrogen. But if you look at the grants, they are all going to green hydrogen projects. That needs correcting rapidly,” he said.
Today’s wildcat drilling for hydrogen is very like the early days of fracking in Texas and Pennsylvania.
In May, Française De l’Énergie and researchers from GeoRessources made Europe’s biggest discovery to date, finding 15pc hydrogen content at a depth of 1,100 metres.

Europe's biggest natural hydrogen discovery was made in the Lorraine Mining Basin in France
It is not contaminated by corrosive gases and can be separated easily. The next step is to drill to 3,000 metres, where the purity is expected to reach 90pc.
Hydrogen is produced in vast quantities from a constant chemical process in the earth’s crust and mantle, but is also made in pockets where water reacts with iron-rich minerals.
It works its way upward, mostly eaten by bacteria along the way, or turning into long chain hydrocarbons when it bumps into fossil deposits. Scientists had assumed that little survived the journey. Geologists are now proving that they were wrong.
Gold Hydrogen has hit accumulations with 80pc content at 500 metres in the Yorke Peninsula of South Australia, the frontrunner of the global hydrogen rush.
Australia has already created the world’s most advanced regulatory and permitting structure. Natural Hydrogen Energy, co-founded by Dr Zgonnik, is drilling in Nebraska. China has begun exploration in Inner Mongolia.
“We never found much hydrogen before because we weren’t looking for it,” said Professor Jon Gluyas, a world expert on natural hydrogen at Durham University. Mass spectrometers and sensors were not set to detect it in normal drilling.
“It’s a colourless, odourless gas, so it is not easy to spot. You are not going to find it with oil because the hydrogen bubbling up from below reacts with it,” he said.
The one place where they did try to detect hydrogen was the old Soviet Union because of a (false) hypothesis that it was a geological marker for oil and gas deposits.
They discovered it in rich volumes across much of the country. That is the likely template for the rest of the world.
The big oil and gas drillers are watching from the sidelines, just as they did at the start of fracking. “Investors want to see the first demonstration that you can drill for hydrogen on purpose rather than finding it by accident,” said Dr Zgonnik.
The critical breakthrough will probably happen somewhere within a year or two.

South Australia has emerged as the frontrunner in the global hydrogen race
Whether it then takes off at scale comes down to costs. Will it really be as cheap – or cheaper – to drill for hydrogen as for methane, and will the purity be high enough? “Most people think 10pc is probably the cut-off,” he said.
The trade-off on costs is much like geothermal energy. You have to find the sweet spot where the yield is enough to justify drilling, but not so deep that drilling expenses run wild. The limit is probably near 3,000 metres.
Hydrogen has a little understood and incalculable advantage over fossil fuels.
“The bore hole can theoretically produce for ever, just like geothermal. You don’t have to keep redrilling, and you don’t have the decline curve of oil and gas. That changes the economics of the project drastically,” Dr Zgonnik said.
Prof Gluyas thinks natural hydrogen will quickly displace dirty grey hydrogen (3pc of global CO2 emissions) used in refining and the chemical industry, mostly from natural gas made by steam reforming, which doubles the cost. “It’s going to be much cheaper,” he said.
Future uses will then go down the “hydrogen ladder”, replacing fossil feedstock in fertilisers, steel, cement, back-up power for renewables, shipping and jet fuel, depending on the carbon price.
“Nobody has yet made a commercial discovery ready for the market. As soon as one happens, there is going to be absolute frenzy,” he said.
The next net zero billionaires might well be gas explorers drilling holes in the ground. The surprises never cease.
And continuing this theme. The biggest deposits of white hydrogen found so far discovered in NE France
 
Nice to see a bit of balance in the last few posts, rather than the more usual it’s all sh** because the poster can’t see beyond their own myopic viewpoint. It’s not all good for every circumstance, neither is it all bad. We have done c.25k over the last 14 months or so in our Born and on the whole it has been utterly brilliant. Because we mostly charge at home on a really cheap tariff, it’s brilliant to drive and saves a fortunate over an ICE equivalent. That’s why we bought it, it is there to do the 80ish miles a day to/from work and the local kids run around. And it does go up country, but that is where it’s not so brilliant. It’s been charged away from home maybe 15-20 times, which is really expensive and increasingly frustrating to have to wait for a charger - and getting increasingly annoyed with the d**ks who think it’s ok to push in front - generalising but Porsche drivers take note. Infrastructure is way behind the drag curve.
But we would get another one in a heart beat - for the local stuff which it was bought for. But no way would we have an EV as the main car for the long range stuff. Horses for courses, one size doesn’t fit all. EVs are very much part of the solution - but any argument that dismisses their value based on them being the whole solution is flawed.
My EVs are fine with long range stuff. I can drive 200-250 miles before needing to charge. It takes 30 minutes on a fast charger before I can do the same range again, whilst I have a break that I’d be having anyway. I don’t see how this is inconvenient or any kind of blocker. Lack of charger availability is an issue in some places just like a lack of petrol stations would be, but the concept is perfectly sound. I think the cost of EVs is the biggest hurdle. If they cost the same as ICE cars then they’re a no brainer to have because at 2p/mile everyone would save a fortune. Most people will go with what’s cheapest.
 
I have an EV with an official range of 258, realistically I cannot get more than 230 irrespective of how I drive. Overall I do like this car, but there are compromises, as already alluded to they are significantly more expensive than their ICE equivalents and the depreciation is much harsher so that has to be factored into running costs. I agree 30 mins wait is perfectly doable, however that's on the assumption you're finding one free, at least half the time I've used them I've had to wait behind 1 or 2 others which pushes your waiting/charge time to hours which is a big bugbear of mine. Also if you're using superfast chargers they're often more expensive than the cost of petrol!
Whilst headline rates of 2-3p per mile when home charging are quoted, you have to remember that's only with a dual fuel tariff which means any electricity you use during the day for other domestic purposes is much more expensive than a standard tariff.
Whilst I like my EV, if I had to chose between that or my ICE vehicles I'd choose the latter at the moment.
 
I have an EV with an official range of 258, realistically I cannot get more than 230 irrespective of how I drive. Overall I do like this car, but there are compromises, as already alluded to they are significantly more expensive than their ICE equivalents and the depreciation is much harsher so that has to be factored into running costs. I agree 30 mins wait is perfectly doable, however that's on the assumption you're finding one free, at least half the time I've used them I've had to wait behind 1 or 2 others which pushes your waiting/charge time to hours which is a big bugbear of mine. Also if you're using superfast chargers they're often more expensive than the cost of petrol!
Whilst headline rates of 2-3p per mile when home charging are quoted, you have to remember that's only with a dual fuel tariff which means any electricity you use during the day for other domestic purposes is much more expensive than a standard tariff.
Whilst I like my EV, if I had to chose between that or my ICE vehicles I'd choose the latter at the moment.
On Intelligent Octopus the standard electric tariff is also cheaper than the price cap, so it’s not the case that the daytime rate is more expensive, it’s actually less expensive. And yes availability of chargers and cost of EVs are the 2 issues, but neither of those are the concept of EVs. They may be reasons for some not to go to an EV now, but if the price of EVs becomes more attractive and when the infrastructure improves many more people will buy into EVs. Right now it’s really only good value for salary sacrifice cars IMO.
 

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