Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[babble]

Does this problem apply to the Beach Model?

It applies to all bellows made with the new ultra absorbant porous wet suit material. The only one's that don't leak are the ones that haven't got wet. As soon as they get wet they wick up water and there is nowhere for that water to go after it's saturated than into the van. All vans. Every time.

Honestly, this is like a wierd version if the emperor's New clothes. The idea dealers are needing to test them is hilarious. Imagine for a moment if a tent company made a tent out of this?

 

[babble]

Even more mind-blowing, is that once these bellows get saturated, (holding litres of water) if you then close the roof, they squeeze out the water and it continues to drip into the van.

I've got this great idea. Give us the old bellows back, which were made of a thin single waterproof membrane.

 

[Kayleigh]

I’m not going to go back with all these. Questions to be honest. They work within vw, and they know what’s going on in terms of the bellows issues… but I’ve said (for a reason) numerous times that vw are not going to spend any real money on creating a new bellow or fix for the t6.1 when they have a new Cali coming out next year.
I had my Cali for 4 weeks, and I rejected it right away and got my money back.
I told everyone else to reject it right away, but people were happy to continue using a faulty / not fit for purpose vehicle.
I also got grief fire my decision! I wasn’t a true Cali fan, if I loved the Cali I would have kept it and waited for a fix !
Touché ….. how foolish do those people feel now, they’re probably past their rejection dates now and sleeping in a vehicle surrounded by wet towels - yikes!!
So I apologise if I’m not going out of my way to supply huge amounts of information but there’s a reason for that.

I’m curious…

If you have a friend with the inside track at the heart of VWCV, why did you purchase your California in the first place? The bellows was a known issue when you bought yours and your insider would have known that.

 

[Glenderaterra]

Even more mind-blowing, is that once these bellows get saturated, (holding litres of water) if you then close the roof, they squeeze out the water and it continues to drip into the van.

I've got this great idea. Give us the old bellows back, which were made of a thin single waterproof membrane.

Does anyone know what materials are used to make the new bellows?

 

[Kayleigh]

Does anyone know what materials are used to make the new bellows?

Not exactly sure but Ive heard the word ‘sieve’ mentioned quite a few times!

 

[Viktorgeorge]

My contact works for VW in Germany for many years , what would you like to know about my contact ?

Hello @Joncali2023!! , I would be interested to know, if you are prepared to ask: (i) the full details of the company or companies that make the current bellows for VW; (ii) whether they also made the previous single skin bellows, if not those other company details; and (iii) full details of both the supplier/manufacturer(s) of the previous single skin fabric and the current double fabric.

This is because with the above information, a more forensic case can be made to VW to resolve the problem, perhaps even with assistance from these companies - who will not want to be associated with failure.

By the way, without taking sides, I admire your combative spirit.

 

[JollyGoodShow]

On the Calibord.de forum, which Google translates automatically, there are now reports of people who have received seam-sealed bellows and who say they don’t leak. It’s a very confused picture, but it seems to me that VW are trying to roll out new bellows versions which don’t leak.

It sounds like the picture is further confused because there is no statement from VW on what they are doing, and that it’s not yet clear whether there is a solution or not.

I’m contemplating ordering a new Ocean on Tuesday, as there’s a good offer that expires then. It feels like an acceptable risk to me, at the moment. I’m picking up a “try before you buy” van from Breeze Poole tomorrow and will see - it’s scheduled to be rainy this week.

 

[stationmaster]

On the Calibord.de forum, which Google translates automatically, there are now reports of people who have received seam-sealed bellows and who say they don’t leak. It’s a very confused picture, but it seems to me that VW are trying to roll out new bellows versions which don’t leak.

It sounds like the picture is further confused because there is no statement from VW on what they are doing, and that it’s not yet clear whether there is a solution or not.

I’m contemplating ordering a new Ocean on Tuesday, as there’s a good offer that expires then. It feels like an acceptable risk to me, at the moment. I’m picking up a “try before you buy” van from Breeze Poole tomorrow and will see - it’s scheduled to be rainy this week.

Breeze in Poole are likely the best dealership to purchase from, at any time, but particularly at the moment with the bellows issue, as yet, unresolved.

