Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[ArunAlec]

It doesn't cost VW anything, because they are not paying. The Bellows manufacturer, whoever that is, is paying as part of their contract with VW.
Now if VW gave owners a £10 can of Aquatex then they would be paying and could possibly be in conflict, contractually, with the Bellows manufacturer.

Seems the leaking roof scenario is much the same as the leaking side window one where VW continued (maybe still do) to fit side windows that had a design fault.
The faulty drain was pretty easy to identify and would seem to be relatively easy and cheap to fix at the factory but VW did nothing. Their solution was replacement of the whole side window unit.
When I had mine replaced the initial VW Technical department’s guidance to the dealer was to identify the leak by removal of the whole kitchen unit!

 

[mease.]

Disappointed to be having to join this thread.... but I've just got back from a long weekend in Wales and sadly have experienced leaking bellows. This is my first proper outing in my new MY24 Ocean, picked up in July, and certainly the first test of the bellows (05S) in any sort of adverse weather. Annoyingly i didn't see exactly where the water came in from, as was overnight, but the water pooled in the front left corner, above the passenger seat. Sadly it also leaked through from there, so have water marks on the inside fabric above the passenger window also. Very disappointed, and will be putting a call in to the dealer (Breeze Poole) today to report it.

 

[ArunAlec]

Disappointed to be having to join this thread.... but I've just got back from a long weekend in Wales and sadly have experienced leaking bellows. This is my first proper outing in my new MY24 Ocean, picked up in July, and certainly the first test of the bellows (05S) in any sort of adverse weather. Annoyingly i didn't see exactly where the water came in from, as was overnight, but the water pooled in the front left corner, above the passenger seat. Sadly it also leaked through from there, so have water marks on the inside fabric above the passenger window also. Very disappointed, and will be putting a call in to the dealer (Breeze Poole) today to report it.

Looking on the bright side, at least you’ll be looked after by one of better dealerships.

 

[mease.]

Looking on the bright side, at least you’ll be looked after by one of better dealerships.

Thanks for the positive footnote on the situation, i needed that! It's been incredible to join the cali owners club and generally couldn't be happier with my purchase, so just disappointing to have this issue put a bit of a downer on it... appreciate there are what seems to be quite a substantial number of other owners in the same situation though! The concern from this point (with no longterm incentive to actually fix the problem) would be that all they're likely to offer is replacing with different 05S bellows, and hope for the best?

I have to say that unfortunately i didn't have the best time with Breeze in Poole (surprisingly, having gone there from all the positive reports from this forum), i found their communication between ordering and collection really quite poor sadly. So much so that they had to delay the handover less than 24hrs before originally scheduled (when i had already travelled to the area ahead of collection, as i don't live locally). Hopefully they have the opportunity to redeem themselves with this matter!

 

[secret lemonade drinker]

I have a goretex jacket, and it leaks because it is material, your bellows (whatever version) is material and will leak, Cotton Canvas leaks, it becomes more waterproof because whilst leaking the fibres swell closing the gaps, the cotton saturates to the point that most of the water runs off, but it still leaks! Spraying it with whatever is going to waterproof it to the point it no longer breathes then your condensation will make you just as wet. If you like the great outdoors then when it rains you get wet, simples
I live in Cumbria, it rains here a lot!

 

[lohr500]

I have a goretex jacket, and it leaks because it is material, your bellows (whatever version) is material and will leak, Cotton Canvas leaks, it becomes more waterproof because whilst leaking the fibres swell closing the gaps, the cotton saturates to the point that most of the water runs off, but it still leaks! Spraying it with whatever is going to waterproof it to the point it no longer breathes then your condensation will make you just as wet. If you like the great outdoors then when it rains you get wet, simples
I live in Cumbria, it rains here a lot!

Personally, I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation in the 21st Century for a camper pop top to be able to sustain a reasonable amount of rainfall without leaking like a sieve.

If the roof is used in continuous driving wind and rain, then yes, some leakage may well be inevitable.

But in my case, and it would seem many others, we haven't been using our pop top roofs in anything like extreme weather conditions. Just the typical showers you would expect in a British summer!

As far as I am concerned, the issue is 100% NOT with the material. I've never seen a single drip of water coming through the fabric.

The problem is definitely with the seams. But unless I am mistaken, the issues are getting less and less with each iteration of the bellows design. However, until VW apply a seam sealing interlayer or other treatment to those remaining seams that haven't yet been sorted, the reports of leaking bellows will continue.

Most of us who have applied Aquatex, Fabsil, or similar treatments have only done the seam areas, staying clear of the bulk of the fabric.

I'm pleased to report that on the last two trips away in the rain, after using Aquatex, neither myself nor my wife were drowning in our own condensation. The numerous leaks from the seams on our 04S bellows had stopped and we could rest easy knowing that on waking in the morning we wouldn't be faced with pools of water gathering around the sliding hatch area and light switches.

