Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[RockinNRollin]

The irony is I can't see the latest bellows being cheaper, if anything probably the most expensive to date owing to the multi-layer construction. For reasons we can only surmise, the old one has become unavailable (seems more likely than just a design change driving the difference), likely costing VW more but unfortunately isn't performing in the water department. It is, however, performing better in terms of aesthetics, noise, light and thermal properties - it is significantly better than an 02S in all of those areas (speaking from experience).

 

[clarinetbcn]

The irony is I can't see the latest bellows being cheaper, if anything probably the most expensive to date owing to the multi-layer construction. For reasons we can only surmise, the old one has become unavailable (seems more likely than just a design change driving the difference), likely costing VW more but unfortunately isn't performing in the water department. It is, however, performing better in terms of aesthetics, noise, light and thermal properties - it is significantly better than an 02S in all of those areas (speaking from experience).

The material may be more expensive, or not. It would be interesting to see who VW outsourced the manufacturing to, and at what cost. Ever since the T6 missing glove box cover, the T5.1’s missing side protection trim strips, the incredibly tacky plastic cover over the corroding front of the “repaired” pop top resulting in wind noise and glue failure, etc., etc., I can’t think of an instance where VW has made an upgrade that wasn’t actually a cost cutting decision in spite of resulting in poorer performance. The attitude has been, as there is a waiting list, customers will take anything, even though VW has sacrificed its reputation for quality in the process.

 

[Corradobrit]

The material may be more expensive, or not. It would be interesting to see who VW outsourced the manufacturing to, and at what cost. Ever since the T6 missing glove box cover, the T5.1’s missing side protection trim strips, the incredibly tacky plastic cover over the corroding front of the “repaired” pop top resulting in wind noise and glue failure, etc., etc., I can’t think of an instance where VW has made an upgrade that wasn’t actually a cost cutting decision in spite of resulting in poorer performance. The attitude has been, as there is a waiting list, customers will take anything, even though VW has sacrificed its reputation for quality in the process.

You certainly make some good points. Outsource to the lowest third party bidder. That supplier, to save their own development costs, does limited and inadequate testing and we have a recipe for disaster.
Vw appear to be moving away from the sector as evidenced by the downgraded car chassis specced MV California and no Transporter T7 Cali replacement. My guess is that reputation is meaningless to them at this point when IG photoshoot perfection is all certain demographics seem to care about.

 

[P600BOO]

A water head of 7500mm should be more than adequate. This is from the Internet

When buying a tent, you often come across not one, but two specifications for resistance: on the one hand, the heavily stressed tent floor and, on the other, the tent walls, which are subject to less stress. To ensure that the entire tent fabric remains waterproof, you should choose at least 4,000 mmWC for the floor. For the outer shell, on the other hand, a 3,000 water column is also sufficient.

 

[montyburns1982]

A water head of 7500mm should be more than adequate. This is from the Internet

When buying a tent, you often come across not one, but two specifications for resistance: on the one hand, the heavily stressed tent floor and, on the other, the tent walls, which are subject to less stress. To ensure that the entire tent fabric remains waterproof, you should choose at least 4,000 mmWC for the floor. For the outer shell, on the other hand, a 3,000 water column is also sufficient.

My backpacking tent (Nordisk Telemark 2 LW) has a HH of 2000mm and has stood up to absolutely torrential rain. 7500mm is beyond bomb proof.

However, seams are always the weakpoint in any waterproof material, as you've deliberately holed what was previously fully waterproof! Also, zips are another weak point. Both well understood in the world of high tech backpacking tents.

 

[ParachuteMan]

My 2023 03S leaked on the vertical seams as well as the horizontal. I didn’t though experience sieve like leakage to the extent that seats got wet (socks and towels were deployed on on a couple of occasions!).

Didn’t @ParachuteMan in his testing find that Fabsil kept the vertical seams dry, so far?

@Julesverne2000 Hi. Yes, I have now Fabsil'd back, front and sides of my 2023 03S bellows with their fabric waterproofer and polymer seam sealer. I'm testing it in Lancashire over the next 4 days, with 50-60% rain forecast.

PS. I did previously use a non-Fabsil water based seam sealer on the front window seams and in heavy Welsh rain, it prevented ingress for quite a while and even then, only a few drips at the horizontal seam. The Fabsil version seems more robust.

PPS. I made the Fabsil decision knowing that I would probably forgo the Warranty route with all the issues we have been seeing. Brave but foolish ? Whatever, please make up your own mind on this as we are all in different circumstances.

 

[Elmo3]

The only reason I added my comment to this thread was on discovering the bellows was made of material with a 300mm hydrostatic head - though noting this may have changed with the recent fabric. This confirmed to me that VW do not see the bellows as being ‘waterproof’ and hence their advice not to use in high winds and heavy rain. As an owner I do, of course, agree that water shouldn’t be dripping through the seams. My concern however is how watertight the bellows should be expected to be given they‘re not made from waterproof material. My suspicion is that the new fabric was primarily introduced as being more ‘light-proof’ i.e. darker. However, as this made it thicker, the original construction technique was less effective in preventing water ingress. This has been addressed by VW in the latest bellows by a refinement to the seam and, as noted, changes maybe required on all of the seams. From my perspective, if I have a small amount of leakage, I will incline to applying some type of seam sealent to the effected area. This to me, is preferable to replacing a factory installed bellows with one replaced by a local dealer with uncertain experience and quality control.

I’m keeping things simple. My previous 3 Cali’s didn’t leak. I could trust them in wind and rain to keep the van and contents dry. If the new one can’t deliver the same level of performance in the same conditions, it’s defective and not much use to me.

