Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Fish111111111.]

I have not been on forumn for a while just depressed with the whole saga and a dealership being awquard. So just incase anyone was not aware Adrian has retired, apologies if i am late to the party with this info. The dealership and VW are at loggerheads so been trying to keep out of that, consequentially not been on here, but had to give in to the issue's today after our water pump packed in, need it fixed!

 

[ParachuteMan]

My 05S is being fitted this week by my pragmatic and helpful Dealer service manager. My 03S was a slight leaker, fixed with Fabsil / Aquatex but the rubber seal at the bottom developed a slight tear, so the Service Manager said to replace it under warranty for 'peace of mind'. So I'm watching 05S comments with interest. PS. All my 03S testing was in real rain rather than hosepipe...

Afternoon. My 05S bellows now fitted. Manufacture date 11 Apr 24. No ‘A’ sticker on tag - not sure if that’s significant. Had a quick raise and lower at the dealers to check any obvious faults. None seen. Nor did I see any obvious changes. I’ll have a more detailed look at the weekend. Now waiting for the likely thunderstorms at the end of next week.

 

[SusiBus]

Took delivery of our new Cali yesterday which is fitted with O5S A bellows. The fabric is single skin, dark grey on the outside, coated with something silver/grey on the inside, it looks the business.
The seams generally show no sign of pin holes. The whole thing looks very well made.
BUT !
Because the complete bellows are stretched very taut, the two front corners are showing signs of stress at the base. Light showing through the fabric and a row of holes being evident along the bottom seam.
Off to test them in Cornwall next week.

 

[Corradobrit]

The fabric is single skin

Nope, it's double skinned, as are all the 03S, 04S and 05S. The two layers are bonded. dark on outside, light on the inside. Good luck with the test in the coming days. In my experience there is no correlation between enlarged pinholes (when small) and leaks.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Nope, it's double skinned, as are all the 03S, 04S and 05S. The two layers are bonded. dark on outside, light on the inside. Good luck with the test in the coming days. In my experience there is no correlation between enlarged pinholes (when small) and leaks.

Agreed, I suspect the effect of light through the pinholes makes them appear larger than they really are. Seems very common. Ours has them very much like yours and (so far) hasn't let any water through at all.

 

[ParachuteMan]

Afternoon. My 05S bellows now fitted. Manufacture date 11 Apr 24. No ‘A’ sticker on tag - not sure if that’s significant. Had a quick raise and lower at the dealers to check any obvious faults. None seen. Nor did I see any obvious changes. I’ll have a more detailed look at the weekend. Now waiting for the likely thunderstorms at the end of next week.

Now had a more detailed look at my new 05S bellows. I can see a new black interfacing material between the bellows fabric and the zip seams. I think it was just on the horizontal seams on the 04S (from what I have read here) but it’s on both horizontal and vertical 05S zip seams now. I can’t recall it being on the old 03S bellows.

And it may be my imagination but the gusset covering the outside front and side window zips seems to be wider than before, ie giving greater cover over the zips.

Doubt if I can test it in rain this week but thunderstorms are inevitable, so I’ll watch out for them as a good testing environment

 

[myvanrodney]

Now had a more detailed look at my new 05S bellows. I can see a new black interfacing material between the bellows fabric and the zip seams. I think it was just on the horizontal seams on the 04S (from what I have read here) but it’s on both horizontal and vertical 05S zip seams now. I can’t recall it being on the old 03S bellows.

And it may be my imagination but the gusset covering the outside front and side window zips seems to be wider than before, ie giving greater cover over the zips.

Doubt if I can test it in rain this week but thunderstorms are inevitable, so I’ll watch out for them as a good testing environment

photos?... i could then compare to my 04S..

 

[Dorset daily]

I have just ordered my Aquatex. I will treat the bellows as soon as I get our new van home. It is best applied to clean bellows.

I just take the view that for ten quid I can be happy that the bellows are water proof rather than find out on a trip away that they are not. I don't feel the urge to know if I could have saved ten quid.

We have been told quite categorically by our dealership that vw will not honour the warranty if the bellows are sprayed with aquatex or similar.

 

[Lakes5]

First test in the rain this weekend of my O5S A bellows. Friday night about 6 hours quite heavy rain overnight near Windermere. No drips or leaks at all thankfully. No condensation either. 100% dry on the inside.

It was not windy so that may make a difference but so far I am pleased.

 

[ParachuteMan]

photos?... i could then compare to my 04S..

Yes, I’ll do that in the next day or so. The differences aren’t obvious but i think they are there

 

[Defender90]

We have been told quite categorically by our dealership that vw will not honour the warranty if the bellows are sprayed with aquatex or similar.

Don’t tell them simple as that

 

[ParachuteMan]

We have been told quite categorically by our dealership that vw will not honour the warranty if the bellows are sprayed with aquatex or similar.

