EU Referendum - 23rd June - How will you vote?

[WelshGas]

Just to understand you correctly, you're arguing for States to unite and decide/manage their immigration policy collectively?

No, I want the UK to decide . I do not want anyone outside the UK to decide , not even a United States of Europe, unless the people of the U.K. Democratically vote to remain a member of this corrupt organisation.

 

[Flood51]

Emotions are running high on this subject but it's good see everyone remains civil. My point about the millennium bug was there was a massive amount of disinformation going around and it's the same with the referendum.
Personally I have no issue with the level of immigration, I was operated on by a very nice Spanish doctor in a NHS hospital. I am not sure I believe they are net contributors, I also read articles which maintain that unless you are paying the 40% tax rate or more you are not a net contributor and I suspect there are more lower skilled immigrants than the skilled and qualified. It seems very far fetched to me that our financial industry would emigrate if we voted to leave. No doubt there would be turbulence in the financial markets, very much like those produced by the Euro crisis. There will be problems if we leave or stay but we will be able to react faster if we leave. Of course another risk of leaving is we'll start a rush to the exit and the whole project will fold.
To me it's all about democracy, that's what I'll base my vote on.

 

[fred]

No, I want the UK to decide . I do not want anyone outside the UK to decide , not even a United States of Europe, unless the people of the U.K. Democratically vote to remain a member of this corrupt organisation.

But individual states in the USA don't have immigration quotas for people coming in from other states, so the USA is an example of how freedom of movement within a set of states works extremely well. That is to say, it's a pro-EU argument.

 

[Digger]

Fred if you read my posts you would realise that I support a reduced EU with limited powers. The main problem I have is that it is getting out of control and the power mad EC/EU seems unable to recognise that it is too large and unwieldy. Too may countries have joined and to be honest have suffered as a result of conditions imposed which their economies cannot comply with. The EC /EU is undemocratic and has plans which are not based on freedoms but on collective control. Boris J is a very intelligent politician (See his Uni results) but sometimes does himself no favours when describing his opinion as to the EU. It has written down intentions os a federal EU with such restriction that once in place cannot be dismantled. That is one of the most dangerous idiotic proposals ever made as basically all the EU member countries will never surrender their nation identities and no politician will ever convince them. Appeasement is dangerous when the consequences of federalism is obvious. Reduce its size, reduce its power, and let us all remain friends.

 

[Digger]

Apologies for typo errors as I cannot type to sve mselv

 

[fred]

The U.K. Decided to join the original 8 countries not the present 28, and we have never been given a chance until know to decide if the present EU organisation of 28 is what we want.
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the present balance of trade between the EU and the U.K. Is in the EUs favour?
So, you believe the EU collectively or individually will put that at risk by raising tariffs? Somehow I don't think so. I believe if the UK votes to leave then the destruction/ change of the EU will follow in short order .
I seriously believe they need us a lot more than we need them. If we leave there will be some massive changes in EU countries with demands for their own referenda and a new sense of pragmatic realism leading to a significant change in the EU .

Is it a risk worth taking? Yes, because the EU has lost its original ideals, will not listen and therefore needs a massive kick up the backside and wholesale reorganisation.

It's not the EU that will raise tariffs, it's the UK that will do so by voting to leave a low tariff zone. The UK/EU net balance of trade is not trivial but not huge either, £3.5bn / month deficit (UK importS £3.5bn/mo more than it exports to EU).
I think that this sums up the crux of the leave argument quite well; some of us are prepared to vote FOR sovereignty over the right to allow 172,000 EU nationals to move to the UK, despite them subsidising our public services and that to do so will have a massive negative consequence on our economy, and we don't really care that this may cause the collapse of the EU and a possible global recession. Whilst the western world deals with that, China will eat us (economically and politically) and Russia is free to carry on making trouble (as we've seen in Ukraine recently).

Personally this argument makes no sense as we end up with sovereignty over an inconsequential little bankrupt island. I would much rather we prioritise the welfare of everybody in the EU, working together for a common good.

 

[fred]

...The EC /EU is undemocratic and has plans which are not based on freedoms but on collective control.

but we've had democratically elected MEPs for ages representing our needs in Europe. It's us that have chosen to elect UKIP to the European Parliament

 

[fred]

Fred if you read my posts you would realise that I support a reduced EU with limited powers. The main problem I have is that it is getting out of control and the power mad EC/EU seems unable to recognise that it is too large and unwieldy.

