Bristol propose to ban diesel vehicles by March 2021

[Lightning]

And so the arguments go on! I doubt there is any sensible human being that doesn't agree that the human race needs to deal with pollution that contributes so much to global warming and health issues. However many of the proposals local and national governments want to implement are so flawed. If you are cynical you may say that many of the schemes (such as that proposed by Bristol council) are really more about raising money than improving the environment. Its a convenient smoke screen to hide behind. Regarding Bristol's scheme, consider 2 of the important facts laid out in their 'Clean Air Zone FAQ Document':-
- they don't differentiate between different diesel engines (euro 6 vs 20 yr old diesels!!)
- a non-compliant commercial vehicle can enter the clean air zone if they pay a charge (private diesels don't pay a charge). Having paid that charge they can also enter the diesel ban zone (ALL private diesels are banned in this zone between 07.00 and 15.00 - regardless if its Euro 6 compliant! Petrol cars are exempt!). So what does that tell you - they don't mind if your diesel engine is spewing out black smoke in the diesel ban zone if you have paid the charge to enter the clean air zone!! So tough s**t on the asthmatic child so long as the council get its money!!!
If they were really serious about health and the environment ALL petrol and diesel vehicles would be banned for the diesel ban area, but we all know the difficulty of implementing that!!
One other thing - I will bet you my next years salary that the ANR cameras installed to 'catch' offenders will be strategically placed so as to be difficult to spot = more money for the council.
Yes, you guessed it - I am a cynic in this matter and always will be until I see that our authorities put the environment and health before making money!!!! Its just more 'rip-off' Britain.

According to the council, they have modelled their proposal and it meets the legal levels, in the shortest period, without disproportionately impacting low income families.
If it was just about money, they could simply implement a blanket congestion charge, as London have.
Have you read their FAQ?

 

[Dave Wickham]

have you?

 

[Lightning]

have you?

Yes. The link is above.

 

[clarinetbcn]

have you?

Your comment makes no contribution to the discussion, wastes the time of forum members.

 

[Joker 1299]

Your comment makes no contribution to the discussion, wastes the time of forum members.

How so?

 

[Dave Wickham]

Perhaps the definition of a forum is appropriate here:-
'a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged'.
Just because you disagree with other opinions is not reason to say a comment makes no contribution to a discussion!!! Please remember we live in a democracy (I think) where one is allowed to express an opinion so long as its not offensive in its language. If you feel these posts waste your time don't get involved!!

 

[GrannyJen]

All comments, providing they respect the views of others, are welcome.

 

[clarinetbcn]

have you?

So, you feel it's ok to be short and discourteous to @Lightning, who's views deserve respect even if you don't agree with them, and then complain when you erroneously think you've gotten a little of the same. I didn't disagree with your comment. There was nothing to disagree with. There was no content. I sincerely believe that this forum's great purpose is for members to use this space to share knowledge and experience for the benefit of others. Rereading your above comment in the context of what @Lightning had just posted shows that that was not the case.

 

[Lightning]

Perhaps the definition of a forum is appropriate here:-
'a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged'.
Just because you disagree with other opinions is not reason to say a comment makes no contribution to a discussion!!! Please remember we live in a democracy (I think) where one is allowed to express an opinion so long as its not offensive in its language. If you feel these posts waste your time don't get involved!!

If somebody challenges your opinion, using available evidence, as they are entitled to do, you are entitled to defend your view. I’m a bit puzzled about how you think your response added anything to this ‘exchange of ideas’.

 

[Dave Wickham]

You miss the point entirely....

 

[Lightning]

You miss the point entirely....

Ok, well, have a lovely day!

 

[T6 CFO]

Taken from a story in the Telegraph
News

Bristol will ban all diesel vehicles from city under new proposal

Bristol could become the UK's first city to introduce a ban on diesel vehicles to boost air quality.

The vehicles will be prohibited from entering a central area of the city between 7am and 3pm every day under proposals by Bristol City Council.

A wider charging zone for commercial vehicles such as buses, taxis, vans and lorries which do not meet certain emissions standards is part of the measures which could be implemented by March 2021.

There is also a plan to launch a car scrappage scheme to help diesel car owners buy an alternative vehicle.

Concerns over emissions of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) have grown since Volkswagen was found in September 2015 to have cheated air pollution tests for 11 million diesel vehicles worldwide, including 1.2 million in the UK.

Bristol City Council said in 2017 it was one of 24 local authorities ordered by the Government to submit a plan for how it will comply with legal limits on NO2 by March 2021.

