EU Referendum - 23rd June - How will you vote?

[fred]

There is no evidence of this. It is used by some to scare but in reality the global financial system does not recognise that there is a problem. The politicians and their accomplices exaggerate but several high ranking sources say the biggest danger is the stock market in London selling out to the Germans. That would never be allowed in Germany. They maintain internal power while out weak politicians sell us out.

I have plenty of first hand evidence. I'm in the process of contingency planning HQ moves for several large FS companies.

 

[fred]

The Bank of England, the OECD, the IMF, the World Bank and the USA have all warned the UK strongly against leaving the EU.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/bank-of...o-leave-eu-would-damage-u-k-growth-1463052576
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...lly-meddling-Britain-s-political-process.html

Not only this but every single country internationally with the exception of Russia wants the UK to stay in the EU. So make what you will of that.

 

[Digger]

I don't understand your argument. You accept that the EU referendum isn't about immigration but then go on to complain about immigrants. I'm happy to challenge your view on immigration with facts, and you seem unable to refute them with other facts, just scepticism about the government. I can't argue with your irrationality, sorry. Here are some more, independent facts for you from the Economist and UCL: http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ce-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

Read carefuly the comment was about integration and the problems that causes. You are obviously IN and as for quoted facts from publications there is no doubt immigration can improve the country but we should have a say in who is allowed in.
As for FS companies moving and contingency plans name names as this was quoted during the Scottish referendum but was later found out to be false as no such plans were proposed.
The issue is in self government and democracy. Look at the other countries and their determination to keep national identity. As I said read carefully and consider your position.

 

[rich-s]

I'm no expert, but this is quite an interesting read


Betsy M MacKay
14 April · Forres ·


I, probably like most of my generation, knew very little about the EU. I had done a Masters degree in the 70s; brought up my family, and by the early 2000s was ready to return to University. I was privileged to return to University to complete a Second Masters Degree; this time in European Policy, European Law and European Economic Analysis. Words cannot describe the horror I felt as I delved into the truth of the EU. Sends shivers down my spine to this day, remembering the horror of the realisation, that we had been hoodwinked into the EU by deceitful, disingenuous, intentionally devious means. The populace of the UK was never intended to find out the truth behind the EU, until they reckoned it was too late. Truth is it almost....almost...almost is too late. We already are, in the UK, all but a federal state in the United States of Europe. You never quite realised that, did you? Why? Because they very deliberately decided not to tell you! They deliberately created a political elite who knew full well that power was being ceded, systematically, Treaty by Treaty, to the EU. But who knew? They did! But were we the UK populace ever informed? Absolutely not! Why? They made mega millions from EU scammery & we the minions were shafted day, daily, monthly, yearly & forever. Where did your pensions go? Where did your schools, your NHS, your housing, your social services go? Well, £55 million per day, every day, every week, every month, every year..... Guess what? That is why UK is bankrupted for generations to come, with a £1.5 trillion pound debt. I wish I could enlighten the populace of the UK to the real truth about the EU. I spent a year studying the EU in depth, visiting both the EU Parliament and EU Commission in Brussels. Every word I heard in lectures, hundreds of hours of lectures, every word I researched for my thesis and every thing I saw in Brussels, lead me to the inescapable conclusion that the EU is an utterly corrupt, profligate, political monstrosity which has destroyed British jobs and bankrupted the UK for generations to come. The EU operates on lobbying, which is the technical term for bribery and corruption. Whatever Cameron says, EU law has supremacy over our UK law unless there is Treaty change. He may say so but the truth is that 27 other countries will never agree, this side of eternity, to change the Treaties.
So …..what is the connection between the EU, the Bilderberg Group and the almost completed TTIP? (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership)
The Bilderberg Group meet in secret each year and they are a group of phenomenally wealthy men and women from the worlds of big business, banking and politics, coming from across Europe and the US.
The TTIP represents an integral component of Bilderberg’s attempt to rescue the unipolar world (New World Order) by creating a “world company,” initially a free trade area, which would connect the United States with Europe. Just as the European Union started as a mere free trade area and was eventually transformed into a political federation which controls upwards of 50 per cent of its member states’ laws and regulations with total contempt for national sovereignty and democracy, TTIP is designed to accomplish the same goal, only on a bigger scale.
The treaty is likely to advantage the corporations of both the US and the EU, while disadvantaging their people. It presents a danger to democracy and public protection throughout the trading area.
The Bilderberg Group are focussing on how to derail a global political awakening that threatens to hinder Bilderberg’s long standing agenda to centralize power into a one world political federation, a goal set to be advanced with the passage of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP),
Bilderberg globalists are aghast and there is panic in the ranks that their planned EU superstate is being eroded as a result of a populist resistance all around Europe, mainly centred around animosity towards uncontrolled immigration policies.
And just who might we expect to find at such a secret gathering? Angela Merkel, Herman Van Rompuy (ex President of EU Council), Jean Claude Juncker, (Present President of the EU Commission), Martin Schultz,( Present President of EU Parliament), David Cameron, George Osbourne, Tony Blair, Ed Balls, Rona Fairhead, (Chair of the BBC Trust), Michael O’Leary of RyanAir, Stuart Rose (ex M & S, and BSE Chairman), Bill Clinton, Barak Obama………..…and many more. What do they all have in common? They are all trying to persuade you to stay in the EU. Why? Because it is in their warped self interest to do so! Is any of this in your interests? Absolutely not! Their modus operandi is that truth becomes lies and lies become truth. Sound familiar?
No possible option available, other than to get Out of EU ASAP. Vote Leave!