If this is what you want then the rational thing to do would be to vote to remain in the EU and influence the scope of powers as we will have a vote on every decision that the EU makes in the future. If we vote to leave then we have no control over it's direction, we'd be walking away from the table leaving our chair upturned.

 

[Digger]

but we've had democratically elected MEPs for ages representing our needs in Europe. It's us that have chosen to elect UKIP to the European Parliament

I note you show disdain over the ukip MEP's. They were democratically elected so have a right to be there.
We have never been told the truth or allowed to voice grievances so here is our opportunity to tell all politicians both here and in Europe how we feel.
I do dislike your comment describing Britain as an 'inconsequential little bankrupt island'. I suggest if you feel that is the case maybe your place is in Europe!!

 

[fred]

I note you show disdain over the ukip MEP's. They were democratically elected so have a right to be there.
We have never been told the truth or allowed to voice grievances so here is our opportunity to tell all politicians both here and in Europe how we feel.

then blame Farage, he's the democratically elected MEP. I would just ask that you don't punish the rest of us with your protest vote.

I do dislike your comment describing Britain as an 'inconsequential little bankrupt island'. I suggest if you feel that is the case maybe your place is in Europe!!

I dislike it too but it's the cold hard reality of an out vote. Ive offered up the economic and political facts for you to decide.

Fred out.

 

[Amarillo]

I also read articles which maintain that unless you are paying the 40% tax rate or more you are not a net contributor and I suspect there are more lower skilled immigrants than the skilled and qualified.

Don't forget that an adult immigrant will have had their education and care to adulthood paid for by the taxpayers of another country. The point at which they become net contributors to the UK economy will be much lower than for a UK born national.

 

[Flood51]

Don't forget that an adult immigrant will have had their education and care to adulthood paid for by the taxpayers of another country. The point at which they become net contributors to the UK economy will be much lower than for a UK born national.

Good Point. What I read had nothing to do with immigration it was just about the point at which a citizen becomes a net contributor and obviously included an element for education.

 

[T6 CFO]

If this is what you want then the rational thing to do would be to vote to remain in the EU and influence the scope of powers as we will have a vote on every decision that the EU makes in the future. If we vote to leave then we have no control over it's direction, we'd be walking away from the table leaving our chair upturned.

I made this point before but it is getting more cemented in my thoughts. Before I was thinking aloud.

I think I would vote in if I believed we could influence the direction. I now have to work out whether I think that's possible.

I appreciate the realities of what could happen if we voted out are a legitimate argument but they are possible consequences and I believe the debate should be more about democracy such as that is in such a connected world.

As for immigration I find that vital to the continued development of understanding and tolerance. Unfortunately the economic and security issues require some control. If we could debate this subject better and more honestly we could at least move on.

 

[Digger]

I made this point before but it is getting more cemented in my thoughts. Before I was thinking aloud.

I think I would vote in if I believed we could influence the direction. I now have to work out whether I think that's possible.

I appreciate the realities of what could happen if we voted out are a legitimate argument but they are possible consequences and I believe the debate should be more about democracy such as that is in such a connected world.

As for immigration I find that vital to the continued development of understanding and tolerance. Unfortunately the economic and security issues require some control. If we could debate this subject better and more honestly we could at least move on.

If they had treated Cameron a bit better instead of making him look foolish I would have thought we had a chance. The arrogance and unwillingness to concede little was a signal that they just don't care.

The economic argument and figures put forward have to be looked at in perspective. When have 'official' figures and statistics even been either accurate or true?

That said if they were serious about keeping Britain they should make concessions now. Give us it in writing with a guarantee that we can opt out of ever closer union and then we can talk.
I am only interested in democracy and keeping sovereign control of our future.

 

[T6 CFO]

If they had treated Cameron a bit better instead of making him look foolish I would have thought we had a chance. The arrogance and unwillingness to concede little was a signal that they just don't care.

The economic argument and figures put forward have to be looked at in perspective. When have 'official' figures and statistics even been either accurate or true?

That said if they were serious about keeping Britain they should make concessions now. Give us it in writing with a guarantee that we can opt out of ever closer union and then we can talk.
I am only interested in democracy and keeping sovereign control of our future.

