Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Cavvy]

Is this to do with too much tension on the bellows?
Makes sense if a stitched seam is stretched then those needle holes will elongate thus allowing water ingress.

I noticed when raising the roof on the Ocean, the motor whirs away but at the end of the travel it clearly starts to strain as it tensions the fabric.

Perhaps stopping the motor immediately it reaches full travel but before it tensions too much?

Any manual pop ups history of leaking?

 

[Corradobrit]

Any manual pop ups history of leaking?

Plenty, including mine.

 

[sidepod]

Any manual pop ups history of leaking?

Nope.

 

[Corradobrit]

^^^^ He jests.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Update on my 04S - had a night of torrential rain in the Lakes and still nothing coming through. No wind admittedly but there’s no doubt the front of the bellows was getting saturated.

 

[Sheffield10]

Is there any obvious/easy way to ID which bellows are fitted? I was told 05had been fitted but I’m not convinced. No labels anywhere.

If the QC tag is missing from the zipper on the front window, try looking for the part number sticker which is attached to the sleeved plastic reinforcement on the bellows above the driver's door. Easiest to see it by partially elevating the roof and then looking down the top of the sleeve. Text on the sticker should tell you the version, but won't tell you the QC date.

 

[Smily]

Looking for other peoples' experiences with the new double lined pop top roof (the one that is grey outside / cream inside), and any potential solutions to the problem of leaking though the seams and fabric.

In the last week we've had complaints from customers on all four of our March 2023 Oceans that the new style pop tops have leaked, mostly though the seams in heavy rain or constant drizzle. Each of them has the new double lined lined pop top roof (grey outside / cream inside). It's not a problem that we had with our "old style" 2022 vehicles (the ones with the single grey pop top fabric) - I think it might be an issue with the new design.

I've read on the forums that putting the pop tops through a few wet / dry cycles will sort the issue as the fibres tighten up - has anyone experienced this with the new style pop top?

If not, has anyone tried something like a Nikwax application to improve waterproofness?

Just making contact to thank you and others for sharing experiences with leaking roof bellows. We have a 23 reg Cali 6.1 with double lined lined pop top roof (grey outside / cream inside). We experienced a leaking roof and your posts gave us assurances that this could be caused by a design snag. We reached out to our dealer - Breeze Van Centre in Havant who responded very quickly and looked after us very well and replaced our bellows.

 

[GreenMissile]

Just making contact to thank you and others for sharing experiences with leaking roof bellows. We have a 23 reg Cali 6.1 with double lined lined pop top roof (grey outside / cream inside). We experienced a leaking roof and your posts gave us assurances that this could be caused by a design snag. We reached out to our dealer - Breeze Van Centre in Havant who responded very quickly and looked after us very well and replaced our bellows.

Good to hear, have you tested your new bellows and are they water tight? I assume they are 05S that you have fitted.
Interested to know as my 04S post 09/11/23 leak and waiting for 05S to be received and fitted at the dealer.

 

[vanless]

Just making contact to thank you and others for sharing experiences with leaking roof bellows. We have a 23 reg Cali 6.1 with double lined lined pop top roof (grey outside / cream inside). We experienced a leaking roof and your posts gave us assurances that this could be caused by a design snag. We reached out to our dealer - Breeze Van Centre in Havant who responded very quickly and looked after us very well and replaced our bellows.

Have you been able to test your new bellows yet? Interested to hear if it’s actually worth getting them replaced!

 

[Sheffield10]

I've just had my 04S bellows replaced with 05S, they are blue, not that I can see how that could possibly make a difference to their performance. As others have reported, many more of the stitch lines now have a black tape incorporated between the layers of fabric and based on the test I did, there were no leaks through any of these seams. For some reason VW have elected not to use the sealing tape on the vertical corner seams, and sure enough after 15-20 minutes of light sprinker spray, droplets of water started to appear through the stitch holes. Speaking with VW EO yesterday (Rhiannon), VW technical are still not prepared to sanction the use of Aquatex, and despite commenting that no-one would know if I had, she said that the only solution VW had approved was for my van to be transported back to the dealer on a low loader again for a 5th set of bellows! She also commented that where the failure rate on the 04S replacement bellows had been very high, she was down to single figures of owners with leaky 05S, which she thought made it unlikely a 06S variant will be along any time soon as VW will just treat the 05S leakers as manufacturing defects and replace with more 05S. So there you have it, 05S is definitely better but not a certainty, and VW would rather keep blowing £KK's on an uncertain fix over a certain £10 aerosol fix!