Dealers are proving very variable. I have good hearsay evidence that unlike most warranty items, the bellows are disposed of locally, and not returned to VW. So it’s looking like a local decision. Whilst mine wasn’t a leak warranty, (though it did) there was a minor 5p hole in the rubber sealing ring at the bottom. Dealer said it will only get worse and instantly ordered a replacement.

 

[OceanView2023]

Dealers are proving very variable. I have good hearsay evidence that unlike most warranty items, the bellows are disposed of locally, and not returned to VW. So it’s looking like a local decision. Whilst mine wasn’t a leak warranty, (though it did) there was a minor 5p hole in the rubber sealing ring at the bottom. Dealer said it will only get worse and instantly ordered a replacement.

I'm guessing that was VWCV Trafford Park? Great to hear positive comments on them

 

[OxonCalifornia]

First test in the rain this weekend of my O5S A bellows. Friday night about 6 hours quite heavy rain overnight near Windermere. No drips or leaks at all thankfully. No condensation either. 100% dry on the inside.

It was not windy so that may make a difference but so far I am pleased.

View attachment 125136

Now these are the sort of comments we have all been waiting for, so Thankyou..fingers crossed with further testing. I wonder what the difference is between O5S & O5SA?

 

[CaliforniaSeb]

Now these are the sort of comments we have all been waiting for, so Thankyou..fingers crossed with further testing. I wonder what the difference is between O5S & O5SA?

Aquatex

 

[Hawthorn37]

As I was cleaning out the roof channels on my MY22 Ocean with single skin bellows, a couple of thoughts sprung into my head.

First thought - isn’t “
bellowsgate the perfect example of the adage “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”.

Second thought - there’s likely to be one person feeling the impact of bellowsgate worse than the poor owners mopping up puddles. Imagine the scene, Day 1 for a new trainee engineer at the Wolfsburg Cali plant, visiting the canteen. Trainee, “Who’s the sad looking guy (or girl) over there with no one sitting around them?”. Supervisor, “Ah, that’s Otto (or Otti), they’re an engineer. Have they covered the Mark 3 bellows at the engineering training school yet?”.

 

[P600BOO]

We have been told quite categorically by our dealership that vw will not honour the warranty if the bellows are sprayed with aquatex or similar.

Did you ask them why??? And what you are supposed to do if they leak.
Ps. Once the seams are sprayed with Aquatex they do not leak so you would not be making a claim anyway. It dries totally clear, does not smell and unless the dealer spent a lot of money having the fabric analysed they could not tell by just looking at it

We have been told quite categorically by our dealership that vw will not honour the warranty if the bellows are sprayed with aquatex or similar.

 

[P600BOO]

Now these are the sort of comments we have all been waiting for, so Thankyou..fingers crossed with further testing. I wonder what the difference is between O5S & O5SA?

They have probably treated the seams with Aquatex

 

[P600BOO]

First test in the rain this weekend of my O5S A bellows. Friday night about 6 hours quite heavy rain overnight near Windermere. No drips or leaks at all thankfully. No condensation either. 100% dry on the inside.

It was not windy so that may make a difference but so far I am pleased.

View attachment 125136

I would not be surprised if the A on the label denotes Aquatex

 

[Corradobrit]

I would not be surprised if the A on the label denotes Aquatex

'A' versions also leak

 

[From tent to van]

I don’t believe the ‘A’ stands for anything. We had 04S with an A sticker. I think it’s just some sort of quality control sticker for the production of the bellows. My understanding is that they are not water tested when they are made.

 

[RockinNRollin]

As I was cleaning out the roof channels on my MY22 Ocean with single skin bellows, a couple of thoughts sprung into my head.

First thought - isn’t “
bellowsgate the perfect example of the adage “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”.

I think the change was forced due to to supply chain issues, rather than an elected change. It seems a bit coincidental it happened a short while after the conflict in Ukraine erupted (or escalated strictly speaking, after Crimea in 2014). The movement to the 02S from earlier "fabric" bellows seems logical as it meant you could have bedding against the bellows and it would stay dry, but the move to the 03S I think was forced. My guess is a new supplier had to be found, they were given a design brief but either didn't have access to the same materials or for their own manufacturing reasons had to use different materials; clearly R&D was lacking (probably due to immense pressure from VW to get stock flowing PDQ) and from that point they've repeatedly been on the back foot.

I don’t believe the ‘A’ stands for anything. We had 04S with an A sticker. I think it’s just some sort of quality control sticker for the production of the bellows. My understanding is that they are not water tested when they are made.

My guess is as you say, it either represents those that have been sample checked, or they don't adhere very well and half of them fall off.