 

[Digger]

Fred I do not know this Mrs Mackay but she has a grasp of the real situation. Do not read articles in papers or the web but read the EU documents which are available (many are not) and then re consider if you can. As for irrational pot and kettle is me being generous.

 

[fred]

Citibank, Goldman Sachs, Deutsche Bank, HSBC, Bank of America, Morgan Stanley specifically, as well as most other US and Asian banks. Most of the insurance companies are planning to move as reported by people in the know who have told me. The only FS companies I know that will stay are RBS and Lloyds TSB which are primarily UK Govt owned.

2million ppl are employed in FS in the UK and the industry generated £66bn UK tax revenue. FS contributed £67bn towards the UK's balance of payments including £18.5bn of exports to Europe alone. To put this in to context, the UK's balance of payments in 2015 was -£96bn.
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5776/trade/uk-balance-of-payments/

 

[Borris]

Exactly this. The referendum vote is not a vote for / against immigration, though it saddens me to see how many people here fail to understand the importance of immigration to the economic welfare of the average British person. EU migrants pay £20bn more in taxes than they receive:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c49043a8-6447-11e4-b219-00144feabdc0.html

I disagree. I think most people in the UK accept the importance of immigration to our economy. We really couldn't keep going effectively without it. However it is the sheer scale of it that worries many voters.

Every year there are more and more cuts to our public services and yet at the same time we are seeing our numbers swelling at an alarming rate. We just cannot expect these services to continue absorbing this increase. If net immigration is not brought under control then what will the UK look like in twenty, thirty or forty years time. Birth rates will rise exponentially. I doubt if we will ever be able to keep pace with the demand for housing. Every dwelling demands water and in some parts of the UK there are already water shortages on a regular basis as demand out strips supply. Apparently we are just about keeping pace with the demand for energy but that is also touch and go at times. Unless I am mistaken, we still do not appear to have any real future national plan to deal with these energy shortfalls. Our society needs the time to adjust and absorb the migrants entering the UK. Is that really possible with such large numbers entering?

I feel that this maybe the single biggest issue facing the long term future of the UK at the moment. I am not sure whether we will be able to effectively control the numbers wishing to enter the UK if we decide to leave, but I am certain we will not if we stay in the EU.

 

[pjm-84]

I only managed half of what she said. Seems to be slightly demented. Found her on Facebook. Interesting read and reinforces the "unhinged" angle. Her arguments are flawed

All of this destruction of our industrial and manufacturing heritage happened in my lifetime because of the European Project. The governments of the UK, of all persuasions were happy to absorb the blame , while all being in cohoots with the evil intentions of the elite in Brussels, & being well compensated financially. Meanwhile using our own contributions from UK to EU, they systematically dismantled our industrial and manufacturing capacity

God save our gracious Queen! So happy and thankful that our Monarch is a Christian lady. Please Lord bless her always and bring all her family to know you personally too.

If you ever had any doubts about just how evil TTIP really is

Seem to blame the EU for everything and a particularly nice post about V.E day.

 

[T6 CFO]

The immigration argument is quite interesting with all these people wanting to come and work here. I suppose it would be OK if they didn't and all our kids wanted to leave?


Mike

 

[Digger]

I only managed half of what she said. Seems to be slightly demented. Found her on Facebook. Interesting read and reinforces the "unhinged" angle. Her arguments are flawed

The problem is everyone is becoming emotional and frightened by the uncertainty. It is ungentlemanly to describe her as unhinged as the basics of her outpourings are actually correct. She points out several truths and is actually accurate in her assessment. I think she is just getting carried away with emotional feelings. Never mock it is unfair.
Forget emotion and its side effects but consider democracy as a right.
If we vote In the so be it but never blame others for the world will continue.