The Government has urged councils to exhaust other options before opting to impose charging zones.

Mayor of Bristol Marvin Rees said: "These ambitious plans demonstrate our commitment to tackling air pollution so we meet legal limits within the shortest time, without disproportionally affecting citizens on lower incomes which would happen with a blanket approach to charging vehicles.

"Protecting the most vulnerable people from pollution is central to these plans and we have ensured that all impacts have been carefully considered.

"If approved, mitigation measures will support those most affected, especially those living in the most deprived communities."

The council's cabinet is being asked to approve the Clean Air Zone proposal at a meeting on November 5.

If the plan is passed, the council would then work on developing the scheme with the Joint Air Quality Unit established by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department for Transport.

RAC head of roads policy Nicholas Lyes said: "We recognise that efforts must be made to clean up the city's air but as things stand, the impact of the proposals published today on people who currently drive diesel vehicles would be unprecedented.

"Major routes into, out of, and even around the city - like Temple Way and Brunel Way - would become out of bounds, with diesel vehicles forced on to other roads, which risks causing congestion problems where they don't exist at the moment."

Lawyer Katie Nield, of green legal group ClientEarth, said: "Bristol City Council is finally responding to residents' pollution worries and looking to strengthen its proposals, but while these new plans represent a step in the right direction, they once again stop short of ridding the city of its illegally toxic air with the necessary urgency."

Data published by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders shows that during the first nine months of the year diesels held just 25.8% of the new car market, compared with 31.7% during the same period in 2018.

This is due to increases in the proportion of motorists buying petrol and alternatively-fuelled vehicles such as hybrids and battery electrics.

An update to this thread from our local councillor.


The Mayor was previously planning (after missing several deadlines) a large CAZ C charging zone, and a small diesel car ban in the city centre. The Government had already said it wasn't sure if it would allow the diesel ban. However, Covid has changed everything, and now the Council believes that if traffic continues in the way that it currently is, along with the rapid implementation of Street Scene initiatives, then we may not need a charging CAZ at all. However, if a CAZ is needed, the Council now believes that this would be a *small* CAZ D zone in place of the diesel ban. CAZ D means it would affect all vehicles.

I and the Bristol Lib Dems welcome this development. We had voiced concerns about the diesel ban's impact on many residents, and the possibility to "lock in" the traffic changes due to Covid open a new option. We welcome a different approach that we believe should seek to deliver sustainable assurance of Clean Air instead of a banned 'zone' that would displace the problem of unhealthy air quality rather than solving it. We call on the Mayor to assess any changes for their impact on the communities across Bristol - especially the disabled, who will be unduly affected by any changes - as public transport can be less accessible.


Mike

 

[aileron346]

Not from Bristol, but I cant help feeling that this sort of watering down is a fudge. Knowing what we now do about diesel emissions, their impact on human health, the impact of urban air pollution on susceptibility to respiratory (including Covid-19) and cardiac disease, I'm sure a lot of diesel vehicle owners would accept sensible restrictions. I certainly don't mind keeping my Cali out of city centres if people's health is affected.

I suspect the councillor is wrong about the displacement issue because it is usually about the concentration of pollutants and their proximity to large numbers of people - hence city centres. Reasonable restriction on diesels are no significant threat to lifestyles and sensible change will come gradually. I'm surprised that Lib Dems are not fully behind a small diesel ban proposal.

 

[wilburthewombat]

I'm all for it, even though I have a nasty VW diesel cheaty engined Cali on order. It was a tough choice getting a campervan because I had sworn never to get another internal combustion engined vehicle. But the alternative to spending some quality years campervan travelling in my retirement was lots of flights and car-hire, or sitting watching telly. I have no intention of taking my Cali into city centres. I have an e-bike that will sit in the boot for just that purpose. In 5 or 10 years time there will be hydrogen engine powered campervans, maybe even Calis. But I can't wait for that.

 

[T6 CFO]

The Latest

Consultation on new Clean Air Zone

In the light of Covid and changes to commuting patterns, the previous plans for a Clean Air Zone have been ditched. The Council is now consulting on two new options:

* 2020 Option 1: a Clean Air Zone covering a small area of central Bristol in which non-compliant (older, more polluting) types of HGVs, buses, coaches, LGVs, taxis and private cars would be charged to drive in the zone. This is referred to as a small CAZ D and has the same boundary as the ditched "diesel ban" zone.
* 2020 Option 2: a small CAZ D, but also surrounded by a larger charging zone (referred to as a medium CAZ C). Vehicles would be charged to drive into the CAZ D in the same way as in Option 1. In the surrounding CAZ C, older, more polluting types of HGVs, buses, coaches, LGVs, taxis BUT NOT private cars would be charged to drive into the zone.

