Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[lohr500]

Of course, everyone is free to make their own decision.
The T6.1 California supplement states:
“Only use water to clean the bellows. Never use household cleaners or impregnating agents”
Whilst the aquatex website talks about the ‘Impregnation process”

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I 100% agree with your findings. Although I am not sure what the "commercially available dishwater" is that VW refer to!

However, I guess my answer to this would be that if the VW bellows were fit for purpose and didn't leak then there would be no need to consider using any treatment.

But as many of us are sadly finding out, they do leak and at the present time VW cannot offer a guaranteed fix to solve the problem.

So our choices are :

• Reject our vans.
• Go through what some would consider a futile and disruptive process of getting the bellows replaced with exactly the same design with no guarantee that the replacement bellows will be any better.
• Don't use our pop top roofs when it is raining whilst we wait for an as yet unknown period for VW to find the solution.
• Use a topper every time rain is forecast until VW find a solution.
• Try a DIY repair to buy time until VW can get their act together. I was advised by Breeze that the process to replace failed bellows is destructive and that the bellows couldn't be reused. If this is the case, then VW shouldn't have any concerns over approving a DIY fix using a waterproofing spray. They have nothing to lose if the bellows are leaking anyway.

If anyone is lucky enough to have a set of 04S bellows that work, then great. Do nothing.
If you have a set that leaks, then you have to make up your own mind what you want to do about it.

All some of us are asking is for VW to accept that :

• There is still a problem.
• They have no guaranteed fix at this point in time.
• On a case by case basis for those affected, they will approve the use of Fabsil/Aqua Tex, recognising that the bellows fitted to affected vans will be worthless anyway after being replaced.

If it ever did end up going to The Small Claims Court or The Motor Ombudsman with an owner challenging VW's decision not to honour a warranty claim due to the DIY application of a waterproofing agent to fix a problem that VW couldn't fix it themselves, then I think I know what the adjudicator's conclusion would be!!
Especially given the growing body of evidence that there is a design or manufacturing problem with this and the previous bellows design.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I 100% agree with your findings. Although I am not sure what the "commercially available dishwater" is that VW refer to!

However, I guess my answer to this would be that if the VW bellows were fit for purpose and didn't leak then there would be no need to consider using any treatment.

But as many of us are sadly finding out, they do leak and at the present time VW cannot offer a guaranteed fix to solve the problem.

So our choices are :

• Reject our vans.
• Go through what some would consider a futile and disruptive process of getting the bellows replaced with exactly the same design with no guarantee that the replacement bellows will be any better.
• Don't use our pop top roofs when it is raining whilst we wait for an as yet unknown period for VW to find the solution.
• Use a topper every time rain is forecast until VW find a solution.
• Try a DIY repair to buy time until VW can get their act together. I was advised by Breeze that the process to replace failed bellows is destructive and that the bellows couldn't be reused. If this is the case, then VW shouldn't have any concerns over approving a DIY fix using a waterproofing spray. They have nothing to lose if the bellows are leaking anyway.

If anyone is lucky enough to have a set of 04S bellows that work, then great. Do nothing.
If you have a set that leaks, then you have to make up your own mind what you want to do about it.

All some of us are asking is for VW to accept that :

• There is still a problem.
• They have no guaranteed fix at this point in time.
• On a case by case basis for those affected, they will approve the use of Fabsil/Aqua Tex, recognising that the bellows fitted to affected vans will be worthless anyway after being replaced.

If it ever did end up going to The Small Claims Court or The Motor Ombudsman with an owner challenging VW's decision not to honour a warranty claim due to the DIY application of a waterproofing agent to fix a problem that VW couldn't fix it themselves, then I think I know what the adjudicator's conclusion would be!!
Especially given the growing body of evidence that there is a design or manufacturing problem with this and the previous bellows design.

Don't disagree with what you are saying but there are other considerations. I doubt it would negate a claim against the bellows per se. However,

- Would the claim not be against the dealer as opposed to VW?
- Small claims procedures I think are now approaching 2 years to get a court date.
- What about collateral damage to the electronics and any soft furnishings, for example the control panel, seats etc but could be anything.
- if it's not reported to your dealer promptly but just treated, how will you subsequently prove it's a manufacturing defect? That could weaken your consumer rights.
- Current process is, fault noticed, report to dealer, dealer says don't use pop top until diagnosed and then fixed. Sealing the bellows DIY style has implications on this.

This has been running since long before 04S bellows where produced and VW Germany has never made a statement that there is a fundamental design limitation with the bellows. It's always been a case by case basis.

 

[Kayleigh]

For anyone considering the use of Fabsil, please be aware of the first aid measures…

 

[lohr500]

Don't disagree with what you are saying but there are other considerations. I doubt it would negate a claim against the bellows per se. However,

- Would the claim not be against the dealer as opposed to VW?
- Small claims procedures I think are now approaching 2 years to get a court date.
- What about collateral damage to the electronics and any soft furnishings, for example the control panel, seats etc but could be anything.
- if it's not reported to your dealer promptly but just treated, how will you subsequently prove it's a manufacturing defect? That could weaken your consumer rights.
- Current process is, fault noticed, report to dealer, dealer says don't use pop top until diagnosed and then fixed. Sealing the bellows DIY style has implications on this.

