Is 4 motion really necessary?

[panadero]

Plus in the years driving, he's only needed chains once and you only need to fit one set with 2wd.

4motion also fit one set! (according to the manual)

 

[soulstyledevon]

4motion also fit one set! (according to the manual)

Yeah, probably makes sense as I'm not sure how much drive really goes to the rear wheels anyway. I'm guessing it's similar to a Audi system which throws power to the rear briefly when needed. It's not a true 50/50 split 4wd system.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Without a locking diff as well. IMO it's almost pointless.

 

[Borris]

We also have a 4motion with diff lock and winter tyres. In fact I have just swopped them back to summers because the sun has come out!

If it hadn't been a take it or leave it ex demo Cali I probably wouldn't have even thought about ordering a 4motion. The nearest thing that we have had to treacherous road conditions over the winter, was a bit of ice and a lot of mud. I agree that the tyres are the important issue and also to drive sensibly according to the prevailing conditions or not to drive at all if it's really that bad. However there will come a day on a boggy campsite where I will be happy that we have it. When that happens I will go into super smug mode. However it must be said that for the price of the 4motion and diff locks you could get an awful lot of tow outs. I have now been driving for forty six years and have only been stuck on less that half a dozen occasions, all but one of which were down to my trying to do something too ambitious/stupid. The other was a hidden rabbit hole on a grassy field. If and when we replace this vehicle it probably wont be a 4 motion. After all, it's an extra complication that needs costly servicing.

Some people need the 4motion but I would suggest that most owners don't.

That's my ten penn'orth.

 

[Strong]

Being an experienced off road driver and 4-wheel drive specialist and having owned and driven a number of 4-wheel drive vehicles over my driving career, including many Land Rovers and a VW Touareg (which uses a sophisticated version of 4-Motion, AKA 'Quattro' in Audi parlance), I can say that it's highly unlikely that there will be any situation on a UK road or metalled track where 4WD will make any difference to the security handling or the vehicle safety. In my humble opinion you should not buy a 4-Motion (or any other 4WD system for that matter) because of a perceived risk of adverse driving conditions; your vehicle stability control system will probably cope beyond your driving skills (it does mine) - and if it doesn't cope, it's very unlikely that drive to the rear wheels would help in that situation either.

If you feel however that you will be getting into situations where you'll be having to drive on rough or slippery surfaces regularly, such as muddy trails or steep tracks, that's when 4-Motion would absolutely be beneficial. Drive to the rear wheels as well as the front will enable the delivery of torque to whichever corner it's needed in those situations. What the Cali doesn't have is significant wheel articulation or wading depth, which other 4WD vehicles often have as well as low-range gear boxes and differential locks. So, again, don't expect too much of an improved off-road performance over and above the 2WD version.

Having said all that, why wouldn't you? There are very few downsides to having a 4-Motion though if your budget will stretch to it. The only one I can think of is that 4WD vehicles often come with increased running costs where you don't expect it to. For example, often you will be required to replace all four tyres at a go even if you only need to replace one.

However, the biggest single factor influencing whether you should buy a 4-Motion or not, is that of Hobson's Choice ... if that's all you can find, snap it up!

Apologies in advance if any of this is seen as patronising or lecturing. I hope it helps but, as with all my contributions, please do feel free to ignore me completely!

 

[Velma's Dad]

Having said all that, why wouldn't you? There are very few downsides to having a 4-Motion though if your budget will stretch to it. The only one I can think of is that 4WD vehicles often come with increased running costs where you don't expect it to. For example, often you will be required to replace all four tyres at a go even if you only need to replace one.

Great post Chris (by which of course I mean, one I agree with!)

One other factor though in 4WD-vs-2WD on a Cali (and discussed elsewhere on the forum) can be the impact the extra weight makes on allowable payload, which is already quite limited on the SE/Ocean. Very unlikely to be a problem if there's just two of you touring, but if it's a family plus bikes, loads of camping gear etc etc it can actually get tight.

 

[briwy]

Valid point but how many people know what the payload is and how many take it to a weighbridge to check. We certainly never have.

 

[alter]

For many years in my garage there were just cars and four-wheel drive jeep .... I know their strengths and weaknesses, now my Cali and 'a normal 2wd bought so' because ' "prompt delivery" .. if I had a little patience I would have definitely taken a 4wd, not 'a lot of the price difference, and on certain occasions, and' very security surplus !! I have already 'experienced the bad traction 2wd with the original Continental tires on' grass in a camping .... full of laughs ...

