Diesel witch hunt

[Cycle mad]

I have a 2014 Cali,DSG 7 speed auto4 wheel drive,how is polluting is the Diesel engine? I accept that being one of the modern engines it will be pretty good but are we going to be hit with city bans ,higher road tax,and what are/will be the regs when we are in European cities?
Any ideas??

 

[Velma's Dad]

It's a Euro 5 spec engine (as fitted AFAIK to all VW T5s since 2010) so I assume it's not going to be high up the list of vehicles likely to be banned from cities in the next few years. Longer term, who can say. Some cities are saying they will ban all diesels by 2025, but we can only guess if that will come about.

Once you have such a vehicle (as I do), as far as I can see there's little point in worrying about it. We can all blame various governments if we want, but it doesn't change what comes out of the exhaust. To be honest, if I live somewhere with chronic life-threatening air pollution, like Athens, I'd be wanting to ban diesels there myself.

Personally I intend to just get on with enjoying my Cali, which luckily for me I very rarely need to take into a city... I do realise others have fewer options if it's their main vehicle.

 

[Hotel California]

If you "search" there are sevral treads on this
One of them , started about Paris emission zone turned into 3 pages
https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/air-quality-certificate-for-france.17097/

 

[Niborn]

Ive got on order the same and been thinking about this too .

The critical thing from diesel engines, so far I have read apart from the absolute Co2 level which will be around 166 , is the NOx level , I believe the new Euro 6 engines output 80 ( old engines say 15 years ago were more like 700 or higher ) modern petrol engines are only marginally better at 60 . In the new VW engines you will have to , each 5000 miles or so , add ADBLUE , it's around 50p a litre , and this 3 gallons will fill the ADBLUE tank for around the 5000 miles . The ADBLUE captures the nasty cancer making Nox diesel particals making it conform with the EURO 6 level of 80 . In cities like Paris I understand you will get a coloured sticker which declares how bad your car is , Euro 6 I understand overall is now About as good as petrol . Hope this helps , best wishes

 

[Palm]

In Sweden politics discusses higher road taxes and a new formula is made for NEW cars. For example the road tax for a diesel car that emits 210 gram CO2 / km will the tax increase factor of approximately 3.
I see this as a tool to force the car industry to take action against CO2 and NOx pollutants and to force potential buyers to choose other engines with renewable fuel or electric cars. As retroactive taxing not is used here. Will we how have diesel cars today not suffer that much if they decides to go on. I can take City bans.

 

[knightons]

i'm intrigued by the fact that there is little to no mention of how polluting batteries are. From the extraction of the raw material to the inefficiency of the chemistry, to the lack of recycling and so on. My concern is what will happen when people transition to batteries and they start failing en-mass in 5+ years. I think that diesel may be polluting - especially due to particulate emissions - but current battery technology is not the answer... a bit like compact fluorescent lamps only being a step from incandescent technology to LED: Batteries are evidently not the answer and may ultimately cause more issues than currently imagined.

 

[T6 CFO]

Press and politicians like nothing better than a good headline or sound bite. In reality regulations will come in and these will help to push the more polluting vehicles off the road. I don't believe there will be a problem with most of the Cali's on this board.


Mike

 

[Velma's Dad]

The ADBLUE captures the nasty cancer making Nox diesel particals making it conform with the EURO 6 level of 80 .

Actually, it's slightly more complicated than that. Diesel exhaust contains both nitrogen dioxide (NOx) and particulate matter (PM - which is basically soot from diesel engines). They aren't one and the same problem. Each causes its own hazards to health.

I believe you are right in the sense that Adblue, as used as an additive to the diesel particulate filter (DPF), aims to reduce particulates. However the OP is talking about Euro 5 engines which don't have such an advanced design of DPF, and also emit a much higher level of NOx than Euro 6.

I'm no expert in diesel engine technology. But in case anyone else is interested, I found the emissions standards (in mg/km) for the various diesel generations:



It seems likely that policymakers will progressive regulate 'against' Euro 1-5 engines before eventually Euro 6/all diesels if they go that far.

 

[Bellcrew]

Actually, it's slightly more complicated than that. Diesel exhaust contains both nitrogen dioxide (NOx) and particulate matter (PM - which is basically soot from diesel engines). They aren't one and that same problem. Each causes its own hazards to health.

I believe you are right in the sense that Adblue, as used as an additive to the diesel particulate filter (DPF), aims to reduce particulates. However the OP is talking about Euro 5 engines which don't have such an advanced design of DPF, and also emit a much higher level of NOx than Euro 5.

