EU Referendum - 23rd June - How will you vote?

[fred]

What has Europe done for us?

1. The end of war between European nations
2. Democracy is now flourishing in 27 countries
3. The creation of the world's largest internal trading market
4. Unparalleled rights for European consumers
5. Co-operation on continent-wide immigration policy
6. Co-operation on crime, through Europol
7. Laws that make it easier for British people to buy property in Europe
8. Cleaner beaches and rivers throughout Europe
9. Four weeks statutory paid holiday a year for workers in Europe
10. No death penalty (it is incompatible with EU membership)
11. Competition from privatised companies means cheaper phone calls
12. Small EU bureaucracy (24,000 employees, fewer than the BBC)
13. Making the French eat British beef again
14. Minority languages, such as Irish, Welsh and Catalan recognised and protected
15. Europe is helping to save the planet with regulatory cuts in CO2
16. Europe-wide travel bans on tyrants such as Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe
17. The EU gives twice as much aid to developing countries as the United States
18. Strict safety standards for cars, buses and aircraft
19. Free medical help for tourists
20. EU peacekeepers operate in trouble spots throughout the world
21. Europe's single market has brought cheap flights to the masses, and new prosperity for forgotten cities
22. Introduction of pet passports
23. Prospect of EU membership has forced modernisation on Turkey
24. Shopping without frontiers gives consumers more power to shape markets
25. Cheap travel and study programmes means greater mobility for Europe's youth
26. Food labelling is much clearer
27. Compensation for passengers suffering air delays
28. Strict ban on animal testing for the cosmetic industry
29. Greater protection for Europe's wildlife
30. Regional development fund has aided the deprived parts of Britain
31. European driving licences recognised across the EU
32. Britons now feel a lot less insular
33. Europe's bananas remain bent, despite sceptics' fears
34. Single market has brought the best continental footballers to Britain
35. Human rights legislation has protected the rights of the individual
36. European Parliament provides democratic checks on all EU laws
37. EU gives more, not less, sovereignty to nation states
38. Maturing EU is a proper counterweight to the power of US and China
39. European immigration has boosted the British economy
40. Europeans are increasingly multilingual - except Britons, who are less so
41. Europe has set Britain an example how properly to fund a national health service
42. British restaurants now much more cosmopolitan
43. Total mobility for career professionals in Europe

point 37 is the contentious one

 

[Amarillo]

Realistically when you talk of wealth transfer for rich to poor areas who are the rich ones.

A good example is the transfer of wealth from England to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Even within a wealthy region, such as London, there is a transfer of wealth from within. This is a necessary condition of a stable currency union.

The EU is failing because it became to big and unwieldy and anyone who thinks it will survive is dreaming.

We then revert to the question, "Is the UK better able to influence change from within the EU or from outside the EU?"

 

[fred]

Ask yourself this question - do you want to live in a free country which is responsible for its own sovereignty, currency, laws and controls, or live within a single European Federal State where you are simply a member, being told what to do under European law, using a European currency, constantly subsidising the poorer EU member states who haven't managed their own affairs properly, free movement of people with no boundaries on immigration, all decided by faceless unelected EU bureaucrats who have a hidden agenda and all this will soon become binding with no get out clause.

I must be stupid - we already have democratically elected representation at the EU level, at a country level and at a local level.

Why doesn't the above argument also extend to devolution for Scotland or Cornwall or Gloucestershire, or 32 Acacia Avenue?

It's not that poorer countries haven't managed their affairs well, it's that we (mainly UK, US, France and Germany) have been profiting from them for a very long time. The UK has probably the longest record of this of the four - The UK was built on the slave trade and violent colonisation after all.

So is the leave argument simply no more than now the UK has got as much as it can it doesn't want to subsidise those less well off or work together for the common good of humanity any more? Surely not...

 

[Digger]

A good example is the transfer of wealth from England to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Even within a wealthy region, such as London, there is a transfer of wealth from within. This is a necessary condition of a stable currency union.



We then revert to the question, "Is the UK better able to influence change from within the EU or from outside the EU?"