Very possible that VW will extend, or even improve, the current offers/incentives (beyond the 31st October) - their intention is to assure full order books for the California models until they close down the production lines (sometime next year), that objective cannot be helped by many prospective buyers loosing confidence in the elevation roof equipped California models.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

On the Calibord.de forum, which Google translates automatically, there are now reports of people who have received seam-sealed bellows and who say they don’t leak. It’s a very confused picture, but it seems to me that VW are trying to roll out new bellows versions which don’t leak.

It sounds like the picture is further confused because there is no statement from VW on what they are doing, and that it’s not yet clear whether there is a solution or not.

I’m contemplating ordering a new Ocean on Tuesday, as there’s a good offer that expires then. It feels like an acceptable risk to me, at the moment. I’m picking up a “try before you buy” van from Breeze Poole tomorrow and will see - it’s scheduled to be rainy this week.

This sounds very promising. I expect all will become clear in the next few weeks.

 

[stationmaster]

This sounds very promising. I expect all will become clear in the next few weeks.

First signs of good news perhaps?

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

First signs of good news perhaps?

I hope so of course, but I remain sceptical. Does anyone have a link to the Caliboard thread?

 

[Barry Chuckle]

This sounds very promising. I expect all will become clear in the next few weeks.

I've just looked at that thread for the first time, and the latest posts are from a guy who's just had his 5th set of bellows in the past weeks and they're still leaking so perhaps we're not out of the woods just yet

 

[Corradobrit]

I've just looked at that thread for the first time, and the latest posts are from a guy who's just had his 5th set of bellows in the past weeks and they're still leaking so perhaps we're not out of the woods just yet

That's the Swiss owner I mentioned I presume. The dealer has refused to install another (failing) set

 

[stationmaster]

Hopefully, in time, replacement bellows will be designed and made available. The older design did the job well enough, so there is a potential solution there? It is a worry that the T6.1 is only going to be in production for a short while longer of course...

There is also an additional issue: as we all know, VW van centres can occasionally offer varied levels of proficiency, and fitting bellows, looks to me like a fairly complicated job (to get right anyway). Some of us may prefer our bellows to have been factory fitted?

 

[Kayleigh]

There is also an additional issue: as we all know, VW van centres can occasionally offer varied levels of proficiency, and fitting bellows, looks to me like a fairly complicated job (to get right anyway). Some of us may prefer our bellows to have been factory fitted?

I’m sure the van centres are all getting plenty of practice!

 

[stationmaster]

I’m sure the van centres are all getting plenty of practice!

True.

 

[Betsycalifornia]

I hope so of course, but I remain sceptical. Does anyone have a link to the Caliboard thread?

Erfahrung neuer Faltenbalg T6.1

www.caliboard.de

 

[Barry Chuckle]

That's the Swiss owner I mentioned I presume. The dealer has refused to install another (failing) set

Didn't Einstein say the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and expecting a different result?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hopefully, in time, replacement bellows will be designed and made available. The older design did the job well enough, so there is a potential solution there? It is a worry that the T6.1 is only going to be in production for a short while longer of course...

What about the need to supply spares following the stopping of production?

 

[Kayleigh]

Didn't Einstein say the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and expecting a different result?

I dunno but it feels like Groundhog Day!

 

[stationmaster]

What about the need to supply spares following the stopping of production?

True. In time this will be sorted. Looks to me like VW had intended to improve the design, adding colours, better insulation, and more black out qualities...somehow it went a bit wrong, and here we are now.

 

[ArunAlec]

When encountering the sort of SNAFU situations that large organisations and businesses seem to suffer/embrace, I refer back to a wonderful book. The Dilbert Principle ….. worth a read

 

[RockinNRollin]

True. In time this will be sorted. Looks to me like VW had intended to improve the design, adding colours, better insulation, and more black out qualities...somehow it went a bit wrong, and here we are now.

I think the probable sequence of events was;

1) VW had a long established supplier for bellows, who was either located in, or had direct supply lines to, either Russia, Russian allies or war-torn parts of Ukraine
2) VW then had to identify a new supply chain partner who could produce the bellows
3) The effect wasn't noticeable to consumers immediately owing to stock levels at distribution centres/factory and elsewhere, hence why the problem surfaced around a year ago or so (possibly a longer timescale due to slow output of the factory)
4) New supplier and/or materials provider either had to come up with a new design from scratch, and/or had different materials available - either way, this caused a departure from the existing design
5) Evidently the new design has flaws that may have not been apparent in product development (which was likely to be rushed anyway if it was severance of the existing supply chain that caused the problem in the first place)

I have no evidence for this, just conjecture, but I think it's very unlikely VW would change the material as an "incremental improvement" in a vehicle that sells well and is on final approach for wrap up of production. My guess is their hand was forced, everything was rushed and we're seeing the results of something that hasn't been through the full design and development process being pushed out to consumers.