 

[Velma's Dad]

Valid point but how many people know what the payload is and how many take it to a weighbridge to check. We certainly never have.

Tend to agree, although some have pointed to reports of weight checks on the Continent. I just Googled and found a couple of people with MHs saying they had been checked in France and Spain, but my guess would be it's not really prevalent.

Not that driving an overweight vehicle is in any way a good idea of course.

 

[bvddobb]

Valid point but how many people know what the payload is and how many take it to a weighbridge to check. We certainly never have.

We once did... 4 people, 4 bikes on the rack, extra campinggaz bottle, full fresh water tank, full diesel tank, extra tent, gear for a long weekend: 3300 kg...
It was then that we decided to apply for a higher max allowed weight (on the basis of our air suspension). We now have 3250 kg allowed on our certificate.


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[Ksar-el-kebir]

We once did... 4 people, 4 bikes on the rack, extra campinggaz bottle, full fresh water tank, full diesel tank, extra tent, gear for a long weekend: 3300 kg...
It was then that we decided to apply for a higher max allowed weight (on the basis of our air suspension). We now have 3250 kg allowed on our certificate.


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The new Ocean I have is 4motion with a diff lock. Also has all weather tyres, the right size to allow for an original spare.
Not fond of the cold but snow chains are a must. My favourite country to visit is Morocco, plenty snow there in the mountains. Also plenty sandy/stony desert with possible flash floods so am considering a snorkel, useful for dust and water.

 

[westfalia]

The new Ocean I have is 4motion with a diff lock. Also has all weather tyres, the right size to allow for an original spare.
Not fond of the cold but snow chains are a must. My favourite country to visit is Morocco, plenty snow there in the mountains. Also plenty sandy/stony desert with possible flash floods so am considering a snorkel, useful for dust and water.

The snorkel looks good.
Is this what you meant.

 

[Ksar-el-kebir]

The snorkel looks good.
Is this what you meant.View attachment 36617

Yes, that’s the one!

 

[MarkVw2017]

Tyres make a HUGE difference to traction so dont necessary think 4x4 is better. Great video of a 4*4 with summer tyres and a 2wd with winter tyres both in snow. Amazing results!

 

[Steve&Bev]

One of the reasons I added 4WD to my order was that as the Cali. weighs the best part of 3 tonnes the front wheel drive would would always be tending to loose grip when pulling away due to weight transfer towards the rear. This would show as a tendency towards wheel spin which would be greater in the wet or obviously on mud or grass.
With 4WD the front axle would pull & the rear push giving a much more consistent traction in all conditions.

4WD was actually an essential on my criteria which had more reasons than the above one.

The California system is not permanent 4WD like my Defender, you need to spin the front wheels before drive to the rear is engaged. The majority of normal driving in a 4WD Cali is FWD only.

 

[Romke]

The California system is not permanent 4WD like my Defender, you need to spin the front wheels before drive to the rear is engaged. The majority of normal driving in a 4WD Cali is FWD only.

I understand that 10% always goes to the rear wheels. Am I wrong?

 

[MarkVw2017]

I have a Skoda Octavia scout which has the exact same 4 motion system (when the front spin, the rear kick in)

I got it as i work in all manner of environments (farms, building sites, down muddy lanes etc). In the 3 years i have owned it, can honestly say i must have only needed it twice and thats was because i wanted it to.

Maybe in Norway or somewhere that has alot of snow, but in UK, feel better tyres would be a much cheaper AND better option.

.

 

[Velma's Dad]

The California 4-Motion uses a Haldex clutch system so only transfers (some) power to the rear wheels when wheel slip is detected at the front.

This is different from the 'classic' Audi Quattro system which uses a Torsen centre differential which basically powers both axles all of the time.

Sorry for the gross simplification, but's that's about it. In practice both systems do the job you're going to need, unless you're a very serious off-roader, or on a race track.

 

[Paul Karas]

Ha, I was waiting for someone to call me out on that Pod! Actually no, not even Mrs VD would describe me as "dynamic", but here goes anyway...

What I was getting at is that I've noticed for years a prevailing belief that 4WD/AWD confers some magical quality that will make a vehicle stick to the road. Someone I know well was amazed when his Audi Allroad had the temerity to smack him into a barrier on a bend: "...But, but it's got 4-wheel drive!".

A lot of people with 4WDs seem to assume that, as well as the improvement in straight line traction (true, of course), they'll also get more lateral grip, or an improvement in braking. At the same time, the added traction of 4WD can allow faster acceleration in marginal conditions but the driver then needs to be more vigilant, not less.