If you look at oil revenues squandered you will see we share as a country. Try that with 27 others. As for Fred saying Turkey is modernising he has no idea. That country is being taken over by an authoritarian regime determined to take the country back to god knows what.

The benefits he lists are irrelevant as we manage quite well on our own. He described our land as a irrelevant bankrupt place therefore unable to exert influence. Do you think we could not achieve as much as a trading partnership? Perhaps closed and insecure minds crave the security of being told what to do. I do not!

 

[pjm-84]

Interesting and very polarised views on here. Lets just wait and see.

I've looked into Spectre, sorry the EU, and will be voting to remain. I was a 90/10 before but now more than ever convinced from the posts above.

The emotional words will not persuade me and sadly do not add to the out cause.

I did accept previously that unhinged was not suitable and irrational (non logically) was a better word and take small exception to "insecure minds craves the security".

 

[Amarillo]

Try that with 27 others.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not in favour of the UK joining the Euro.

 

[Amarillo]

How did outsourcing to China cause the GFC?

It didn't. China has been the engine of global GDP growth for two decades or more.

 

[Digger]

It didn't. China has been the engine of global GDP growth for two decades or more.

Funny that the rise of China coincided with the effects of the main players closing the US factories and moving work overseas. That caused major unemployment in the US and foreclosures on their mortgages. The Financial Crash was not instantaneous.It was the result of actions which then had consequences the US still reels from. I think we all want the same thing an EU which recognises and respects individual countries rights to belong but control their own destiny. I have no problem being part of the common market but honestly believe that if will fail and fail disastrously unless reduced and reformed.

 

[DavidofHook]

David this is not correct. Our economy has suffered because UK and US banks lent money to subprime mortgage borrowers who couldn't pay it back. the UK economy outperformed and UK house prices boomed from 1996 - 2008. In doing so we caused a global recession which pushed down interest rates. We (the UK and US governments) deployed vast quantitative easing (ie. We issued government debt) to bail out the banks that were about to go bankrupt because if they hadn't we would have had a domestic economic collapse like Iceland has had. The EU was forced by our move to follow suit, they had no choice when US and UK voluntarily devalued their currencies. German, French and UK banks spotted an opportunity to deploy this new free money in to Greece, Argentina etc. Who then also couldn't repay it.

It may not seem like it but we in the developed countries (US, UK, Germany, France) have been getting rich lending money to poor people whom cannot afford to go bankrupt, and then we lend them more (in the form of a bailout loan). Our domestic governments then hit their citizens via "austerity measures" to cut our national debt and keep us competitive.

The clear answer to all of this is strong fiscal governance, and if this doesn't come from the EU then where does it come from? It's true that the EU isn't perfect and there are many opportunities for improvement. But the answer isn't to blame and then dismantle the structures that protect us.

Fred,
Clearly subprime mortgages bundled up and resold as risk free stocks is what brought about the crash...... But...... The Eu is not what is protecting us. They allowed Greece and other countries into the Euro who could not really meet the standards just to push the political need for a wider Union. the PIGS counties no longer have their own currency so they cannot adjust interest rates etc and so are being ground down to the extent that in Greece the elected government has been set aside and an unelected troika put in charge . All have unsustainable
levels of unemployment and debt. The Germans no longer want their taxes to support Greece and th Greeks are waving NaZi flags because the Germans are insisting on austerity (real austerity, not what we have here).
So, no protection, democracy being undermined again and the continent is being pulled apart.
I would prefer to see the EU revert back to a trading bloc so we do not have to have a Brexit but that is unlikely to happen so I am still for out.

 

[Amarillo]

Funny that the rise of China coincided with the effects of the main players closing the US factories and moving work overseas. That caused major unemployment in the US and foreclosures on their mortgages. The Financial Crash was not instantaneous.It was the result of actions which then had consequences the US still reels from. I think we all want the same thing an EU which recognises and respects individual countries rights to belong but control their own destiny. I have no problem being part of the common market but honestly believe that if will fail and fail disastrously unless reduced and reformed.