 

[stationmaster]

When encountering the sort of SNAFU situations that large organisations and businesses seem to suffer/embrace, I refer back to a wonderful book. The Dilbert Principle ….. worth a read

I think the probable sequence of events was;

1) VW had a long established supplier for bellows, who was either located in, or had direct supply lines to, either Russia, Russian allies or war-torn parts of Ukraine
2) VW then had to identify a new supply chain partner who could produce the bellows
3) The effect wasn't noticeable to consumers immediately owing to stock levels at distribution centres/factory and elsewhere, hence why the problem surfaced around a year ago or so (possibly a longer timescale due to slow output of the factory)
4) New supplier and/or materials provider either had to come up with a new design from scratch, and/or had different materials available - either way, this caused a departure from the existing design
5) Evidently the new design has flaws that may have not been apparent in product development (which was likely to be rushed anyway if it was severance of the existing supply chain that caused the problem in the first place)

I have no evidence for this, just conjecture, but I think it's very unlikely VW would change the material as an "incremental improvement" in a vehicle that sells well and is on final approach for wrap up of production. My guess is their hand was forced, everything was rushed and we're seeing the results of something that hasn't been through the full design and development process being pushed out to consumers.

Quite possibly...and here we are now.
As owners of vehicles that have the leaky bellows it is now a personal judgement as to how best navigate our way through the matter - i think in time VW will put a soundly designed/manufactured replacement bellows in place.
One thing for sure is that a customer focused supplying dealership will be helpful.

 

[dspuk]

I think the probable sequence of events was;

1) VW had a long established supplier for bellows, who was either located in, or had direct supply lines to, either Russia, Russian allies or war-torn parts of Ukraine
2) VW then had to identify a new supply chain partner who could produce the bellows
3) The effect wasn't noticeable to consumers immediately owing to stock levels at distribution centres/factory and elsewhere, hence why the problem surfaced around a year ago or so (possibly a longer timescale due to slow output of the factory)
4) New supplier and/or materials provider either had to come up with a new design from scratch, and/or had different materials available - either way, this caused a departure from the existing design
5) Evidently the new design has flaws that may have not been apparent in product development (which was likely to be rushed anyway if it was severance of the existing supply chain that caused the problem in the first place)

I have no evidence for this, just conjecture, but I think it's very unlikely VW would change the material as an "incremental improvement" in a vehicle that sells well and is on final approach for wrap up of production. My guess is their hand was forced, everything was rushed and we're seeing the results of something that hasn't been through the full design and development process being pushed out to consumers.

It's an interesting theory but not really how things work in an OEM. To pickup your points in turn;
1 - Maybe. I don't know who the 1st or second tier suppliers are for VW, just my old employer. Most larger parts for any OEM are made on a JIT basis, so it is possible the actual production site for the bellows is very close to Hannover.
2 - Maybe again but the issue with bellows is directly related to a complete change of design from a single to a double skin as part of the MY23 changes that were implemented in VW in Sept 22. As far as we can see from all the various threads, eventually all new bellows are affected.
3 - See above. It was a full design change to a new type of bellows that was the infliction point. It looks like the main reason for the change was to reduce light in the pop top and increase thermal efficiency. Both guesses, but they are the net effect of the new design.
4 - 1st and 2nd tier suppliers MAY have input into design, but all designs for all parts is led by and comes from VW design centres. Was the same at my old employer. When a part is locked it goes out to tender to a number of suppliers who then compete for the lowest cost. This may have had some bearing on the quality of the bellows, and it's issues, but not usually the design.
5 - Yes to the first part but it is unlikely in my view that the war in Ukraine is the effect on this. Design and parts buy offs are lengthy processes for legal and practical reasons.

I could say that I have a mate in Germany and VW that is telling me all the above, but I'd be lying. I do have some friends in VW UK, but they would not give me any info if I asked (as I would not have done either in my old job) for legal reasons. I do also have a friend in the auto press who I have informed about this and he has a friend in the camper van magazine world, but whether any of them want to upset their relationship with VW is another thing.