Did you ask them why??? And what you are supposed to do if they leak.
Ps. Once the seams are sprayed with Aquatex they do not leak so you would not be making a claim anyway. It dries totally clear, does not smell and unless the dealer spent a lot of money having the fabric analysed they could not tell by just looking at it

I think it's pretty straightforward really; pretty much everyone at VW (both dealers and EO) are now saying "if it leaks, bring it in", mirroring pretty much the approach for anything else warranty related. If instead the customer elects to "solve the problem themselves", it is quite clear those affected components are potentially no longer covered by warranty. Now, if VW were being more obtuse with their attitude towards warranty and repairs, I'd be more inclined to kick up a fuss, but as they're being fairly helpful in the main, I don't think their stance is unreasonable.

 

[Hawthorn37]

I think the change was forced due to to supply chain issues, rather than an elected change. It seems a bit coincidental it happened a short while after the conflict in Ukraine erupted (or escalated strictly speaking, after Crimea in 2014). The movement to the 02S from earlier "fabric" bellows seems logical as it meant you could have bedding against the bellows and it would stay dry, but the move to the 03S I think was forced. My guess is a new supplier had to be found, they were given a design brief but either didn't have access to the same materials or for their own manufacturing reasons had to use different materials; clearly R&D was lacking (probably due to immense pressure from VW to get stock flowing PDQ) and from that point they've repeatedly been on the back foot.

My guess is as you say, it either represents those that have been sample checked, or they don't adhere very well and half of them fall off.

I think it's pretty straightforward really; pretty much everyone at VW (both dealers and EO) are now saying "if it leaks, bring it in", mirroring pretty much the approach for anything else warranty related. If instead the customer elects to "solve the problem themselves", it is quite clear those affected components are potentially no longer covered by warranty. Now, if VW were being more obtuse with their attitude towards warranty and repairs, I'd be more inclined to kick up a fuss, but as they're being fairly helpful in the main, I don't think their stance is unreasonable.

I seriously doubt VW moved from single skin to double skin bellows due to supply chain issues. If you need to onboard a new supplier for a part you don’t go and redesign it at the same time - you maintain your design so you can verify it’s like for like build quality. I’ve done plenty of supply chain management, and what you suggest goes against everything in my experience.

 

[RockinNRollin]

I seriously doubt VW moved from single skin to double skin bellows due to supply chain issues. If you need to onboard a new supplier for a part you don’t go and redesign it at the same time - you maintain your design so you can verify it’s like for like build quality. I’ve done plenty of supply chain management, and what you suggest goes against everything in my experience.

Surely that assumes VW hold the design, not just a brief? I would imagine (and I have a lot of supply chain experience, but not in automotive so it might be different) VW would provide a specification rather than a design, say we need a product with a mesh vent front, left and right, a panoramic front, and with these dimensions to fit our bodyshell/roof. We want it waterproof/breathable and these are the acceptable colour ranges. Then the supplier goes away and actually decides the actual technical design, e.g. stitching, material choice etc.. to meet that design brief?

In addition, VW are likely to be commercially savvy; if the design sits with the supply chain partner, they will be liable for all these associated costs rather than VW ("your product hasn't met specification") . . . if VW did the design and therefore were directly liable, you would have thought (?!) they'd be acting more promptly to resolve the issue given they can't pass the costs on to anyone, whereas a comparatively small SCP might instead be desperately trying to fix the issue (which seems evident, 03S, 03S-C, 04S, 05S) but genuinely struggling to make it work.

I don't know . . . it's all speculation without having transparency of what's really going on. Interesting matter for discussion though.

 

[Corradobrit]

Surely that assumes VW hold the design, not just a brief? I would imagine (and I have a lot of supply chain experience, but not in automotive so it might be different) VW would provide a specification rather than a design, say we need a product with a mesh vent front, left and right, a panoramic front, and with these dimensions to fit our bodyshell/roof. We want it waterproof/breathable and these are the acceptable colour ranges. Then the supplier goes away and actually decides the actual technical design, e.g. stitching, material choice etc.. to meet that design brief?

In addition, VW are likely to be commercially savvy; if the design sits with the supply chain partner, they will be liable for all these associated costs rather than VW ("your product hasn't met specification") . . . if VW did the design and therefore were directly liable, you would have thought (?!) they'd be acting more promptly to resolve the issue given they can't pass the costs on to anyone, whereas a comparatively small SCP might instead be desperately trying to fix the issue (which seems evident, 03S, 03S-C, 04S, 05S) but genuinely struggling to make it work.

I don't know . . . it's all speculation without having transparency of what's really going on. Interesting matter for discussion though.

All the evidence available to us supports this hypothesis. VW were apparently looking for a fabric with a high water column rating. Ukraine might have accelerated the process if the original intention was to introduce on the Sharavan and then VW found themselves up the creek without a paddle. Makes no sense to make a drastic change mid model. Little did they know the seam stitching would be its achilies heel.