 

[SusiBus]

I've just spoken to Riannon who confirmed it was fake news on the forum that VWUK, or any of it's dealers had sanctioned the use of a waterproofing spray. VWUK had spoken to it's big brother in Germany, but they said it would be at the owners risk it there was a subsequent claim on a roof problem, such as a zipper failure.
Question. How would they know a spray had been used, apart from the fact it didn't leak? How could spraying the corners damage a zip. So they prefer to change the bellows, than send a £10 can of spray to the owner to do a DIY job.

SusiBus, owner of O5S bellows, with slight dribbling in the corners problem. Oh yes I'd forgotten, a big leak under the bottom rubber seal.

 

[lohr500]

What VW don't seem to grasp (or dont want to face up to) is that the reported failure rate on the 05S bellows will be low in the early days. Exactly as it was with the last of the 04S designs.

I remember Adrian at the VWEO telling me that the failure rate on the replacement 04S bellows was very low (single digits) when I raised a complaint about the leaking 04S bellows on our March 2024 Cali.

But a few weeks later as more and more 2024 04S bellows got used in anger, the reported failure rate became much higher, to the extent that 05S design was rolled out.

Many of us with 04S leaking bellows pointed out to VW that a significant source of the leaks was from the vertical corner seams.

And yet VW appear to have done nothing to improve those seams with the 05S version.

This one is going to run and run. Meanwhile Isabella are probably very happy with the sales growth on their Aquatex products

 

[GreenMissile]

What VW don't seem to grasp (or dont want to face up to) is that the reported failure rate on the 05S bellows will be low in the early days. Exactly as it was with the last of the 04S designs.

I remember Adrian at the VWEO telling me that the failure rate on the replacement 04S bellows was very low (single digits) when I raised a complaint about the leaking 04S bellows on our March 2024 Cali.

But a few weeks later as more and more 2024 04S bellows got used in anger, the reported failure rate became much higher, to the extent that 05S design was rolled out.

Many of us with 04S leaking bellows pointed out to VW that a significant source of the leaks was from the vertical corner seams.

And yet VW appear to have done nothing to improve those seams with the 05S version.

This one is going to run and run. Meanwhile Isabella are probably very happy with the sales growth on their Aquatex products

Same as me, reported my 04S post 09/11/23 as leaking back in February and had exactly same conversation with Adrian. I left putting mine in to be “officially” recognised as leaking until last week in the hope that future variant would cure the issue. I spoke to Rhiannon this week and was told that so far 5 out of 50 05S have failed to date. They are putting it down to a “bad batch” wish I had their optimism. Mine going in at some point as another warranty item is on back order unconnected to the bellows. Going to wait until that is in before it is done, maybe there will be more successful/unsuccessful reports from members here in the meanwhile

 

[WelshGas]

I've just had my 04S bellows replaced with 05S, they are blue, not that I can see how that could possibly make a difference to their performance. As others have reported, many more of the stitch lines now have a black tape incorporated between the layers of fabric and based on the test I did, there were no leaks through any of these seams. For some reason VW have elected not to use the sealing tape on the vertical corner seams, and sure enough after 15-20 minutes of light sprinker spray, droplets of water started to appear through the stitch holes. Speaking with VW EO yesterday (Rhiannon), VW technical are still not prepared to sanction the use of Aquatex, and despite commenting that no-one would know if I had, she said that the only solution VW had approved was for my van to be transported back to the dealer on a low loader again for a 5th set of bellows! She also commented that where the failure rate on the 04S replacement bellows had been very high, she was down to single figures of owners with leaky 05S, which she thought made it unlikely a 06S variant will be along any time soon as VW will just treat the 05S leakers as manufacturing defects and replace with more 05S. So there you have it, 05S is definitely better but not a certainty, and VW would rather keep blowing £KK's on an uncertain fix over a certain £10 aerosol fix!

It doesn't cost VW anything, because they are not paying. The Bellows manufacturer, whoever that is, is paying as part of their contract with VW.
Now if VW gave owners a £10 can of Aquatex then they would be paying and could possibly be in conflict, contractually, with the Bellows manufacturer.

 

[lohr500]

It doesn't cost VW anything, because they are not paying. The Bellows manufacturer, whoever that is, is paying as part of their contract with VW.
Now if VW gave owners a £10 can of Aquatex then they would be paying and could possibly be in conflict, contractually, with the Bellows manufacturer.

Who knows what contractual obligations the bellows manufacturer has with VW.

If the design authority sits with VW and the manufacturer has manufactured the bellows to the specification provided by VW then would they be liable?

If they signed an indemnity covering all warranty costs associated with a design outside of their control then they must have been crazy.

If they were/are the design authority then they should negotiate with VW to ship a pallet of Aquatex to VW and agree to pay VW an extra £50 or even £100 per claim for VW to send the Aquatex to unhappy customers.

It might save them going into administration and the problem would go away.

In parallel if I was the manufacturer and I held the design authority, I would be spraying the seams on every set of new bellows with Aquatex to solve the problem at source!!!

