Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[stationmaster]

Not necessarily my own view but Playing Devils Advocate ......

Who says its the main purpose?
It's a van that you can camp in. VW could argue its main purpose is transport.

Who says it's a major defect? It doesn't stop you driving the van, it's not safety related so why is it major?

The handbook tells you to shut the roof if there's driving rain ie expect it to leak if there's driving rain & you leave it up as below.

No-one outside VW knows quantity wise how VW view this problem - they may think its one in 1000 vans based on dealer feedback, whereas if you read this forum you might think its 100% of vans. Why would VW warn you not to buy something if in their view there was only a slight risk of there being a problem.

Just comparing with other manufacturers:

Ive had both a lotus & a landrover Defender both with hardtops that leak more than the videos Ive seen of leaking VW roofs. They all do that sir would be typical dealer response.

Even my current Morgan came with a roof that at best could be described as keeping the worst of the water off as long as you are stationary. If you were to query it with a Morgan dealer they would probably express surprise that you even bothered to put the roof up.

Ive got a drive away awning that leaked after the first couple of days use, everyone seems to expect it to leak, bit of seam sealer & its stopped leaking. No-one seemed to think its unreasonable to have to put some sealer on the awning. Put the same tent on top of a van & suddenly it's a disaster.





View attachment 115978

Hmm...whilst this may well be a view held by some, and we are all entitled to hold our views of course, i would comment that this view may be best applied to all previous designs of bellows, but not so much in relation to this most recent redesign.

I've owned VW pop top campers since the 80's and they have all been water tight in all but the most extreme of weather, this is not the case with the bellows/roof we are discussing here.

Importantly, VW recognise there is an issue that requires addressing, and so do many dealerships. So whilst your point is interesting from an academic point of view, i feel it is not really very relevant.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

The manual says to drop the poptop in "strong wind with driving rain" which means it can be left up in rain without wind and not expect an adverse outcome.
Try that with a MY23 and the owner will need to bail or install a bilge pump.

It's extremely rare that it rains and there is no wind; The argument then becomes "strong" or "driving" definitions. bwdik.

I rejected my van beginning of last week and had a call from the dealer principle telling me that there is a new set of bellows which don't leak. I asked him what relevance that had to my Rejection and he said, oh you need to speak to VW.

VW had already told me they reached out to the dealer to process the Rejection. Hasn't gone anywhere.

Looks to me that my Dealer is riding rough-shod over Consumer Rights; It's like a throwback to the bad old days of dodgy used-car salesmen.

I also had the same line from the Sales manager that there are new non-leaky bellows (just before I rejected) yet VW themselves can't clarify what if anything has changed from one set to another with no part number change.

Meanwhile the dealers trot off lines like "none of our customers in the last two weeks have had any problems" as if to imply all is ok. Then the leaking sieves start to appear.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

It's extremely rare that it rains and there is no wind; The argument then becomes "strong" or "driving" definitions. bwdik.

I rejected my van beginning of last week and had a call from the dealer principle telling me that there is a new set of bellows which don't leak. I asked him what relevance that had to my Rejection and he said, oh you need to speak to VW.

VW had already told me they reached out to the dealer to process the Rejection. Hasn't gone anywhere.

Looks to me that my Dealer is riding rough-shod over Consumer Rights; It's like a throwback to the bad old days of dodgy used-car salesmen.

I also had the same line from the Sales manager that there are new non-leaky bellows (just before I rejected) yet VW themselves can't clarify what if anything has changed from one set to another with no part number change.

Meanwhile the dealers trot off lines like "none of our customers in the last two weeks have had any problems" as if to imply all is ok. Then the leaking sieves start to appear.

I assume this ‘new version’ is what’s being fitted to my van at the moment CC. Was told to expect an update today but no word from them whatsoever.

 

[Corradobrit]

It's extremely rare that it rains and there is no wind;

Not sure about that. Depending on geography, rain without wind is quite common. After surviving 2 rain showers with wind, it was some saturating rain without wind (as demonstrated by the lack of bellows movement in the video I posted on YT), which finally convinced me I had a problem.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I assume this ‘new version’ is what’s being fitted to my van at the moment CC. Was told to expect an update today but no word from them whatsoever.

They were sufficiently vague about when this "new new new new" version was or would arrive and tbh I was so taken aback by the fact there was no update on Rejection that it all went a bit over my head.

I have a fear that this whole "new new new" without part number changes is just a way to ship out all the same sieves and have a "story" when those who test / don't put a tent on top or haven't used it yet complain.

Clearly when your new ones fail they can trot out you didn't have the latest version.

Version of the week...