As China industrialised manufacturing moved from industrialised economies to China. The wealth this generated for China lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, and gave the Chinese government huge foreign currency reserves, rising from 2 billion US$ in 1980 to nearly 4 trillion US$ in 2014. Much of this foreign currency is held in US treasury bonds. This gives/gave the US government cheap credit, which in turn fed through to the banks and cheap lending led to the sub-prime crisis.

China now has the World's second largest economy, and is asserting ever greater authority globally, politically, economically and militarily. On its own, Britain is just a pawn, as part of the world's largest trading block, Britain can stand up to China's ever increasing authority.

 

[bigmac77]

What has Europe done for us?

1. The end of war between European nations
2. Democracy is now flourishing in 27 countries
3. The creation of the world's largest internal trading market
4. Unparalleled rights for European consumers
5. Co-operation on continent-wide immigration policy
6. Co-operation on crime, through Europol
7. Laws that make it easier for British people to buy property in Europe
8. Cleaner beaches and rivers throughout Europe
9. Four weeks statutory paid holiday a year for workers in Europe
10. No death penalty (it is incompatible with EU membership)
11. Competition from privatised companies means cheaper phone calls
12. Small EU bureaucracy (24,000 employees, fewer than the BBC)
13. Making the French eat British beef again
14. Minority languages, such as Irish, Welsh and Catalan recognised and protected
15. Europe is helping to save the planet with regulatory cuts in CO2
16. Europe-wide travel bans on tyrants such as Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe
17. The EU gives twice as much aid to developing countries as the United States
18. Strict safety standards for cars, buses and aircraft
19. Free medical help for tourists
20. EU peacekeepers operate in trouble spots throughout the world
21. Europe's single market has brought cheap flights to the masses, and new prosperity for forgotten cities
22. Introduction of pet passports
23. Prospect of EU membership has forced modernisation on Turkey
24. Shopping without frontiers gives consumers more power to shape markets
25. Cheap travel and study programmes means greater mobility for Europe's youth
26. Food labelling is much clearer
27. Compensation for passengers suffering air delays
28. Strict ban on animal testing for the cosmetic industry
29. Greater protection for Europe's wildlife
30. Regional development fund has aided the deprived parts of Britain
31. European driving licences recognised across the EU
32. Britons now feel a lot less insular
33. Europe's bananas remain bent, despite sceptics' fears
34. Single market has brought the best continental footballers to Britain
35. Human rights legislation has protected the rights of the individual
36. European Parliament provides democratic checks on all EU laws
37. EU gives more, not less, sovereignty to nation states
38. Maturing EU is a proper counterweight to the power of US and China
39. European immigration has boosted the British economy
40. Europeans are increasingly multilingual - except Britons, who are less so
41. Europe has set Britain an example how properly to fund a national health service
42. British restaurants now much more cosmopolitan
43. Total mobility for career professionals in Europe

point 37 is the contentious one

Don't forget the aqueduct.

 

[DavidofHook]

Interesting bit of information form the daughter of an old friend about the cost to us of EU membership. She mentioned in passing that for the last nine years she has been fostering 3 girls, not from the UK but from Lithuania and Poland.
If this applies across the UK then either we are not able to foster all the UK children we should, or we are spending much more of our taxes to foster children from the EU as well as those from the UK.
I am not suggesting that children should not be cared for by the way but that fostering would seem to be another service under pressure.

 

[fred]

Interesting bit of information form the daughter of an old friend about the cost to us of EU membership. She mentioned in passing that for the last nine years she has been fostering 3 girls, not from the UK but from Lithuania and Poland.
If this applies across the UK then either we are not able to foster all the UK children we should, or we are spending much more of our taxes to foster children from the EU as well as those from the UK.
I am not suggesting that children should not be cared for by the way but that fostering would seem to be another service under pressure.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here David. Do you feel like you can extrapolate an argument from this one piece of information? If so, what is that?

 

[hirsty]

Here you go - as usual Philomena nails it:

 

[hirsty]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here David. Do you feel like you can extrapolate an argument from this one piece of information? If so, what is that?

I think that's broadly the fabled Manchester Evening News formula for dictating what went on the front page.

