Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Elmo3]

We keep going back and forth wondering if we are being a bit premature rejecting the vehicle. Are we being to fussy? But we keep coming back to our use case which is in Ireland and Scotland during the winter. Do we (you) have confidence they'll hold up? I think the resounding conclusion is no?

Please tell me I'm not over reacting and in the same instance tell me if you think I am?

You could use a topper in the winter, which will add additional insulation and warmth, as well as weatherproofing. My concern is summer downpours. You don’t want a topper on that time of year, but the risk of a downpour whilst you’re away from the van or overnight could be a disaster. Point being, this has never needed to be a consideration with previous Cali’s, and shouldn’t be now.

 

[WelshGas]

We keep going back and forth wondering if we are being a bit premature rejecting the vehicle. Are we being to fussy? But we keep coming back to our use case which is in Ireland and Scotland during the winter. Do we (you) have confidence they'll hold up? I think the resounding conclusion is no?

Please tell me I'm not over reacting and in the same instance tell me if you think I am?

The Original canvas single skin bellows also had stitch holes , from the normal stitching method of passing a needle + two threads through the material, but wetting of the material and thread used sealed the holes . I cannot see that being anything other than normal. My original bellows had water ingress through seams etc 1st/2nd time out in wet and windy conditions and none since.
Although the material used is different I very much doubt if the stitching thread is any different.

 

[markbrown83]

You could use a topper in the winter, which will add additional insulation and warmth, as well as weatherproofing. My concern is summer downpours. You don’t want a topper on that time of year, but the risk of a downpour whilst you’re away from the van or overnight could be a disaster. Point being, this has never needed to be a consideration with previous Cali’s, and shouldn’t be now.

Yeah, topper imo isn't the solution.

We were going to be putting 300W of solar on the van to top us up even slightly in the winter. Not to mention, as we'd be camping off grid a lot, if we needed to get away pronto a topper would delay that and we could end up dead. Slight exaggeration but you know what I mean.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

This was one of the contentions early on in this saga. The physical properties of the new bellows being a significant departure from the previous design. The new fabric has a stretchy neoprene like quality. And while some stretch in the main fabric is fine, stretch at the seams could be problematic as the stitch holes can enlarge. A non stretchy strengthening layer at the seam is needed. Perhaps this is what the 3rd layer in the new MV Cali Concept bellows achieves.

Although its not neoprene as it would leak through the fabric by design . Ideally They need to apply a liquid bonded rubber tape over the stitching. Winter wetsuits are blind stitched so the needle does not pass from outside to inside, and then rubber bond applied over the stitching...but cali roof fabric is not thick enough to allow this hence really needs a bonded waterproof seam.

 

[ParachuteMan]

We keep going back and forth wondering if we are being a bit premature rejecting the vehicle. Are we being to fussy? But we keep coming back to our use case which is in Ireland and Scotland during the winter. Do we (you) have confidence they'll hold up? I think the resounding conclusion is no?

Please tell me I'm not over reacting and in the same instance tell me if you think I am?

I don’t think you are overreacting. Everyone will want to use their Cali in different ways and will decide if recurring problems impact their plans. As I suspect is the case with you. Reject, get your money back and look elsewhere. Or keep, invest in a topper and watch for the 05/06S bellows. That will take some faith. I think you are having a hard look at what to do, rather than overreacting

 

[markbrown83]

The Original canvas single skin bellows also had stitch holes , from the normal stitching method of passing a needle + two threads through the material, but wetting of the material and thread used sealed the holes . I cannot see that being anything other than normal. My original bellows had water ingress through seams etc 1st/2nd time out in wet and windy conditions and none since.
Although the material used is different I very much doubt if the stitching thread is any different.

So you maybe think it needs to be weathered in? Do you have a 04S set of bellows?

 

[Elmo3]

Yeah, topper imo isn't the solution.

We were going to be putting 300W of solar on the van to top us up even slightly in the winter. Not to mention, as we'd be camping off grid a lot, if we needed to get away pronto a topper would delay that and we could end up dead. Slight exaggeration but you know what I mean.

Yes, they can be a PITA, especially packing away when wet! TBH, off grid winter camping in Scotland and Ireland sounds best done in a hard top van!

 

[markbrown83]

Yes, they can be a PITA, especially packing away when wet! TBH, off grid winter camping in Scotland and Ireland sounds best done in a hard top van!

Sounds like it was fine prior to the 6.1 Cali

 

[Elmo3]

Sounds like it was fine prior to the 6.1 Cali

Yes, it was. However, if I found myself somewhere like West Cork when it’s blowing old boots, I’d have the roof down.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Great to hear that your roof is not leaking; you must be of the lucky ones.

We will never touch another Cali due to bad VW customer service over the roof corrosion issue. They make promises but never deliver.

It might leak, but not experienced it yet. I still wouldn’t swap it for a 2022 model though.

 

[P600BOO]

If you keep pulling at the seams then I'm afraid it will leak. My April 2023 with the grey outside, cream inside has so far been perfect.
Vehicle is nearly 12 months old and done 16,000 miles. I am the second owner so I checked with VW to see if the bellows had been replaced or if it had been registered as a possible problem. It has not.

 

[markbrown83]

If you keep pulling at the seams then I'm afraid it will leak. My April 2023 with the grey outside, cream inside has so far been perfect.
Vehicle is nearly 12 months old and done 16,000 miles. I am the second owner so I checked with VW to see if the bellows had been replaced or if it had been registered as a possible problem. It has not.