This has been running since long before 04S bellows where produced and VW Germany has never made a statement that there is a fundamental design limitation with the bellows. It's always been a case by case basis.

All valid points and I agree it isn't straightforward. Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[stationmaster]

A lot of balanced posts

It's already been said many times...

California is a great vehicle, perfect in so many ways.

There is a bit of a leaking issue with the roof on some vans. Not all vans have the issue, and VW is working very hard to get it sorted

In the meantime, if you want to treat your California roof with water proofing stuff, accept that you may be on your own if you need to make a warranty claim.

This may change, and VW may say that using water proofing stuff is ok as a temporary fix as they develop a permanent solution.

In time it will be sorted.

 

[flying banana]

A lot of balanced posts

It's already been said many times...

California is a great vehicle, perfect in so many ways.

There is a bit of a leaking issue with the roof on some vans. Not all vans have the issue, and VW is working very hard to get it sorted

In the meantime, if you want to treat your California roof with water proofing stuff, accept that you may be on your own if you need to make a warranty claim.

This may change, and VW may say that using water proofing stuff is ok as a temporary fix as they develop a permanent solution.

In time it will be sorted.

I reckon they all will leak. Just not been used in anger yet. Disgraceful. Puts me off 'upgrading' 100 %. Im In the lakes through storm Kathleen. Dry as a nuns .... slippers I think

 

[Maidment_Ocean]

Of course, everyone is free to make their own decision.
The T6.1 California supplement states:
“Only use water to clean the bellows. Never use household cleaners or impregnating agents”
Whilst the aquatex website talks about the ‘Impregnation process”

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How would VW know if you did?, think extremely unlikely they are going to send a removed set of Bellows of to the lab for testing.

 

[flying banana]

How would VW know if you did?, think extremely unlikely they are going to send a removed set of Bellows of to the lab for testing.

And if they did,and they still leaked they are really edit from sing. Sh1t

 

[P600BOO]

Of course, everyone is free to make their own decision.
The T6.1 California supplement states:
“Only use water to clean the bellows. Never use household cleaners or impregnating agents”
Whilst the aquatex website talks about the ‘Impregnation process”

View attachment 121566View attachment 121567

That part in the handbook comes under cleaning and they are saying to only use clean water. Never use household cleaning agents or impregnating cleaning agents.
Isabella do market a impregnating cleaning spray that they recommend you use to clean soiled tent material.

 

[RockinNRollin]

That part in the handbook comes under cleaning and they are saying to only use clean water. Never use household cleaning agents or impregnating cleaning agents.
Isabella do market an impregnating cleaning spray that they recommend you use to clean soiled tent material.

Interesting. Might still need arguing potentially but it is at least it’s a hint. Wonder what Adrian would say?

 

[This_one_goes_to_eleven]

Interesting. Might still need arguing potentially but it is at least it’s a hint. Wonder what Adrian would say?

He would say “I’m not technical so I can’t give you clearance to use a waterproofing agent , you need VW technical via a dealer to confirm”

 

[stationmaster]

He would say “I’m not technical so I can’t give you clearance to use a waterproofing agent , you need VW technical via a dealer to confirm”

Yes. Interesting.

And in the instructions/blurb for Aqua Tex they go into detail that cleaning must be done with great care. I even read that children's bubbles can harm awning/tent fabrics

 

[CaliforniaPhil]

When I initially took my Cali in for testing, it leaked badly. I then went through several months of VW wanting it tested again to clarify if it needed new bellows, which I refused to do. When it went in for it's (pre) 9/11 04S bellows, again they talked about testing.

My worry is, the bellows only leak a bit after several hour's, I could treat my bellows and they would be great. If they don't leak anymore VW are going to test them and refuse to change them under warranty.

 

[Elmo3]

How would VW know if you did?, think extremely unlikely they are going to send a removed set of Bellows off to the lab for testing.

As I said, everyone is free to make their own decision.

 

[P600BOO]

When I initially took my Cali in for testing, it leaked badly. I then went through several months of VW wanting it tested again to clarify if it needed new bellows, which I refused to do. When it went in for it's (pre) 9/11 04S bellows, again they talked about testing.

My worry is, the bellows only leak a bit after several hour's, I could treat my bellows and they would be great. If they don't leak anymore VW are going to test them and refuse to change them under warranty.

If you treat the seams and they then dont leak at all why would you want them changed for new bellows that might leak?

 

[lohr500]

After watching this video I am even less concerned that I treated my leaking bellows with Aqua Tex.

Worst case scenario if they start leaking again, or fall apart due to the Aqua Tex eating the material, and VW won't honour the warranty, then I'll buy and fit a replacement set of bellows myself

Meantime, we can use our Cali as intended this season, instead of having to keep the roof closed or putting on a topper at every sign of rain.

 

[Sheffield10]

A lot of balanced posts

It's already been said many times...

California is a great vehicle, perfect in so many ways.

There is a bit of a leaking issue with the roof on some vans. Not all vans have the issue, and VW is working very hard to get it sorted

In the meantime, if you want to treat your California roof with water proofing stuff, accept that you may be on your own if you need to make a warranty claim.