 

[Jimmylondon07]

They were sufficiently vague about when this "new new new new" version was or would arrive and tbh I was so taken aback by the fact there was no update on Rejection that it all went a bit over my head.

I have a fear that this whole "new new new" without part number changes is just a way to ship out all the same sieves and have a "story" when those who test / don't put a tent on top or haven't used it yet complain.

Don’t worry, they cleared that question up for me. I asked what version of bellows they’re fitting and they said ‘The new modified version’. Definitely put my mind at ease.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

Hang on, I just got an email a minute ago to say a new version is available as of today and is now being ordered for me. Thank God they didn’t fit whatever they were going to fit today………

Listen people, if you’re thinking of buying a Cali at the moment I’d question your sanity. If you’re thinking of buying one from Eurovans you’re certifiably insane. Others will match the DTD price.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Hang on, I just got an email a minute ago to say a new version is available as of today and is now being ordered for me. Thank God they didn’t fit whatever they were going to fit today………

Listen people, if you’re buying a Cali at the moment I’d question your sanity. If you’re buying one from Eurovans you’re certifiably insane. Others will match the DTD price.

Why don’t you ask for the part number of this new new new new new version?

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Why don’t you ask for the part number of this new new new new new version?

42

 

[Jimmylondon07]

Why don’t you ask for the part number of this new new new new new version?

They all seem to suffer from a medical condition where they can’t see any questions that require a factual answer. Someone really should check out their water supply and make sure there’s nothing in it.

 

[24OCEAN]

My journey is a bit more complicated

raised an unrelated roof issue in June 2022. Eventually got full roof panel and new bellows in May 2023. This wasn’t fitted right so bellows refitted by another dealer after much debate but accidentally torn hence the latest bellows fitted which are a known design/manufacturing flaw.

I was initially offered market value at the outset but chose a fix as it would have cost me more to get a new Cali of the same spec (and higher finance rate) than the figure they were offering. The fix didn’t work then selling dealer Breeze offered £5K less for them to buy it off me.

I had the vehicle in again locally but they deny knowledge of a bellows leak issue and say the bellows are fitted bettter than the others on sale. The headache and inconvenience goes on. The Ombudsman looking at it.

Not necessarily my own view but Playing Devils Advocate ......

Who says its the main purpose?
It's a van that you can camp in. VW could argue its main purpose is transport.

Who says it's a major defect? It doesn't stop you driving the van, it's not safety related so why is it major?

The handbook tells you to shut the roof if there's driving rain ie expect it to leak if there's driving rain & you leave it up as below.

No-one outside VW knows quantity wise how VW view this problem - they may think its one in 1000 vans based on dealer feedback, whereas if you read this forum you might think its 100% of vans. Why would VW warn you not to buy something if in their view there was only a slight risk of there being a problem.

Just comparing with other manufacturers:

Ive had both a lotus & a landrover Defender both with hardtops that leak more than the videos Ive seen of leaking VW roofs. They all do that sir would be typical dealer response.

Even my current Morgan came with a roof that at best could be described as keeping the worst of the water off as long as you are stationary. If you were to query it with a Morgan dealer they would probably express surprise that you even bothered to put the roof up.

Ive got a drive away awning that leaked after the first couple of days use, everyone seems to expect it to leak, bit of seam sealer & its stopped leaking. No-one seemed to think its unreasonable to have to put some sealer on the awning. Put the same tent on top of a van & suddenly it's a disaster.





View attachment 115978

as an owner and user of two California’s over the past 9 year, none of them leaked. The original bellows on my Coast didn’t leak so I would expect the latest bellows not to leak. Simple to me.

 

[24OCEAN]

It's extremely rare that it rains and there is no wind; The argument then becomes "strong" or "driving" definitions. bwdik.

I rejected my van beginning of last week and had a call from the dealer principle telling me that there is a new set of bellows which don't leak. I asked him what relevance that had to my Rejection and he said, oh you need to speak to VW.

VW had already told me they reached out to the dealer to process the Rejection. Hasn't gone anywhere.

Looks to me that my Dealer is riding rough-shod over Consumer Rights; It's like a throwback to the bad old days of dodgy used-car salesmen.

I also had the same line from the Sales manager that there are new non-leaky bellows (just before I rejected) yet VW themselves can't clarify what if anything has changed from one set to another with no part number change.

Meanwhile the dealers trot off lines like "none of our customers in the last two weeks have had any problems" as if to imply all is ok. Then the leaking sieves start to appear.

Just out of interest - does the Mercedes Marco Polo leak? Maybe VW haven’t learnt from dieselgate.

 

[Kayleigh]

I asked what version of bellows they’re fitting and they said ‘The new modified version’. Definitely put my mind at ease.

Mmm… My cynical side has raised its head again..
Newly modified by who???