The consultation runs until 22 November, and you can respond to it here: www.bristol.gov.uk/caz2020

I think this development is very positive. The previously proposed "Diesel ban" was a very blunt measure that was going to cause lots of pain to people who live centrally and own new-ish diesel cars. Of the new options, Option 2 will obviously have more impact, in various ways, and I am minded to support it for this reason.

As I understand it, the Mayor is still proposing to close Cumberland Rd eastbound when the CAZ comes into effect. I know that a lot of people, particularly businesses on Spike Island, will find that very harmful to their livelihoods, and I have made that well known to the Transport Dept.


Mike

 

[Lightning]

France is getting complicated.

‘Sticker 1 will only be given to hybrid and petrol vehicles’

 

[s2bear]

Have yet to come across a Diesel engine that can run on Petrol. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Not unless you get a Chieftan tank - uses the Leyland L60 multi fuel engine (can mix diesel/petrol/aviation fuel).

I realize this is not a helpful comment (or especially practical for the people of Bristol) but I find it a fascinating thing nonetheless. (I didn’t google to be contradictory, a friend has one)


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[WelshGas]

Not unless you get a Chieftan tank - uses the Leyland L60 multi fuel engine (can mix diesel/petrol/aviation fuel).

I realize this is not a helpful comment (or especially practical for the people of Bristol) but I find it a fascinating thing nonetheless. (I didn’t google to be contradictory, a friend has one)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Are they road legal?

 

[andyinluton]

Are they road legal?

Does it matter? who's going to stop you?

As long as its road registered, has rubber pads one the tracks & the driver has a "H" licence or L plates & accompanied by someone with the H licence.
They are tax & MOT exempt, limited to 20mph & best of all exempt from London congestion charge.

A friend has a couple of self propelled guns - Look like a tank to 99.9% of the population.
His biggest problem is breakdown recovery - 25 tonnes of machine with the tracks locked solid is a logistical nightmare.
Fuel is another issue 3-4mpg on a good day.

 

[Lightning]

Now they propose a clean air charging zone by October. They have already introduced bus gates on some main routes through the centre making getting around tricky.

Motorists to be charged in city centre Clean Air Zone

Bristol mayor Marvin Rees revealed the news in a Facebook Live

www.bristol247.com

 

[GSX1300R]

Normally this wouldn’t worry us and the way things are heading still won’t..We “Used” to go to Portugal in March via Bristol airport and the easy way to get there was through the city..That’s all changed and can’t see that happening in 2021 or maybe 2022..By that time will have changed our Mini Cooper D for some sort of Hybrid..

 

[SimonB]

Normally this wouldn’t worry us and the way things are heading still won’t..We “Used” to go to Portugal in March via Bristol airport and the easy way to get there was through the city..That’s all changed and can’t see that happening in 2021 or maybe 2022..By that time will have changed our Mini Cooper D for some sort of Hybrid..

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-clean-air-zone-cars-4902934
Euro 6 Diesels seem to be OK and Euro 4 petrol So they have seen reason and are not allowing older, more polluting petrol engines but banning all diesels as they firstly tried to do.

This is a recent update on the CAZ in Bristol. The actual number of houses in the CAZ is drastically reduced and the area has been reduced too.
I don't think this will be the final plan as there doesn't seem to be a clear route from the M5 through Hotwell and heading South to Nailsea or the airport.

 

[Lightning]

Clean air zone vehicle checker.

Enter the vehicle registration (number plate) | Drive in a clean air zone | GOV.UK

vehiclecheck.drive-clean-air-zone.service.gov.uk

 

[The Mighty Pauls]

Hey chaps - I will be living inside the CAZ with a Euro 5 Engine (T5.1 2013). I have heard that you may be able to retro fit to make Euro6 compliant. Any thoughts/issues etc?

Many thanks

 

[Louis II]

I tried researching this a while ago. I think the challenge is recertification on the V5 as whatever you do physically charging is based on what it says on the V5.
It also seemed expensive. Things might have moved on since then but I concluded that if it became an issue for me I would get a runaround for every day use. It’s amazing some of the vehicles that are ULEZ compliant. 2nd hand BMW M135i was top of my list.