 

[Lakes5]

Massive thanks to @markbrown83 and all the others who are taking the time to post their experiences. You are really helping other people make decisions. Ultimately it will affect every owner of a California if there is a fundamental part (bellows) with no suitable and fit for purpose replacement available. Anyone could damage their bellows at any time and there needs to be a spare part available to replace them in the future. On that basis, VW hopefully can't ignore it forever !

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Massive thanks to @markbrown83 and all the others who are taking the time to post their experiences. You are really helping other people make decisions. Ultimately it will affect every owner of a California if there is a fundamental part (bellows) with no suitable and fit for purpose replacement available. Anyone could damage their bellows at any time and there needs to be a spare part available to replace them in the future. On that basis, VW hopefully can't ignore it forever !

So your vehicle is quoted as "Looking to buy". How has reading this thread affected your decision, if at all??

 

[Lakes5]

So your vehicle is quoted as "Looking to buy". How has reading this thread affected your decision, if at all??

I followed the thread for ages. Then ordered an ocean last Thursday when I thought it had been sorted. So it's disappointing to read the weekend updates but I would rather know the full story. I probably won't get delivery till June.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I followed the thread for ages. Then ordered an ocean last Thursday when I thought it had been sorted. So it's disappointing to read the weekend updates but I would rather know the full story. I probably won't get delivery till June.

Amazing the order book is still open! Good luck on the order.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

15 so far

View attachment 120587

How do I find the link to this survey??

 

[markbrown83]

How do I find the link to this survey??

Leaking Bellows: 04S only survey

OK, so I realise this feels a bit repetitive, but I think so much has changed a new poll is needed. Let's keep it simple this time and please only vote if you have an 04S bellows. To add a bit of context, I would suggest the odd drip we classify as a "pass", and only if it's coming in enough to...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Leaking Bellows: 04S only survey

OK, so I realise this feels a bit repetitive, but I think so much has changed a new poll is needed. Let's keep it simple this time and please only vote if you have an 04S bellows. To add a bit of context, I would suggest the odd drip we classify as a "pass", and only if it's coming in enough to...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

Thanks. 17 votes so far.

There's a host of folks (me included) waiting for stock of 04S and probably only a handful of 03S bellows have so far been replaced with 04S - certainly post 9/Nov.

Then there will be Cali's delivered in Dec, Jan, Feb and Mar. I'm guessing that's about 400.

Why such a low number on the survey!!!

 

[Corradobrit]

Thanks. 17 votes so far.

There's a host of folks (me included) waiting for stock of 04S and probably only a handful of 03S bellows have so far been replaced with 04S - certainly post 9/Nov.

Then there will be Cali's delivered in Dec, Jan, Feb and Mar. I'm guessing that's about 400.

Why such a low number on the survey!!!

Most of those '400' won't know they have a problem.....yet. And you can bet your bottom dollar the dealers are giving them the heads up.

 

[Corradobrit]

*aren't

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Most of those '400' won't know they have a problem.....yet. And you can bet your bottom dollar the dealers are giving them the heads up.

But surely anyone on this forum will have seen the thread and maybe replied inconclusively to the survey. I imagined a majority of Cali owners would on this forum but, maybe not...

 

[Corradobrit]

But surely anyone on this forum will have seen the thread and maybe replied inconclusively to the survey. I imagined a majority of Cali owners would on this forum but, maybe not...

Well there will be a surge of new members this Spring when all these new owners open their pop tops and settle down to a peaceful nights sleep, listing to the pitter patter of rain drops on the aluminium roof....... we all know how this ends with a Google search for leaky Cali bellows.

 

[RockinNRollin]

But surely anyone on this forum will have seen the thread and maybe replied inconclusively to the survey. I imagined a majority of Cali owners would on this forum but, maybe not...

Not necessarily. Unless people are looking to fill their days, I suspect most tend to home in on specific topics they’re interested in or create their own threads. This is quite a specific thread title which I imagine is ignored by the majority of those who don’t have (or don’t realise they have) an issue with their bellows.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Maybe the title of the thread should change to

“2023-2024 T6.1 Californias with Leaking Bellows Fault”

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Maybe the title of the thread should change to

“2023-2024 T6.1 Californias with Leaking Bellows Fault”

“2023-2024 T6.1 Californias with Leaking Pop top roof / Bellows Fault”

I'd never heard of bellows... Other than for my fire!

 

[Barry Chuckle]

I followed the thread for ages. Then ordered an ocean last Thursday when I thought it had been sorted. So it's disappointing to read the weekend updates but I would rather know the full story. I probably won't get delivery till June.

You can buy mine for much less if you wish as I'm trading it in May/June, 6 months old with a built in sprinkler system.....

 

[Elmo3]

You can buy mine for much less if you wish as I'm trading it in May/June, 6 months old with a built in sprinkler system.....

If it leaks, can’t you go down the rejection process?

 

[OxonCalifornia]

I’m keeping things simple. My previous 3 Cali’s didn’t leak. I could trust them in wind and rain to keep the van and contents dry. If the new one can’t deliver the same level of performance in the same conditions, it’s defective and not much use to me.

Although a bit extreme I feel the sentiments are that why do we have the current bellows set up which leaks when the previous version didn’t and never raised a concern To anyone whether VW or customer. We can ponder on VW cost cutting but I’m sure there may well be some very sad reasons why the bellows were changed, why would they and why change what’s not broken is a phrase that comes to mind, but I would put money on a contributory factor involving the Ukraine situation unfortunately.

 

[OxonCalifornia]

I followed the thread for ages. Then ordered an ocean last Thursday when I thought it had been sorted. So it's disappointing to read the weekend updates but I would rather know the full story. I probably won't get delivery till June.

I’m in the same boat as you…ordered last week but I already have a 2022 Cali with perfectly functional and fit for purpose bellows - am I mad or am I able to see the bigger picture?