 

[Jimmylondon07]

You know as well as I do that I’ll never get an answer on that.

 

[24OCEAN]

Hope it’s not water repellent spray witch would need resealing regularly.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

Not necessarily my own view but Playing Devils Advocate ......

Who says its the main purpose?
It's a van that you can camp in. VW could argue its main purpose is transport.

Who says it's a major defect? It doesn't stop you driving the van, it's not safety related so why is it major?

The handbook tells you to shut the roof if there's driving rain ie expect it to leak if there's driving rain & you leave it up as below.

No-one outside VW knows quantity wise how VW view this problem - they may think its one in 1000 vans based on dealer feedback, whereas if you read this forum you might think its 100% of vans. Why would VW warn you not to buy something if in their view there was only a slight risk of there being a problem.

Just comparing with other manufacturers:

Ive had both a lotus & a landrover Defender both with hardtops that leak more than the videos Ive seen of leaking VW roofs. They all do that sir would be typical dealer response.

Even my current Morgan came with a roof that at best could be described as keeping the worst of the water off as long as you are stationary. If you were to query it with a Morgan dealer they would probably express surprise that you even bothered to put the roof up.

Ive got a drive away awning that leaked after the first couple of days use, everyone seems to expect it to leak, bit of seam sealer & its stopped leaking. No-one seemed to think its unreasonable to have to put some sealer on the awning. Put the same tent on top of a van & suddenly it's a disaster.





View attachment 115978

I do understand you're playing devils advocate, and a very valid reply as these are the sorts of arguments VW/dealers will try and cite. So to me your post was very constructively worded and raised some valid arguments. My take on this would be there is a distinct difference between what a dealer is legally allowed to sell, which clearly is most things other than dangerous, which clearly this bellows issue is not. However despite the numerous caveats in the VW manuals, if you rejected it and it went to litigation a court would take a view of what one could 'reasonably expect'. I would hazard a guess that most rational people would expect that a camper with a purpose pop top would expect it to be watertight in the rain. Rain never comes down perfectly horizontally so it's inevitable the bellows will get wet. To expect a family of 4 to sleep inside the California everytime it rains with wind, in a 4 berth vehicle is completely unrealistic. Your point about the Morgan, I feel is different as most people who are familar with that vehicle know it's generally an specialist car and unlikely to be used as a daily driver and probably only taken out in clement weather, neither of which are applicable to the Cali.

 

[Kayleigh]

Hope it’s not water repellent spray witch would need resealing regularly.

That’s what I was leading to with my previous comment regarding who will do the modification.
New bellows = same bellows plus a can of fabsil spray for the dealer.

 

[bullibuskombi]

Not necessarily my own view but Playing Devils Advocate ......

Who says its the main purpose?
It's a van that you can camp in. VW could argue its main purpose is transport.

Who says it's a major defect? It doesn't stop you driving the van, it's not safety related so why is it major?

The handbook tells you to shut the roof if there's driving rain ie expect it to leak if there's driving rain & you leave it up as below.

No-one outside VW knows quantity wise how VW view this problem - they may think its one in 1000 vans based on dealer feedback, whereas if you read this forum you might think its 100% of vans. Why would VW warn you not to buy something if in their view there was only a slight risk of there being a problem.

Just comparing with other manufacturers:

Ive had both a lotus & a landrover Defender both with hardtops that leak more than the videos Ive seen of leaking VW roofs. They all do that sir would be typical dealer response.

Even my current Morgan came with a roof that at best could be described as keeping the worst of the water off as long as you are stationary. If you were to query it with a Morgan dealer they would probably express surprise that you even bothered to put the roof up.

Ive got a drive away awning that leaked after the first couple of days use, everyone seems to expect it to leak, bit of seam sealer & its stopped leaking. No-one seemed to think its unreasonable to have to put some sealer on the awning. Put the same tent on top of a van & suddenly it's a disaster.





View attachment 115978

My family has had VW campers since 1960, this is the only one to have leaked and that was in a light shower.
It is sold as a 4 berth camper, if you cannot have the roof open in moderate showers, it is not able to sleep 4 and therefore not fit for advertised purpose.
I also have an awning, bone dry at all times as in my 15 year old Asda popup tent that cost me £25.