If you think Family Services are squeezed here after the downturn how would you imagine it's going in Lithuania and Poland, or does that not matter?

Pulling up the drawbridge in times of crisis no longer works in the 21st century - all our economies, security & environment are all inextricably & immediately linked and the world is getting rapidly smaller. Cooperation and discussion are the only way to tackle the new challenges, we all sink or swim together now.

 

[Flood51]

Some very interesting arguments but I think it would be a mistake to vote remain. It's not a democracy, the MEPs are just there to scrutinise and approve. It's too big and not nimble which is why it's an economic basket case. It a pigs trough for MEPs and officials. And it dishes out money to most of the organisations which want us to remain. I thinks that's bribery. It can't react in today's fast moving world. I want power devolved not centralised. Of course no one likes change so it's so much easier to vote remain. Just my opinion of course.

 

[pjm-84]

I wouldn't disagree with the above. That to me is not the question. The question is would the UK (not me individually) be better in or out of Europe.

 

[aileron346]

Interesting bit of information form the daughter of an old friend about the cost to us of EU membership. She mentioned in passing that for the last nine years she has been fostering 3 girls, not from the UK but from Lithuania and Poland.
If this applies across the UK then either we are not able to foster all the UK children we should, or we are spending much more of our taxes to foster children from the EU as well as those from the UK.
I am not suggesting that children should not be cared for by the way but that fostering would seem to be another service under pressure.

OK. So in a Europe that has, as a key principle, freedom to live and work in any member state, our welfare system looks after some people of other nationalities. Do you think Spain, France, Italy and other countries may feel similarly when, for many years we have been exporting mainly elderly people to their countries? I suspect health and social welfare burdens from UK emigrants are significant in those countries.

 

[Amarillo]

Interesting bit of information form the daughter of an old friend about the cost to us of EU membership. She mentioned in passing that for the last nine years she has been fostering 3 girls, not from the UK but from Lithuania and Poland.

I hope there will be many more people like your old friend's daughter, not only fostering children in need of care from within the EU, but also the thousands of unaccompanied children arriving in camps in Lebanon from Syria.

 

[Amarillo]

point 37 is the contentious one

Point 1 would be contentious in Ukraine.

 

[Teejay]

Don't forget the aqueduct.

Sanitation!

 

[WelshGas]

OK. So in a Europe that has, as a key principle, freedom to live and work in any member state, our welfare system looks after some people of other nationalities. Do you think Spain, France, Italy and other countries may feel similarly when, for many years we have been exporting mainly elderly people to their countries? I suspect health and social welfare burdens from UK emigrants are significant in those countries.

Very simple. They pay via their insurance. No insurance and they return to the UK. No free handouts in Europe.

 

[WelshGas]

I hope there will be many more people like your old friend's daughter, not only fostering children in need of care from within the EU, but also the thousands of unaccompanied children arriving in camps in Lebanon from Syria.

And exactly why are they unaccompanied?

 

[Amarillo]

Very simple. They pay via their insurance. No insurance and they return to the UK. No free handouts in Europe.

As I understand it, those in receipt of a UK old age pension, or on long-term sickness benefit, are entitled to form S1, which in turn entitles them to the same level of healthcare as retired and sick Spanish nationals.

 

[fred]

Very simple. They pay via their insurance. No insurance and they return to the UK. No free handouts in Europe.

Welshgas I remember from another post that you worked in the NHS for 40+ years and are fiercely against the dismantling and commercialisation of the NHS. But you seem to be advancing an argument here that all pensioners (and non-nationals?) must have insurance to cover their healthcare costs, even if they have paid NI contributions. I see three issues with this approach:

• Citizens are double charged - they pay via NI and also via private insurance
• The principle of the NHS is that it is free at the point of use. This would no longer apply, and those who couldn't pay would be denied critical care
• Why would you stop at pensioners? Why not charge everyone for healthcare?

And exactly why are they unaccompanied?

They're orphan refugees fleeing civil war. They didn't make the choice to become an orphan or to live in a country under war. It's us in the UK, US, France and Russia who are bombing their country (including hospitals and refugee camps), killing civilians (and profiting from it).