I'm no expert in diesel engine technology. But in case anyone else is interested, I found the emissions standards (in mg/km) for the various diesel generations:

View attachment 20944

It seems likely that policymakers will progressive regulate 'against' Euro 1-5 engines before eventually Euro 6/all diesels if they go that far.

I suspect that no matter how clean diesel engines get the guilt tax merchants will want their pound of flesh.

 

[Meoncoast]

Well if all becomes a no go for your Cali , just follow your user name Cycle mad and go on your bike.
I always find odd that electric cars never seem to included the greenhouses gases in generating the electric they run on. Too many cows = too much methane so think we are all doomed.

 

[briwy]

Problem is that to meet the regs which keep getting more rigorous the engines get more and more complicated making it more expensive and more likley to go wrong/costly to fix.
EGRs, DPFs, AdBlue, etc
I'd definitley look at a petrol Cali next time if they are available.

 

[Grey one]

I have a 2014 Cali,DSG 7 speed auto4 wheel drive,how is polluting is the Diesel engine? I accept that being one of the modern engines it will be pretty good but are we going to be hit with city bans ,higher road tax,and what are/will be the regs when we are in European cities?
Any ideas??

Hi Cycle mad. I asked myself those questions before ordering my T6. Leaving aside the add blue issue the general questions are the same. I even spoke with diesel vehicle magazine journalists to seek their view! By way of summary, the precise future appears impossible to tell but my working conclusions were:

1. The future of diesel as a power plant for motorhomes and campers is more likely than for smaller cars. No doubt in many decades time all vehicles will be something other than diesel but it may take many years to resolve the issue with lighter vehicles let alone the heavier ones.

2. At the moment the issue of blame (for pollution) appears to be at a simplistic level in that it is aimed in the press towards the motorist and, in particular, diesel cars. When the debate is more mature we may hear more about buses, bin lorries and HGV etc. Once that happens there will be a more informed debate around what to do about the problem ie taxation, exclusion zones etc. At the moment we just seem to hear about taxes and scrappage schemes. All very simplistic arguments and discussions. IMO we we are way off deciding exactly what to do as we don't really know exactly what the total nature of the cause is let alone how councils, transport companies etc should 'pay'.

3. Exclusion zones won't effect my day to day use of the Cali as I can easily avoid the likely areas involved. If I really do want to go into one in a Cali I will pay or get the bus (providing it's not a diesel!).

4. Camping in a van seems less harmful to the environment than catching a long haul flight to sit in the sun.

My conclusion was, if I could afford a Cali and I wanted to use one as they are intended, it was not a particularly excessive or inappropriate way to spend money and time. In pure financial terms, by the time Governments sorts out the issues involved, my vehicle may well be a sought after classic in which I have had hundreds of days away. So I bought one. All just my opinions.

 

[aileron346]

I think no need to get twitched by the anti- diesel moves. We should all support them - no responsible government can ignore new evidence. I think the pro-diesel moves were right then - in order to reduce CO2 emissions, but the NO2 and particles have caused growing health problems in cities, so its right to regulate them now. In the future campers may be petrol, then electric.., then something else. None of us should take this personally as these changes occur. I've seen horrible pollution in still air in continental cities and Alpine valleys and it's surely right that some restrictions are used to lessen this.

 

[Max-Felix]

Diesel is already virtually finished in small cars, that is a fact having given way to small petrol turbos or hybrids. VW themselves recently announced complete abandonment of their planned 1.5 TD engine to have been the basis for the diesel option across numerous group city cars. They quoted something like 50% of engine costs on top for extra equipment to meet emission regs.

If a modern 1.4 petrol turbo can give 200hp without undue stress then diesel is just not needed anymore as long as they can get the torque up a bit.

 

[Grey one]

I think no need to get twitched by the anti- diesel moves. We should all support them - no responsible government can ignore new evidence. I think the pro-diesel moves were right then - in order to reduce CO2 emissions, but the NO2 and particles have caused growing health problems in cities, so its right to regulate them now. In the future campers may be petrol, then electric.., then something else. None of us should take this personally as these changes occur. I've seen horrible pollution in still air in continental cities and Alpine valleys and it's surely right that some restrictions are used to lessen this.

I would agree with the overall thrust of your comments but would suggedt there may be a future for diesel! If correct, the Nox and particulate figures for the add blue T6 shown earler in this thread appear outstanding. From a pollution perspective what on earth is wrong with the new range of diesel power plants? Is it not just older heavier diesels not all diesels?

