FROZEN GAZ

[raynormor]

3 times last week, No gas to make a cuppa first thing in the morning. Temp overnight below freezing. We were snug under the duvet. Is lagging the gaz pipesand bottle the answer? Shook the bottle and it sounded liquid inside. after 30 minutes with the heating on everything worked ok. Anyone got a solution?

 

[Martin]

If i remember correctly butane starts to freeze at around 4 degrees, I am not sure if you can get 907 Propane cylinders or even a Propane/butane mix which we used to use in our previous motorhome. Propane has a much much lower freezing point.

 

[Californiaman]

We've never had a bottle freeze despite some pretty fresh conditions. Could it be that the particular bottle that you have has some water in it, that is freezing? A new bottle could be the answer...

 

[burko73]

If butane freezes at 4degrees and water freezes at 0 degrees it's prob not water that's the problem.....!

 

[SimplyDubs]

Never had a bottle freeze, however we have had very much reduced gas pressure due to the gas not vaporising... seemed as though it was an almost empty bottle despite knowing it was new.

Not found a way around it, had it happen around 5 or 6 times. (I suppose I could take the cylinder out and cuddle it for a few minutes )

If anyone does have a good solution, I'd be keen to know. (The Cali stove is poor enough with good pressure)

This is a real problem if you cook outside on those little gas cartridge stoves. Low volume means they cool very quickly and the gas coming out also lowers the temperature. Had a couple (which we use with the Multivan) be unusable below around 4 degs.

Rgds
Mark

 

[raynormor]

Thanks for that, i'll see if the pipe route is outside the van (the bottle has the water tank (empty) around it and it was sloshing about when i lifted and shook it (the gaz) so maybe the gaz froze in the pipes. We were sleeping in the van and 2 people must give off a fair bit of warmth, lack of evidence to the contrary i will try and lag the pipe run. It was a real drawback to winter camping which for two in itself is probably the nicest/quietest time of year to tour.

 

[Meoncoast]

interesting to find that gaz too cold to function today only -1 when we tried to have a cupa a the coast this morning. removed the bottle no flow of gas when valved open outside. Later at home bit warmer got it flowing.
Never had an issue before (been using a Cali since 2012)even on colder camping trips.

 

[Jay20cali]

Had ours freeze in France a few years back spending 20 mins moving everything And changing the bottle over to realise the problem was it was too cold
They do a cover not sure it will help but I bought one .
My motorhome used propane no problems with that .
And in our Westfalia it was very well insulated so no problem with that either.
The California has zero insulation
I wouldn’t mind finding out if there’s such a thing like a propane bottle for a California??.obviosly with a different reg.

 

[WelshGas]

That's the reason they use a Propane Cylinder in the Scandinavian countries, but that requires some modification to take the cylinder.



The Gas Pipe runs internally. The problem will be the temperature of the Cylinder.

If the Water tank is empty then you lose the insulating effect of the water - one of the reasons the 907 is surrounded by the water tank.

In normal operation the heat within the vehicle keeps the water from cooling/freezing and this helps to maintain the 907 temperature above 1c. Gas flow may be reduced but still be present.

 

[WelshGas]

Had ours freeze in France a few years back spending 20 mins moving everything And changing the bottle over to realise the problem was it was too cold
They do a cover not sure it will help but I bought one .
My motorhome used propane no problems with that .
And in our Westfalia it was very well insulated so no problem with that either.
The California has zero insulation
I wouldn’t mind finding out if there’s such a thing for a California??

The California has no Insulation, True, but the intention is you would have the Parking Heater ON which warms the interior and the water tank and hence the 907.

 

[Jay20cali]

The California has no Insulation, True, but the intention is you would have the Parking Heater ON which warms the interior and the water tank and hence the 907.

Yep we had the parking heater on .but it was first thing in the morning on our way back home in Euro Disney Paris with the kids ,it was fine in the alps as we had a oil radiator constantly on.we had no water in the tanks to help as we had just spent a week in the alps in upto minus 15 degrees so because I was expecting temperatures like this I drained the water before we left the uk.but it’s good advice if it’s only a few degrees below

 

[bigmac77]

As @WelshGas says its not the cylinder or the gas freezing its due to the temperature being below the boiling point of the butane gas. Butane works best above 10 degrees, below this level it is more and more difficult for the liquid to vaporise and the amount of gas available from the butane will be very much reduced. In a Cali most people will only notice a problem once you get down to below 5 degrees because the the burners are not very big and you may only be running one at a time so even with reduced vaporisation they will work to a degree.

If you can find a propane cylinder that will fit in your gas storage compartment you just need to change the regulator as the working pressure for propane (37 mb) is different to butane (28mb). Propane will keep working down to approx - 40 C.