 

[acer]

I have a goretex jacket, and it leaks because it is material, your bellows (whatever version) is material and will leak, Cotton Canvas leaks, it becomes more waterproof because whilst leaking the fibres swell closing the gaps, the cotton saturates to the point that most of the water runs off, but it still leaks! Spraying it with whatever is going to waterproof it to the point it no longer breathes then your condensation will make you just as wet. If you like the great outdoors then when it rains you get wet, simples
I live in Cumbria, it rains here a lot!

My 5.1 has a fabric bellows and doesn't leak.

 

[Corradobrit]

My 5.1 has a fabric bellows and doesn't leak.

Other single skinned bellows do leak too. Its not just restricted to the later double skinned variant.

 

[acer]

Other single skinned bellows do leak too. Its not just restricted to the later double skinned variant.

Except it is being suggested above that all fabric leaks. Just pointing out that ours never has. Perhaps we are just lucky. I hope that our luck doesn't run out with our new T6.1 when it arrives in a few weeks.

 

[Corradobrit]

Except it is being suggested above that all fabric leaks. Just pointing out that ours never has. Perhaps we are just lucky. I hope that our luck doesn't run out with our new T6.1 when it arrives in a few weeks.

The fabric doesn't leak. In fact the hydrostatic head rating is several times higher for the new double skinned fabric vs previous 01S/02S single skinned fabric. The problem is the seam stitching which is aggrevated by the tension put into the bellows by the poptop raising mechanism.

 

[acer]

The fabric doesn't leak. In fact the hydrostatic head rating is several times higher for the new double skinned fabric vs previous 01S/02S single skinned fabric. The problem is the seam stitching which is aggrevated by the tension put into the bellows by the poptop raising mechanism.

So it’s the holes in the fabric, rather than the fabric causing the problem? (I haven’t read that much about this saga…yet!)

 

[Corradobrit]

So it’s the holes in the fabric, rather than the fabric causing the problem? (I haven’t read that much about this saga…yet!)

Correct. Inappropriate thread ie doesn't swell when wet. Needle sizing incorrect, fabric folds in the seams or the absence of a sealing layer (VW seemed to be woring along this line as some of the worst culprits for leakage now have a black membrane layer). The vertical seams lack this and still have tendancy to leak in some cases (05S).

 

[secret lemonade drinker]

Good....that has "stirred" that one up, now the poor baked bean man can have a well deserved rest!

 

[P600BOO]

I have a goretex jacket, and it leaks because it is material, your bellows (whatever version) is material and will leak, Cotton Canvas leaks, it becomes more waterproof because whilst leaking the fibres swell closing the gaps, the cotton saturates to the point that most of the water runs off, but it still leaks! Spraying it with whatever is going to waterproof it to the point it no longer breathes then your condensation will make you just as wet. If you like the great outdoors then when it rains you get wet, simples
I live in Cumbria, it rains here a lot!

You are wrong, my poptop does not leak and has been well water tested this past 6 months. But I did use Aquatex on all seams and zips.

 

[acer]

Good....that has "stirred" that one up, now the poor baked bean man can have a well deserved rest!

“Trying to give it up, but it’s one of those nights”

 

[OxonCalifornia]

Personally, I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation in the 21st Century for a camper pop top to be able to sustain a reasonable amount of rainfall without leaking like a sieve.

If the roof is used in continuous driving wind and rain, then yes, some leakage may well be inevitable.

But in my case, and it would seem many others, we haven't been using our pop top roofs in anything like extreme weather conditions. Just the typical showers you would expect in a British summer!

As far as I am concerned, the issue is 100% NOT with the material. I've never seen a single drip of water coming through the fabric.

The problem is definitely with the seams. But unless I am mistaken, the issues are getting less and less with each iteration of the bellows design. However, until VW apply a seam sealing interlayer or other treatment to those remaining seams that haven't yet been sorted, the reports of leaking bellows will continue.

Most of us who have applied Aquatex, Fabsil, or similar treatments have only done the seam areas, staying clear of the bulk of the fabric.

I'm pleased to report that on the last two trips away in the rain, after using Aquatex, neither myself nor my wife were drowning in our own condensation. The numerous leaks from the seams on our 04S bellows had stopped and we could rest easy knowing that on waking in the morning we wouldn't be faced with pools of water gathering around the sliding hatch area and light switches.

Yep - totally agree..I has a minor leak issue on the front corner seam when collected van last month…aquatexed all 4 immediately and with latest test of having had a night of rain in Yorkshire this weekend no more leaks and my 05S bellows are now dry from the inside. Hopefully job done, using £10 can of Aquatex taking 10 mins with no more anxiety to be able to enjoy everything else the van has to offer. Couldn’t be simpler !

 

[mease.]