I suspect the problem lay as it always does with politicians having to pander to their own electorate. I suspect in private quite a lot is agreed on but not palatable to be stated. It's a bit like the hand wringing over dealing with mass movements of people for economic and security reasons. The whole debate is often just simplistic and confrontational.
Just look at the way Trump has all but secured the Republican nomination, unbelievable! He has achieved this by knowing his target audience, using fear and prejudice and keeping it simple because sadly that's all many of those that vote can understand or are willing to be bothered with.
Sorry but I'm rambling on.
For the record I still don't know which way I shall jump.

 

[Martin Batt]

I remember my first trip in a VW camper - to France in 1973. We had just joined the EU and we crossed into Spain, into the Basque country. Spain was still a dictatorship, but on joining the EU, it became a new democracy and entered the modern world.
In 1973, we were met with heavily armed Franco paramilitary police and the whole atmosphere of our trip changed. Also of us can now travel freely into Spain, Portugal, Croatia, Hungary, Poland and so on - wherever we like, really. Just think of all the benefits that Europe has brought to us as free-spirited travellers in our VWs. Don't we owe it to our friends in Europe to try to make this magnificent project for peace work even better, rather than sit on the sidelines, enjoying Europe, but still complaining about our "loss of sovereignty"? Agreed, it's by no means perfect. But we are simply not big, or strong, enough to act alone these days. We have great friends in Europe, and the UK has enormous strengths in the art of diplomacy, government and politics - we should work together.

 

[WelshGas]

I remember my first trip in a VW camper - to France in 1973. We had just joined the EU and we crossed into Spain, into the Basque country. Spain was still a dictatorship, but on joining the EU, it became a new democracy and entered the modern world.
In 1973, we were met with heavily armed Franco paramilitary police and the whole atmosphere of our trip changed. Also of us can now travel freely into Spain, Portugal, Croatia, Hungary, Poland and so on - wherever we like, really. Just think of all the benefits that Europe has brought to us as free-spirited travellers in our VWs. Don't we owe it to our friends in Europe to try to make this magnificent project for peace work even better, rather than sit on the sidelines, enjoying Europe, but still complaining about our "loss of sovereignty"? Agreed, it's by no means perfect. But we are simply not big, or strong, enough to act alone these days. We have great friends in Europe, and the UK has enormous strengths in the art of diplomacy, government and politics - we should work together.

I believe that if the UK votes Out then many of the original 8 founding countries will be forced by their own populations to hold similar referendums or else the EU Council of Ministers will have to reconsider significantly the role of the EU . The EU cannot and will not continue down the present pathway decreed by the Council of Ministers and the EU Bureocracy without major changes. This has already started in some countries in response to the present immigration crisis basically caused by Angela Merkel with her statements that were not condoned by many of the new members and the harsh financial terms forced on those EU members who are part of the Euro grouping and who should never have been allowed to join the Euro in the first place if due diligence had been correctly carried out.
Remember, the U.K. Sits on the UN Security Council. The EU does not. We are a member of NATO, the EU is not. We are a member of the Commonwealth, the EU is not.
Many of the new members of the EU were courted and joined to the EU following the break up of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact out of fear and those are the countries that have built border fences and instituted border controls along with others such as Austria. The EU has failed, has grown too large, too quickly and if we want something better we have to stand up to be counted. An Out vote will be the catalyst for a change that no amount of talk will ever bring about in the present situation.

 

[hirsty]

If they had treated Cameron a bit better instead of making him look foolish I would have thought we had a chance. The arrogance and unwillingness to concede little was a signal that they just don't care.

..,

That said if they were serious about keeping Britain they should make concessions now. Give us it in writing with a guarantee that we can opt out of ever closer union and then we can talk.
I am only interested in democracy and keeping sovereign control of our future.

Cameron needs no help to look foolish, his own half-baked shopping list cobbled together to appease both halves of his own party did that already.

Waste of time of course, as it was "neither nowt nor summat" and Eurosceptic Tory MPs & voters weren't ever going to think he went far enough.

As for concessions from Europe, I'd dispute that they need us more than we need them - free movement works both ways & the benefits restrictions discussed were peanuts relative to the bigger economic picture (unless you read the Mail).