 

[andyinluton]

Would you need to change the jets in the burners as well as the regulator?

 

[Jay20cali]

Would you need to change the jets in the burners as well as the regulator?

I doubt it as motor homes run off either with just changing the regulator?

 

[bigmac77]

Would you need to change the jets in the burners as well as the regulator?

No.

 

[andyinluton]

Thats what prompted the question, I seem to remember the dealer having to do something to the hob on our motorhome when we changed from Butane to the calorlite bottles as well as changing the regulator.

Easiest solution would be to get a friendly gas supplier to put a bit of propane in a part filled butane cylinder?

 

[bigmac77]

Thats what prompted the question, I seem to remember the dealer having to do something to the hob on our motorhome when we changed from Butane to the calorlite bottles as well as changing the regulator.

Easiest solution would be to get a friendly gas supplier to put a bit of propane in a part filled butane cylinder?

Might not be the best idea. Butane storage pressure 1.9 bar, propane 6.9 bar.

 

[B J G]

Possibly get some hot air in by leaving the rear locker sliding door open , the bottom shelve out and the screw cover off. A small 12v fan might aide hot air flow if directed onto the bottle.

Defeats safety aspect of a sealed compartment but..

 

[GrannyJen]

I have been somewhere in the region of minus 12 (Braemar is a cold place! No wonder they go around throwing telegraph poles all over the place)!

I have never had frozen gas, but as a habit I keep my van warm, even when not in it, and leave all the cupboards open to allow that warm air to circulate. I think anyone sleeping in the van in the depths of winter and inadvertently opening one of the cupboard doors in the middle of the night would understand from the blast of most unwelcome arctic air just how cold they can get even when the van is being kept warm and slept in.

 

[Loz]

More likely the regulator frozen.

 

[WelshGas]

Could use something like this. https://www.vaporgas.co.nz/files/4314/4133/8776/VaporBooster_Datasheet_141028.pdf

Or some 12v heating blanket. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01GQ07U4G/?tag=eliteelect-21

 

[Walrus]

Or https://tinyurl.com/ycoepaxz

might be enough

 

[GrannyJen]

If it gets frozen beyond thaw, drop me an email. I will ask my mum in law to breath on it, she doesn't need to be close, just a handy GPS reference, she can melt arctic ice from half a continent away

 

[bvddobb]

We have written about it before (see e.g this thread): indeed butane (Campingaz) stops vaporising around 4 degrees Celsius. That's why they don't sell Campingaz in Scandinavia.

We do a lot of winter camping, and we have got ourselves one of those ALUmini refillable propane bottles, they fit the gas compartment in the Cali, and you do not need to change anything to the setup, regulator, etc. You just need a different valve (seeing that propane has a higher pressure at comparable temperatures than butane; around 30 degrees Celsius the pressure is much higher than what the Campingaz bottle and valve are designed for! Never put propane in a butane bottle!):



We also have a set of filling adapters, because the filling stations in different countries such as Italy, Germany or Norway use different attachments.

You can order these ALUmini refillable bottles, together with a valve and adapter set, online in Germany on eBay or at several on line shops, e.g. here: http://www.gas-shop-24.de/gasflasche/alugasflasche2kg.php

Careful: there is also a 2.7 kg variant of the ALUmini, but that is too big for the Cali's gas compartment!

The bottle is € 109, a filling about € 6, so if you refill 4 times instead of changing your Campingaz 907 at on average € 30 a time, you have recovered your investment .

 

[Jay20cali]

We have written about it before (see e.g this thread): indeed butane (Campingaz) stops vaporising around 4 degrees Celsius. That's why they don't sell Campingaz in Scandinavia.

We do a lot of winter camping, and we have got ourselves one of those ALUmini refillable propane bottles, they fit the gas compartment in the Cali, and you do not need to change anything to the setup, regulator, etc. You just need a different valve (seeing that propane has a higher pressure at comparable temperatures than butane; around 30 degrees Celsius the pressure is much higher than what the Campingaz bottle and valve are designed for! Never put propane in a butane bottle!):

View attachment 28304

We also have a set of filling adapters, because the filling stations in different countries such as Italy, Germany or Norway use different attachments.

You can order these ALUmini refillable bottles, together with a valve and adapter set, online in Germany on eBay or at several on line shops, e.g. here: http://www.gas-shop-24.de/gasflasche/alugasflasche2kg.php

Careful: there is also a 2.7 kg variant of the ALUmini, but that is too big for the Cali's gas compartment!

The bottle is € 109, a filling about € 6, so if you refill 4 times instead of changing your Campingaz 907 at on average € 30 a time, you have recovered your investment .

That’s fantastic thanks for the share