Here's a very neat article, written by a Canadian (and let's face it they probably do a lot more snow and ice driving than most of us): http://www.wheels.ca/news/does-all-wheel-drive-actually-help-in-winter-driving/

The Canadian post is interesting - it is absolutely right that it's winter tyres that help you stop and even with 4WD they give you loads more grip to make you go too. But for steering, 4WD does help vs a FWD car in many settings. For example - when you are accelerating say to turn right or onto a roundabout you are using your tyre's grip to both turn and accelerate so it can easily become bad at both (normally at the same time). I used to get this in spades when I drove an Alfa 33 in Scotland and still get it on my wife's Volvo (FWD - with winter boots) and my new Cali (FWD, 200HP, all season tyres) - but I don't on my BMW 3 series XDRIVE or my old Subaru legacy.
That said - if money's short - then invest in winter wheels/tyres/chains before 4WD...

 

[ChrisB]

As a response to my original post, I did end up buying a new 150DSG 4 Motion with diff' lock and all season tyres in Late Oct 2017. I got a great deal from VW in Elche for a MY 2018, so I stumped up the extra cash. The vehicle is superb and very sure footed. It performs well on local tracks around the campo where I live. These have the consistency of soap when wet. We were in Taunton in Feb 2018 and got caught in the snowstorm whilst at a campsite in the Quantocks. The vehicle was brilliant and tackled the conditions with ease. However, I will be buying snow chains for future winter visits to the Sierra Nevada, Asturias & Pyrenees. My only regret was that I missed off the heavy duty anti roll bar on my order. By the time I realised, the vehicle was in build. So it's a bit 'soggy' on corners but I can live with that. Fuel consumption is pretty good too. A recent trip to Slovenia & Croatia via the alps returned an average of just over 40mpg fully loaded.

 

[Ksar-el-kebir]

Yes, that’s the one!

 

[Ksar-el-kebir]

The snorkel looks good.
Is this what you meant.View attachment 36617

Soz Westfalia, no not the one but similar. Mine is by Roca Silva of Alsodux, Almería.

 

[Trebor]

As a response to my original post, I did end up buying a new 150DSG 4 Motion with diff' lock and all season tyres in Late Oct 2017. I got a great deal from VW in Elche for a MY 2018, so I stumped up the extra cash. The vehicle is superb and very sure footed. It performs well on local tracks around the campo where I live. These have the consistency of soap when wet. We were in Taunton in Feb 2018 and got caught in the snowstorm whilst at a campsite in the Quantocks. The vehicle was brilliant and tackled the conditions with ease. However, I will be buying snow chains for future winter visits to the Sierra Nevada, Asturias & Pyrenees. My only regret was that I missed off the heavy duty anti roll bar on my order. By the time I realised, the vehicle was in build. So it's a bit 'soggy' on corners but I can live with that. Fuel consumption is pretty good too. A recent trip to Slovenia & Croatia via the alps returned an average of just over 40mpg fully loaded.

Hi Chris B . I had my main dealer fit t32 rear springs to my van £100 . Transformed the handling .

 

[bvddobb]

Tyres make a HUGE difference to traction so dont necessary think 4x4 is better. Great video of a 4*4 with summer tyres and a 2wd with winter tyres both in snow. Amazing results!

Found this a rather stupid test/comparison. A 4x4 on summer tyres on a ski slope, and then: “surprise”: a car on winters performs better than the 4x4 on summers... Amazing results?? DUH!! What does this prove? That it is a good idea to drive winters on snow? That it is a bad idea to drive on a ski slope on summers? Who would be so stupid anyway?
One should compare a 4x4 on winters with a 2x2 on winters, or a 4x4 on winters with a 4x4 on summers. But this comparision is just plain useless...

 

[Velma's Dad]

Found this a rather stupid test/comparison. A 4x4 on summer tyres on a ski slope, and then: “surprise”: a car on winters performs better than the 4x4 on summers... Amazing results?? DUH!! What does this prove? That it is a good idea to drive winters on snow? That it is a bad idea to drive on a ski slope on summers? Who would be so stupid anyway?
One should compare a 4x4 on winters with a 2x2 on winters, or a 4x4 on winters with a 4x4 on summers. But this comparision is just plain useless...

I think you're assuming the average car buyer has a greater understanding of the tyres factor versus the 4WD/AWD factor, than they actually do. I suspect the "surprise" in the vid actually would be a big surprise to many people. That doesn't make them stupid, it's just not the sort of knowledge that's naturally acquired in everyday driving, on UK roads anyway.