 

[hirsty]

Sensible take on the Boris / Hitler travesty in today's Guardian:

Michael Heseltine, thea former Tory deputy prime minister and remain campaigner, intensified that warning on Sunday night, as he urged voters to judge the leave campaign by their “friends” Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin.

“They are playing with fire. We have been here before. The same themes echoed through the 1920s and 1930s. Every time I hear those who proclaim the desirability of independence and national sovereignty, I shudder with the memory of 1940,” he said.

“We were sovereign. We were alone. Our convoys sank in the Atlantic. Our finances bled. Our overseas armies faced isolation. That was real sovereignty and we were powerless until America entered the war. Peace was hard won. Europe came together to ensure it must never happen again.

“Every world friend we have knows this, warns us of the danger of forgetting it, begs us to maintain our leadership in preserving the framework of stability.”

 

[Amarillo]

It is a big call of a suspected bluff

An Out vote will be the catalyst for a change that no amount of talk will ever bring about in the present situation.

That is one big punt.

Far more likely that there will be once big Gallic shrug of shoulders, a Germanic pitying look and a Grecian chortle that they survived in the club while we didn't, and Europe will continue without us.

The consequences to the UK will be designed to discourage further exits from the group, rather than to punish Brexit.

 

[pjm-84]

Never thought about the discourage consequences. It's only human nature so yes relevant.

Can see a weakened pound and higher interest rates, depressed GDP. Maybe 3 years. Then an GE and a witch hunt. Maybe JC rides in on a white horse with a spend, spend, spend. Inflation starts to rise. Unions start to take control. Business starts to relocate back into Europe.

Still I managed to benefit from a tracker mortgage in Nov 2008 as I forecast a period of low interest rates. I had to sign a disclaimer as I refused to accept the fixed offer being put forward by the "expert".

Maybe I missing something on this one..."

 

[SheffieldSteel]

You have to ask yourself...why are the richest countries in Europe not in the EU, like Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries? Being in the EU is good for the poorer countries. Unfortunately the EU is not being used for what it was originally designed for. UK needs to take back control of its borders and immigration. At the moment its not allowed to. Merkel has single handedly screwed the rest of europe. I'm in the OUT vote.

 

[Digger]

It is a big call of a suspected bluff


That is one big punt.

Far more likely that there will be once big Gallic shrug of shoulders, a Germanic pitying look and a Grecian chortle that they survived in the club while we didn't, and Europe will continue without us.

The consequences to the UK will be designed to discourage further exits from the group, rather than to punish Brexit.

This quote sums up the problem that there is no democracy in the EU and the use of bullying is present already in the EU in respects of individual countries right to self determination. MEP's are on the gravy train and by their very position are locked in to the system and its lucrative expenses so I am wary when they speak of overruling our national government. Power corrupts.To think 28 countries can continue as planned by the EU federalist goal is frankly absurd. The citizens of many countries are also unhappy and that is a serious problem which these federalist ignore at their peril.
I only want to be part of a common market with trade and partnership deals but not in a superstate and especially one with 28 incompatible members.
There should be no fear of change and no fear of recriminations as that would not happen as I think the EU is doomed unless it changes and quickly. They fear our leaving as they know they need us more than we need them. If you think that being in gives us the chance to change them - if only!

 

[pjm-84]

Switzerland is easily explained but long winded. History is also involved but not chocolate.

The Scandinavian countries would require a bit of research. I believe Norway has a very "strong" fishing industry and oil but don't quote me on it. I'm not sure on the others.

 

[SqueakyWheel]

You have to ask yourself...why are the richest countries in Europe not in the EU, like Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries? Being in the EU is good for the poorer countries. Unfortunately the EU is not being used for what it was originally designed for. UK needs to take back control of its borders and immigration. At the moment its not allowed to. Merkel has single handedly screwed the rest of europe. I'm in the OUT vote.

The richest country in Europe by GDP is Germany. By GDP per capita, it's Luxembourg. Both of which are in the EU. As are the 'Scandinavian' countries of Sweden, Finland and Denmark.

One of the EU's goals is to build up the poorer countries so they can become consumers for the goods and services produced by the richer countries. The richer countries will always be net EU contributors in direct funding. The benefit in increased sales is more difficult to measure.