 

[andyinluton]

I do understand you're playing devils advocate, and a very valid reply as these are the sorts of arguments VW/dealers will try and cite. So to me your post was very constructively worded and raised some valid arguments. My take on this would be there is a distinct difference between what a dealer is legally allowed to sell, which clearly is most things other than dangerous, which clearly this bellows issue is not. However despite the numerous caveats in the VW manuals, if you rejected it and it went to litigation a court would take a view of what one could 'reasonably expect'. I would hazard a guess that most rational people would expect that a camper with a purpose pop top would expect it to be watertight in the rain. Rain never comes down perfectly horizontally so it's inevitable the bellows will get wet. To expect a family of 4 to sleep inside the California everytime it rains with wind, in a 4 berth vehicle is completely unrealistic. Your point about the Morgan, I feel is different as most people who are familar with that vehicle know it's generally an specialist car and unlikely to be used as a daily driver and probably only taken out in clement weather, neither of which are applicable to the Cali.

I agree with you.

The Morgan was a bad example - our new at the time BMW mini Convertible would have been a better one, the manual states "After washing the convertible top three to five times, it should be treated with a waterproofing agent. " if you didn't do it, you got water through the seams & the main fabric would get saturated & be wet to the touch on the inside. Exactly the same as the appears to be the problem with the bellows.

The mini branded waterproofing kit included a hydrophobic coating which just makes the water bead & run straight off rather than soak in.

 

[Corradobrit]

I agree with you.

The Morgan was a bad example - our new at the time BMW mini Convertible would have been a better one, the manual states "After washing the convertible top three to five times, it should be treated with a waterproofing agent. " if you didn't do it, you got water through the seams & the main fabric would get saturated & be wet to the touch on the inside. Exactly the same as the appears to be the problem with the bellows.

The mini branded waterproofing kit included a hydrophobic coating which just makes the water bead & run straight off rather than soak in.

The fabric itself is not the problem. In fact its a lot more water resistant than its single skin predecessor.The water is entering through the seams.
The material on the mini and other convertible tops is rigid and not stretchy like the bellows and any application of a waterproofer may not have a longlasting effect.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

I agree with you.

The Morgan was a bad example - our new at the time BMW mini Convertible would have been a better one, the manual states "After washing the convertible top three to five times, it should be treated with a waterproofing agent. " if you didn't do it, you got water through the seams & the main fabric would get saturated & be wet to the touch on the inside. Exactly the same as the appears to be the problem with the bellows.

The mini branded waterproofing kit included a hydrophobic coating which just makes the water bead & run straight off rather than soak in.

Do love the idea of a Morgan though a beautiful car, you can hopefully use it to drive across Europe if you make it into the Champions League next season !!!!

 

[Viktorgeorge]

The fabric itself is not the problem. In fact its a lot more water resistant than its single skin predecessor.The water is entering through the seams.
The material on the mini and other convertible tops is rigid and not stretchy like the bellows and any application of a waterproofer may not have a longlasting effect.

I am not sure you a right on your first sentence, and I think the balance of what you say proves my point.

The traditional sewn method of tent fabrication relies, as you go on to describe, on “rigid and not stretchy” material (in combination probably with a slightly water swelling thread). Now VW are using a “stretchy” material the joints need to be welded or otherwise waterproofed, otherwise they need to change the material.

The problem increases because the fabric (from @Kayleigh ‘s forensic investigation) absorbs a head of water which will seek out an exit through gravity (unlike the previous fabric that I have which does not absorb) increasing water ingress stress on the lower joints.

You may ask why should I care, as I have the old bellows? Apart from a natural instinct (as a retired Architect) to try to understand problems, i anyway want to keep my California till I no longer drive and, should I need new bellows, I really don’t want the one they currently supply.

 

[andyinluton]

The fabric itself is not the problem. In fact its a lot more water resistant than its single skin predecessor.The water is entering through the seams.

But in your post number 686 you said " It requires steady saturating rain for best effect. Gotta get the outer layer completed sodden and continued rain to allow the water to wick through the seams."

If the outer layer is getting sodden it's not waterproof. A coat of something hydrophobic would make the water bead & run off to stop it getting sodden the first place. Others have mentioned the bellows changing colour thats due to the water soaking into the material, nothing to do with the seams. A spray of fabsil or similar may well solve all the problems......

 

[JollyGoodShow]

But in your post number 686 you said " It requires steady saturating rain for best effect. Gotta get the outer layer completed sodden and continued rain to allow the water to wick through the seams."

If the outer layer is getting sodden it's not waterproof. A coat of something hydrophobic would make the water bead & run off to stop it getting sodden the first place. Others have mentioned the bellows changing colour thats due to the water soaking into the material, nothing to do with the seams. A spray of fabsil or similar may well solve all the problems......

On the German forum, someone with brand new bellows which don’t leak posted that the outer surface was hugely hydrophilic (at least, that’s what I interpreted it to say). So it may be that the VW solution is to treat the fabric with something that causes water to bead.

 

[RockinNRollin]

FWIW, my leaky bellows never appeared to get saturated like a wet cloth, yet still let water through the seams.