 

[Digger]

It's a mad, mad world where politicians react and then there is madness(the press). It is true modern diesels are cleaner and produce less CO2 than petrol engines. Sadly that does not seem to matter.

 

[T6 CFO]

It's a mad, mad world where politicians react and then there is madness. It is true modern diesels are cleaner and produce less CO2 than petrol engines. Sadly that does not seem to matter.

As far as ill considered press or political comment I agree. I don't believe it will when the inevitable legislation is introduced. I haven't even attempted to look at the figures but I would not be in the least surprised that if you took out the 10 % worst polluting there would be a vast improvement. The issue is going to be whether or not the legislation is aimed at this 10% to reduce the problem or as a revenue raising scheme. Let's hope sanity prevails.


Mike

 

[Auberg-ine]

Just decided by the Brussels government: zero diesels allowed from 2030.

 

[Digger]

Just decided by the Brussels government: zero diesels allowed from 2030.

View attachment 33719

Two horses could easily pull a campervan so life could be extended. Pity we cannot use the wind from politicians as fuel.

 

[Hotel California]

Hamburg (Germany ) some area's NO diesels from tomorrow on 1/06/2018

 

[aileron346]

Nothing at all to worry about. The Brussels move is 12 years away and anyway, whats wrong with keeping diesels (including our vans) out of congested city centres... seems like a good idea to me. These bans always seem to be very threatening to some, but surely most of us can see that we have come to the end of unrestricted vehicle use with no regard for the public health consequences. It's pretty obvious that we are on a gradual path to predominantly renewable energy anyway...but in the meantime, taxation, bans, speed restrictions re just going to be a normal part of life. The rules and regs change as the scientific evidence on emissions (both climate change and directly on people's health) changes... it's not a conspiracy...it really isn't.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Just decided by the Brussels government: zero diesels allowed from 2030.

Hold on, what is your source for this? I've only seen the general assertions by Commissioner Bienkowska earlier this week, where she predicted that diesel cars will 'completely disappear in the future'.

Well I can predict that the sun will burn out some time in the future, but AFAIK at the moment there's no legislation for either that or for a Europe-wide diesel ban.

Or did I miss something else in the news??

 

[Auberg-ine]

Hold on, what is your source for this? I've only seen the general assertions by Commissioner Bienkowska earlier this week, where she predicted that diesel cars will 'completely disappear in the future'.

Well I can predict that the sun will burn out some time in the future, but AFAIK at the moment there's no legislation for either that or for a Europe-wide diesel ban.

Or did I miss something else in the news??

In fact I got it directly from a Brussels elderman at lunchtime, before they went to vote it in the afternoon. And this evening it got officially stated on National Television.
The Low Emission Area which bans the most polluting Euro 1 is activated as well here in the centre. By 2030 it will be the whole Brussels Region.
Hamburg is only two streets in fact, and Euro 6 is still allowed.

(What I also hear is that this voting is also conceived as an "announcement policy", aiming at stimulating the industries towards e-vehicles and more charging poles in the city, which indeed is still too slow here.)

https://www.lez.brussels/en/content/my-vehicle

 

[Velma's Dad]

Sorry Auberg-ine, I completely misunderstood and when you'd said 'Brussels' I thought you meant 'EU Commission', not Brussels city! Should have read your post more carefully.

However I'm sure we're going to see a string of northern European cities banning at least Euro 5 diesels. even if Euro 6s remain allowed for some years.

It will be interesting to see how practical/cost-effective retrofit upgrade kits for Euro 5 vehicles to achieve Euro 6 standards prove to be. There's bound to a big market for them, if they can get them to a sensible price point. It would certainly extend the useful life of a lot of T5 Calis (like ours), even though in our case we don't want to take ours into city centres.

 

[Auberg-ine]

Just found a nice article in this website https://www.lez.brussels/en/content/my-vehicle concerning the possible exemptions we could ask for, I suppose, joining our big white friends:

"The vehicles that are required to submit an exemption request are as follows:

• Motorhomes (as defined in the highway code – Category M SA): This therefore includes special-use vehicles falling within Category M, which are designed to be used for accommodation and whose living compartment contains the following facilities as a minimum: seats and a table, berths which can be created with or without seats, a kitchen area, storage areas. These facilities must be irremovable, but the table may be designed to be easily foldable."