This may change, and VW may say that using water proofing stuff is ok as a temporary fix as they develop a permanent solution.

In time it will be sorted.

I really wish I shared your optimism! Sadly, VW are offering nothing concrete to demonstrate they are serious about developing a fit for purpose bellows as the remedy for all these leakers. In the 9 months since the initial spike in leak reports hit, all they have managed to come up with is 'Foam tape' in horizontal seams and 'additional surface treatment' during manufacturing (water repellent spray?) - which their customers are now QC checking at their own expense and time. They haven't even managed to stop sending dealers the 03S version (my dealer is currently on try #3 to get some 04S delivered for my van). P600BOO has made more progress in a weekend. With production coming to an end shortly, VW have even less incentive to develop a lasting solution. If their contract with their supplier means they can pass on some of the cost of replacing bellows, and the number of owners reporting leaks is moderate compared to the #vans sold, the VW accounting department will keep telling technical to continue kicking the can down the road, and do nothing to conclusively demonstrate that the bellows 'ain't fit for purpose.

 

[CaliforniaPhil]

If you treat the seams and they then dont leak at all why would you want them changed for new bellows that might leak?

But then am I into the yearly task of proofing my bellows. I would rather have bellows as VW intended, with minimum maintenance.

I think I will use the Cali Wrap and see if VW fix the problem in the year and half I have left of my warranty.

 

[stationmaster]

I really wish I shared your optimism! Sadly, VW are offering nothing concrete to demonstrate they are serious about developing a fit for purpose bellows as the remedy for all these leakers. In the 9 months since the initial spike in leak reports hit, all they have managed to come up with is 'Foam tape' in horizontal seams and 'additional surface treatment' during manufacturing (water repellent spray?) - which their customers are now QC checking at their own expense and time. They haven't even managed to stop sending dealers the 03S version (my dealer is currently on try #3 to get some 04S delivered for my van). P600BOO has made more progress in a weekend. With production coming to an end shortly, VW have even less incentive to develop a lasting solution. If their contract with their supplier means they can pass on some of the cost of replacing bellows, and the number of owners reporting leaks is moderate compared to the #vans sold, the VW accounting department will keep telling technical to continue kicking the can down the road, and do nothing to conclusively demonstrate that the bellows 'ain't fit for purpose.

I get it. I also know the issue impacts some really badly, others not so much. Personally, i've had an O3S and O4S van - both leak.

As did most of us, i saved my spare cash for years. I'm not happy.

Of course our patience is wearing thin. Not surprising that we are reaching for a can of silicone spray...and contemplating that if it comes to it we'll simply buy and fit our own bellows.

But, we still love our vans and know that there is nothing to compare with them...made up of millions of parts, it is simply amazing that they work as well as they do

 

[Barry Chuckle]

I really admire the optimism and positive attitude of many on this subject and I sometimes wish I was more like that myself.

But I took the view that nothing has moved on in nearly a year if anything the situation is even worse. I hope I'm wrong, but when the 6.1 comes to the end of its production run I think there could even be less urgency from VW as they no longer have to consider this affecting sales of new Calis.

I do hope I'm wrong as I know like me this camper has been a lifelong dream, but if this were a new £80k convertible car that leaked I can't see many would put up with that for this length of time.

 

[mikefixex]

Can you get a 3rd party set of bellows that are waterproof and get them fitted?

Any idea of costs? Im not sure of the terms of these warranties but at work if the supplier doesn't respond to a warranty claim in a period of time there is a clause tat allows you to get your own repairs done then back charge the supplier the costs.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Can you get a 3rd party set of bellows that are waterproof and get them fitted?

Any idea of costs? Im not sure of the terms of these warranties but at work if the supplier doesn't respond to a warranty claim in a period of time there is a clause tat allows you to get your own repairs done then back charge the supplier the costs.

I've enquired. Got a negative response...

 

[RockinNRollin]

I've enquired. Got a negative response...

however if a dozen people all wanted it with an indication the appetite may grow in time, you may get a different response, bearing in mind it’s not just the new vehicles but also anyone with a T5 on who want a replacement bellows for whatever reason

 

[P600BOO]

I think the wet ting cycle has been debunked. The fabric is synthetic and not cotton based, same for the thread, so there will be little to no water absorption and resulting swelling of the fibres. If the bellows were comparable to a canvas tent then there would be more people saying. It leaked with a first drenching and then the sealed itself. I have vague memories of one report that this happened.

The thread is probably Polyester Cotton, which is widely used on the bellows type fabric. Nylon or 100% Polyester tends to be used on the finer tent fabrics.

 

[OxonCalifornia]

After watching this video I am even less concerned that I treated my leaking bellows with Aqua Tex.

Worst case scenario if they start leaking again, or fall apart due to the Aqua Tex eating the material, and VW won't honour the warranty, then I'll buy and fit a replacement set of bellows myself

Meantime, we can use our Cali as intended this season, instead of having to keep the roof closed or putting on a topper at every sign of rain.

Anyone want to give a précis of what he’s saying and doing ?