Seem to blame the EU for everything and a particularly nice post about V.E day.

 

[pjm-84]

Just to be clear I don't like the EU....... (evil I'm not sure about). That more of a James Bond story line.

 

[pjm-84]

I agree. Irrational is a better word.

 

[Digger]

She seems to be overcome by emotion but her actual outpourings are factually correct. It is unfair to make unhinged comment as she may be so despairing. Emotions are running high in this debate but it is to be expected. We cannot all agree.
As far the content she outlines it is factually correct and can be verified if you care to research.

 

[fred]

I disagree. I think most people in the UK accept the importance of immigration to our economy. We really couldn't keep going effectively without it. However it is the sheer scale of it that worries many voters.

Every year there are more and more cuts to our public services and yet at the same time we are seeing our numbers swelling at an alarming rate. We just cannot expect these services to continue absorbing this increase. If net immigration is not brought under control then what will the UK look like in twenty, thirty or forty years time. Birth rates will rise exponentially. I doubt if we will ever be able to keep pace with the demand for housing. Every dwelling demands water and in some parts of the UK there are already water shortages on a regular basis as demand out strips supply. Apparently we are just about keeping pace with the demand for energy but that is also touch and go at times. Unless I am mistaken, we still do not appear to have any real future national plan to deal with these energy shortfalls. Our society needs the time to adjust and absorb the migrants entering the UK. Is that really possible with such large numbers entering?

I feel that this maybe the single biggest issue facing the long term future of the UK at the moment. I am not sure whether we will be able to effectively control the numbers wishing to enter the UK if we decide to leave, but I am certain we will not if we stay in the EU.

I see your point. net migration to the uk was 362,000 for YE 09/2015. We've already established that EU immigration (172,000 people) is a net contributor to tax receipts (that, in theory) pays for public services. That is to say, EU immigrants SUBSIDISE existing British people's public services. Non EU immigration comprises of two main groups: refugees fleeing war and persecution, and highly skilled migrants who generally have well paying jobs and pay more tax than average.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

All else being equal, theoretically it makes economic sense to take more migrants because that improves tax receipts and the quality of public services.

In practice however, the U.K. government has been actively cutting public services (NHS, legal aid, education) under a policy of austerity and diverting this extra tax revenue (mainly to tax benefits for the rich, despite what they say about cutting the deficit).

In general we need the EU to protect us against UK government policy.

 

[WelshGas]

Exactly this. The referendum vote is not a vote for / against immigration, though it saddens me to see how many people here fail to understand the importance of immigration to the economic welfare of the average British person. EU migrants pay £20bn more in taxes than they receive:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c49043a8-6447-11e4-b219-00144feabdc0.html

Sorry but I ,personally, must Disagree. I am not concerned whether someone who immigrates to the UK is/is not a burden to the UK taxpayer .
I would like my country to be in control of who is allowed to travel to and work in my country, as they do in the USA, Canada and Australia without some non-elected faceless bureocrat or judge telling my Democratically Government what it can or cannot do.

 

[WelshGas]

I don't understand your argument. You accept that the EU referendum isn't about immigration but then go on to complain about immigrants. I'm happy to challenge your view on immigration with facts, and you seem unable to refute them with other facts, just scepticism about the government. I can't argue with your irrationality, sorry. Here are some more, independent facts for you from the Economist and UCL: http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ce-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

Sorry. Those figures are NOT Independant by any stretch of a really fertile imagination.

 

[pjm-84]

I'm trying to resist getting involved in public services, privatisation and monopolies. Sadly all predictable.

I consulted for a large privatised local authority service on and off for a few years. I could tell you some hard truths. Nothing related or linked with the EU.

(I actually edited this post before posting. The implications are far reaching and not for public content)

 

[WelshGas]

One of the original tenants of the EU was that member countries would have a broadly similar standard of living, human rights, democracy and judicial system. That was true in the original 8 country organisation.
That is no longer true by any stretch of the imagination.
Ignoring the Refugees fleeing war there is now significant European economic migration from new member states to those states with higher living standards and because of the failed EU border controls massive economic migration from Middle East an African countries which the non-elected EU Bureocracy cannot control. The EU is tearing itself apart because of this and whether we are a part of it or not the EU is on a slippery, downward slope. We are better out than in, and I cannot see many, if any of these global financial companies moving house to a failed state.

 

[fred]

Sorry but I ,personally, must Disagree. I am not concerned whether someone who immigrates to the UK is/is not a burden to the UK taxpayer .