That was the first time I ever so slightly pulled the seam back (today).

Also sounds like you have the bellows that before the massive change...

 

[WelshGas]

So you maybe think it needs to be weathered in? Do you have a 04S set of bellows?

No, I'm going to upgrade to the Multivan based California.

 

[markbrown83]

Yes, it was. However, if I found myself somewhere like West Cork when it’s blowing old boots, I’d have the roof down.

I would too if it was a storm. But they didn't even manage a standard persistent UK shower which is more of a concern. Otherwise, it's not fit to be sold as a 4 birth (2 adults / 2 children), although I don't see why you couldn't have 4 very friendly adults.

 

[WelshGas]

I would too if it was a storm. But they didn't even manage a standard persistent UK shower which is more of a concern. Otherwise, it's not fit to be sold as a 4 birth (2 adults / 2 children), although I don't see why you couldn't have 4 very friendly adults.

The top berth has a weight limit.

 

[Capt_Stanley]

Out of interest if we were using our California roof up and continuous steady rain (bellows soaked) but no leaks what happens if you then have too leave to go home and bring down the roof now soaking wet with a 4 hour drive? Would we end up with a soaking wet mattress? I ask the question as this scenario has not come up for us yet.
By the way we do have leaking bellows and now debating the use of a cover/wrap.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Also sounds like you have the bellows that before the massive change...

Cream inside and dark outside; that's an 03S for sure.

Back to your "weathering in" statement. It's possible. I am intending to do this with mine (as yet hasn't leaked, but not subject to extensive rain either).

In terms of rejection/knee jerk. Your call. I think the problem will be resolved eventually, but no idea how long it'll take. I think it's unlikely VW can walk away from it saying "it's normal" as it's quite clearly not acceptable for the intended purpose. Personally I still don't think there's an alternative to the Cali that works as well, so we'll persevere and if it leaks repeatedly, we'll dig our heels in for a longer term repair.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Out of interest if we were using our California roof up and continuous steady rain (bellows soaked) but no leaks what happens if you then have too leave to go home and bring down the roof now soaking wet with a 4 hour drive? Would we end up with a soaking wet mattress? I ask the question as this scenario has not come up for us yet.
By the way we do have leaking bellows and now debating the use of a cover/wrap.

We've had this scenario with both 03S and 02S and in both cases the mattress stayed dry. There are people on here though that say they get a "wringing out" effect when the drop the roof, so clearly it depends! In practice though, if it dumps water when you drop the roof, it's a failure as it's not reasonable to expect to be able to dry out the bellows before dropping it every time.

 

[markbrown83]

We've had this scenario with both 03S and 02S and in both cases the mattress stayed dry. There are people on here though that say they get a "wringing out" effect when the drop the roof, so clearly it depends! In practice though, if it dumps water when you drop the roof, it's a failure as it's not reasonable to expect to be able to dry out the bellows before dropping it every time.

The morning of departure at the weekend we had to drop it to go home. I did wipe most of the external drops off before doing so but we had some drips from the side of the ledge appear. Nothing major but something to be aware of.

 

[Capt_Stanley]

We keep going back and forth wondering if we are being a bit premature rejecting the vehicle. Are we being to fussy? But we keep coming back to our use case which is in Ireland and Scotland during the winter. Do we (you) have confidence they'll hold up? I think the resounding conclusion is no?

Please tell me I'm not over reacting and in the same instance tell me if you think I am?

What has been the response from your dealership regarding your leaking bellow?

 

[Elmo3]

I would too if it was a storm. But they didn't even manage a standard persistent UK shower which is more of a concern. Otherwise, it's not fit to be sold as a 4 birth (2 adults / 2 children), although I don't see why you couldn't have 4 very friendly adults.

Yes, agreed. As I’ve said, I expect the new Cali to perform at least as well as the old ones in the rain (which didn’t leak or give cause for concern). That seems a perfectly reasonable level of expectation.

 

[markbrown83]

What has been the response from your dealership regarding your leaking bellow?

We are at the very start of rejection process. Just have to see how this goes. We love the vehicle, the spec is perfect. But we just can't rely on the bellows giving any decent amount of protection.

I don't want to wake up in the morning with my phone drenched in water because I left it on the ledge in the poptop. Or come back from a walk and there has been a down poor and my laptop or camera has been wet.

 

[Capt_Stanley]

We are at the very start of rejection process. Just have to see how this goes. We love the vehicle, the spec is perfect. But we just can't rely on the bellows giving any decent amount of protection.

I don't want to wake up in the morning with my phone drenched in water because I left it on the ledge in the poptop. Or come back from a walk and there has been a down poor and my laptop or camera has been wet.

I appreciate it’s a very difficult decision one we’re going through now. We love our California (not the leaks) it ticks so many boxes. We took a long time before deciding and looked at so many other alternatives but we always came back to the California. We really don’t know what to do, what a saga.

 

[ArunAlec]

Out of interest if we were using our California roof up and continuous steady rain (bellows soaked) but no leaks what happens if you then have too leave to go home and bring down the roof now soaking wet with a 4 hour drive? Would we end up with a soaking wet mattress? I ask the question as this scenario has not come up for us yet.
By the way we do have leaking bellows and now debating the use of a cover/wrap.

I used to keep a sheet of polythene to cover the mattress, just in case. Also there is the possibility of the damp canvas damaging the head lining .

 

[markbrown83]

I used to keep a sheet of polythene to cover the mattress, just in case. Also there is the possibility of the damp canvas damaging the head lining .

So many compromises. Ugh.