 

[Corradobrit]

Answer to our prayers? An auto-deploying poptop protector. Extends to create an umbrella over the vehicle... genius

 

[Fish111111111.]

I think all 05S bellows owners need to test the bellows at the earliest oppurtunity and then report the failure, thus the pressure on VW will continue, despite who's paying VW are responsible!

 

[mikefixex]

I am getting my bellows fixed this month upgrade from 04S to 05S.

While I was on the phone to the dealer they said that the bellows were not intended to be 100% waterproof and that some leaking was expected. Apparently there is a technical note circulated to dealers to explain this position to them.

I agree to an extent that any type of bellow probably aren't guaranteed 100% waterproof but I guess how much is acceptable is subjective.,

Any thoughts on how much bellows on previous van models have leaked? Would be a good indication.

 

[Corradobrit]

I am getting my bellows fixed this month upgrade from 04S to 05S.

While I was on the phone to the dealer they said that the bellows were not intended to be 100% waterproof and that some leaking was expected. Apparently there is a technical note circulated to dealers to explain this position to them.

I agree to an extent that any type of bellow probably aren't guaranteed 100% waterproof but I guess how much is acceptable is subjective.,

Any thoughts on how much bellows on previous van models have leaked? Would be a good indication.

The 02S will also leak under far more testing conditions. The problem with the 03S was that it was almost guaranteed to leak once the outer skin is saturated and continue to leak causing potentially catastrophic damage to the interior and electronics. As you say its a matter of degrees. A few drops inside is not the issue. Its the sheer volume from multiple leak points that is making those bellows unfit for purpose. The Cali is marketed as a 4 birth campervan. That means I expect to be able to use both beds except in the most extreme conditions of driving wind and heavy rain. My 03S leaks without any wind forcing the water throught the seams.

 

[acer]

Dipping into this thread from time to time, so sorry if this has been covered.
If I were to buy a new, or recent 6.1 how would I know if I am looking at an 04s or 05s bellows?

 

[Kayleigh]

Dipping into this thread from time to time, so sorry if this has been covered.
If I were to buy a new, or recent 6.1 how would I know if I am looking at an 04s or 05s bellows?

They all look similar from O3S onwards. If new, I would expect the white label to still be hanging inside the bellows. If not, the version number can be found behind a flap in the top right hand corner I believe. Someone will correct me if I’m wrong!
Ultimately, the best check is to see if they leak and start a warranty claim if they do to get a new version installed.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Ultimately, the best check is to see if they leak and start a warranty claim if they do to get a new version installed.

This. They don’t all leak, contrary to what a casual observer may conclude from reading this thread. If it’s in warranty VW will address it if it leaks.

 

[goapplecalifornia]

Second time away with rain and the new 05S bellows seem to be fine so far - no leaks.

 

[CaliforniaSeb]

It doesn't cost VW anything, because they are not paying. The Bellows manufacturer, whoever that is, is paying as part of their contract with VW.
Now if VW gave owners a £10 can of Aquatex then they would be paying and could possibly be in conflict, contractually, with the Bellows manufacturer.

Interestingly, having been advised to RTFM the other day; I did! The manual warns to lower the roof in strong winds and driving rain. So is this VW actually saying that if it is raining hard and the bellows leak that it is not their problem? I know that we all have an expectation that we can have the bellows up in driving rain. We do live in the UK. My guess is that quite a few new owners will have leaking bellows and having read the owners manual concluded that this might be acceptable? They will probably have invested in a topper and not complained to their dealer.

I really do not think VW are overly focused on fixing this as they tool up to produce the new Cali. If you have leaking bellows then a topper or Aquatex will be the way forward. Sadly , relying on VW to fix it, will not.

 

[NessL]

Interestingly, having been advised to RTFM the other day; I did! The manual warns to lower the roof in strong winds and driving rain. So is this VW actually saying that if it is raining hard and the bellows leak that it is not their problem? I know that we all have an expectation that we can have the bellows up in driving rain. We do live in the UK. My guess is that quite a few new owners will have leaking bellows and having read the owners manual concluded that this might be acceptable? They will probably have invested in a topper and not complained to their dealer.

I really do not think VW are overly focused on fixing this as they tool up to produce the new Cali. If you have leaking bellows then a topper or Aquatex will be the way forward. Sadly , relying on VW to fix it, will not.

At the end of the day it’s a tent on the roof of your van. In Cornwall a couple of weeks ago, in driving rain and gusty wind, ours leaked like a seive. We stayed up continuely mopping up with a towel, until the early hours when it stopped raining. We have old style (grey interior) bellows.
When we got home we treated with aquatex to hopefully avoid it happening again. This wont stop us enjoying our van.