Just to update following my conversation with Breeze on this yesterday. Their / VWs understanding & stance is that 05S bellows themselves are fit for purpose and don't leak, but they acknowledge that there are issues with some of these 05S having been misfitted at the factory, causing water to come in. They need to perform their testing on any reporting to be faulty, so am now booked in with them at the end of the week.

 

[OxonCalifornia]

Just to update following my conversation with Breeze on this yesterday. Their / VWs understanding & stance is that 05S bellows themselves are fit for purpose and don't leak, but they acknowledge that there are issues with some of these 05S having been misfitted at the factory, causing water to come in. They need to perform their testing on any reporting to be faulty, so am now booked in with them at the end of the week.

Not sure how you can mis fit an already stitched vertical seam that is the core material, not where fitted at the bottom or top of the vehicle?

 

[CaliforniaSeb]

Not sure how you can mis fit an already stitched vertical seam that is the core material, not where fitted at the bottom or top of the vehicle?

Good job there is strong Breeze to blow away the smell of BS! That must be some party line they are having to tow. They have been leaking through the vertical seams amongst other places. If they were badly fitted why replace the bellows? just fit them correctly.

 

[OxonCalifornia]

Just had call from Rhiannon at VWEO who has now closed my case as all sorted including goodwill gesture so hopefully we can enjoy the van and bellows leakfree from now on. She is so helpful, understanding and is trying her best to work with customers over bellowsgate which she is currently assigned to. Well done VW!

 

[CaliforniaPhil]

My Cali went into Peterbrough for testing on Wednesday. It had 04S dated 13 10 23 fitted in January, which leaked. I was getting ready to argue my case, when they say they don't leak but got a call this morning saying new bellows were being fitted today. I wasn't in a rush to get them swapped but Rhiannon had been on my case to get them sorted.

Will update when I see how the new bellows perform.

 

[MisterLister]

My Cali went into Peterbrough for testing on Wednesday. It had 04S dated 13 10 23 fitted in January, which leaked. I was getting ready to argue my case, when they say they don't leak but got a call this morning saying new bellows were being fitted today. I wasn't in a rush to get them swapped but Rhiannon had been on my case to get them sorted.

Will update when I see how the new bellows perform.

Slight side topic, but how do you find Peterborough for things like this bellows work and servicing? They are the closest centre to me, so interested in your experience.

 

[CaliforniaPhil]

Slight side topic, but how do you find Peterborough for things like this bellows work and servicing? They are the closest centre to me, so interested in your experience.

I'm based in Kettering, I got the van from Peterborough. I would use kettering but they are not a california dealer.

I think the peterborough dealership is OK just like any franchise, geared around profit. Sales were very happy to take my money, promised me a set of rubber matts then ignored me until I gave up. Service centre is OK, as long as your not in a rush. It's hard to get hold of them on the phone. I've only used them for the bellows problem. When you arrange anything, you are dealing with a call centre, not the service centre. So I ended up using email between them and copying Rhiannon to keep everybody updated.

So, normal experience I've got from other dealers like Ford and BMW in the past.

I'm sitting waiting for my van, I'll update my post if they have fitted the bellows upside down.

All looks good. I asked to talk to the fitter; a young lad that was very professional and seemed like he knew what he was doing. He said he was the default fitter for pop tops. Apparently, my old bellows leaked when tested and the new ones are perfect. Hopefully this is end of my bellowsgate.

 

[Corradobrit]

I'm based in Kettering, I got the van from Peterborough. I would use kettering but they are not a california dealer.

I think the peterborough dealership is OK just like any franchise, geared around profit. Sales were very happy to take my money, promised me a set of rubber matts then ignored me until I gave up. Service centre is OK, as long as your not in a rush. It's hard to get hold of them on the phone. I've only used them for the bellows problem. When you arrange anything, you are dealing with a call centre, not the service centre. So I ended up using email between them and copying Rhiannon to keep everybody updated.

So, normal experience I've got from other dealers like Ford and BMW in the past.

I'm sitting waiting for my van, I'll update my post if they have fitted the bellows upside down.

Small world. I grew up just outside Corby. My Dad's 86 and still lives in Middleton. He travels to the Audi dealer in Peterborough for servicing. Obs a different dealership, he's had a mixed experience but doesn't have too many options. The same is probably true for VW Van Centres.

 

[P600BOO]

Just to update following my conversation with Breeze on this yesterday. Their / VWs understanding & stance is that 05S bellows themselves are fit for purpose and don't leak, but they acknowledge that there are issues with some of these 05S having been misfitted at the factory, causing water to come in. They need to perform their testing on any reporting to be faulty, so am now booked in with them at the end of the week.

Sounds like they VW forgot to spray the seams with Aquatex after they fitted it.
I bet a pound to a penny that VW or their bellows manufacturer are now spraying the seams as it has been proven to solve water ingress.