No need to apologise

I would like my country to be in control of who is allowed to travel to and work in my country, as they do in the USA, Canada and Australia without some non-elected faceless bureocrat or judge telling my Democratically Government what it can or cannot do.

And I know a lot of people share this concern. We already have this in place of course for non EU migration and democratically the 172,000 EU migrants have only limited access as we're not part of the Shengen agreement. But here's the rub. Even if we vote leave the UK will almost certainly want / need to remain as a member of the EEA. Which will mean freedom of movement. This is why I keep saying that the referendum isn't an immigration issue.

 

[WelshGas]

No need to apologise

And I know a lot of people share this concern. We already have this in place of course for non EU migration and democratically the 172,000 EU migrants have only limited access as we're not part of the Shengen agreement. But here's the rub. Even if we vote leave the UK will almost certainly want / need to remain as a member of the EEA. Which will mean freedom of movement. This is why I keep saying that the referendum isn't an immigration issue.

There is no reason why the points based working visa system cannot be extended to EU residents if necessary.
Even if we want to remain a member of the EEA at least that will be a decision made by our Democratically elected Parliament.

 

[Amarillo]

The immigration argument is quite interesting with all these people wanting to come and work here. I suppose it would be OK if they didn't and all our kids wanted to leave?

I recall in the 80s the scandal of UK trained professionals, such as nurses and teachers emigrating to Canada and Australia for a better standard of living. And who remembers the TV series Auf Wiedersehen, Pet, about a team of British builders seeking work overseas.

Pity Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania who have lost so many of their well-qualified younger generation to Britain and other richer European countries, working first as waiters, cleaners or security guards until their English, German or Swedish improves sufficiently for them to find jobs more appropriate for their qualifications such as accountants, dentists and architects. We are a richer country because of immigration from the EU, and certainly not poorer as a result of it.

 

[fred]

There is no reason why the points based working visa system cannot be extended to EU residents if necessary.
Even if we want to remain a member of the EEA at least that will be a decision made by our Democratically elected Parliament.

I don't really follow you, sorry.

We already have a democratically elected parliament which has chosen (so far) to be in Europe and have free movement of goods and services, with (managed but) free movement of people. If we vote to leave the EU and move to a points based system for EU nationals, Europe will of course reciprocate. This is our worst nightmare as it triggers export tariffs for the UK to Europe (ie. Britain chooses limitations to movement of goods, services and people) and our exports and economy will be hit very, very badly.

Alternatively, If the UK votes to leave Europe and wishes to remain part of the EEA (which is the much more likely scenario in a Brexit situation), then what will a vote to leave Europe have achieved (except much more self-imposed bureaucracy and the risk that the EU rejects the UK's application to remain in the EEA?) We'll still have a democratically elected government and free movement of goods, services and people with European countries.

Or to put it another way, what's the upside of voting to leave?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

 

[fred]

And before anyone says that there is a third option (as followed by the Swiss) of a set of bilateral agreements, the Swiss model of bilateral agreements contain largely the same content as the EEA treaties including freedom of movement, and are either all in force or none of them are in force. So in all but name this is the same as being a member of the EEA, hence Switzerland is a "virtual member" of the EEA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations

 

[WelshGas]

I don't really follow you, sorry.

We already have a democratically elected parliament which has chosen (so far) to be in Europe and have free movement of goods and services, with (managed but) free movement of people. If we vote to leave the EU and move to a points based system for EU nationals, Europe will of course reciprocate. This is our worst nightmare as it triggers export tariffs for the UK to Europe (ie. Britain chooses limitations to movement of goods, services and people) and our exports and economy will be hit very, very badly.

The U.K. Decided to join the original 8 countries not the present 28, and we have never been given a chance until know to decide if the present EU organisation of 28 is what we want.
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the present balance of trade between the EU and the U.K. Is in the EUs favour?
So, you believe the EU collectively or individually will put that at risk by raising tariffs? Somehow I don't think so. I believe if the UK votes to leave then the destruction/ change of the EU will follow in short order .
I seriously believe they need us a lot more than we need them. If we leave there will be some massive changes in EU countries with demands for their own referenda and a new sense of pragmatic realism leading to a significant change in the EU .

Is it a risk worth taking? Yes, because the EU has lost its original ideals, will not listen and therefore needs a massive kick up the backside and wholesale reorganisation.

 

[fred]

I would like my country to be in control of who is allowed to travel to and work in my country, as they do in the USA..

Just to understand you correctly, you're arguing for States to unite and decide/manage their immigration policy collectively?