Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Nik_campervan]

Old bellows a cotton/canvas, thread also likely contains cotton. Cotton/canvas will upon absorbing moisture swell sufficiently to fill the hole made by the larger needle & thread. Manmade fibres generally dont take on moisture (think goretex jacket or synthetic tent flysheet on tent) both will naturally leak through the stiched seams. If the 2023 canvas and stiching does not swell with moisture it will always leak through the stiching without seam sealant / tape sealing.

Suggests the 2023 fabric and thread used to stich are of incorrect material for intended purpose.

 

[Kayleigh]

Suggests the 2023 fabric and thread used to stich are of incorrect material for intended purpose.

That’s pretty much what I said a few months ago after my tests. It could also be related to the needle used.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

That’s pretty much what I said a few months ago after my tests. It could also be related to the needle used.

@Kayleigh and @Nik_campervan are I think correct and I am basing this on advice from my wife who is an expert on machining fabric.

The problem with taping joints is that you are still left with the effective head of water that the now absorbent new fabric creates (and the old fabric did not). Once the fabric has absorbed water the latter will search by gravity a route out. Adding taping and/or sealant at the stitching and joints may prove only a temporary expedient.

The only proper solution will be to entirely change the bellows to a non absorbent fabric unless perhaps the current new material can be welded/jointed like a wetsuit.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

Yes I believe they use a small water pistol on the <30 day tests and a proper hose on the >30 days tests. My heart really goes out to you Jimmy, you must be sick to the teeth of the whole sorry affair.

My latest is that they’ve had my van for 7 days now and just got word from Technical to fit ‘the new bellows’ which they will do tomorrow. No idea where these new bellows magically appeared from (thought they may have been ripped off CaliforniaCylus’ van ) but at least it’ll be closure, it either resolves it or there can be no argument about a rejection.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

My latest is that they’ve had my van for 7 days now and just got word from Technical to fit ‘the new bellows’ which they will do tomorrow. No idea where these new bellows magically appeared from (thought they may have been ripped off CaliforniaCylus’ van ) but at least it’ll be closure, it either resolves it or there can be no argument about a rejection.

Please let us know how you get on Jimmy, I really hope it solves your problems and you can start to enjoy it. That said I wouldn't put my house on it not leaking though!!!

 

[Kayleigh]

My latest is that they’ve had my van for 7 days now and just got word from Technical to fit ‘the new bellows’ which they will do tomorrow. No idea where these new bellows magically appeared from (thought they may have been ripped off CaliforniaCylus’ van ) but at least it’ll be closure, it either resolves it or there can be no argument about a rejection.

That’s the magic of EV!

 

[24OCEAN]

Mine is currently allocated to the Motor Ombudsman. VW Executive Office have broken the silence and admit that some California bellows are leaking and will be replaced with modified bellows. No definition of what modification means so awaiting clarification. Despite numerous emails they still misunderstand my problem - again awaiting an appropriate reply. I had my t6.1 bellows replaced with the new ones which are faulty….

 

[Hueyhew]

Ultimately, if the warranty route proves fruitless in the medium term, there's always the Consumer Rights Act (if you've bought it, not leased or financed it as that probably complicates matters). Key excerpts:

• Fit for purpose: The goods should be fit for the purpose they are supplied for, as well as any specific purpose you made known to the retailer before you agreed to buy the goods.
• As described: The goods supplied must match any description given to you, or any models or samples shown to you at the time of purchase.
• Satisfactory quality: Goods shouldn't be faulty or damaged when you receive them. You should ask what a reasonable person would consider satisfactory for the goods in question. For example, bargain-bucket products won’t be held to as high standards as luxury goods.

"Beyond the first 30 days of ownership you're entitled to a full or partial refund instead of a repair or replacement if any of the following are true:

• an attempt at repair or replacement has failed
• the cost of the repair or replacement is disproportionate to the value of the goods or digital content
• a repair or replacement is impossible
• a repair or replacement will cause you significant inconvenience
• the repair or replacement will take an unreasonably long amount of time.

If a repair or replacement is not possible, or the attempt at repair fails, or the first replacement also turns out to be defective, you can reject the goods for a full refund."

Plenty of scope here for demanding an effective repair under the Act; I can't see how VW could ever legitimately claim the leaking bellows are both "Fit for Purpose" and "Satisfactory Quality". Of course, the outcome from that would be either a repair (currently not effective, but we're all hoping that will change) or a refund (full or partial, depending on circumstances). For as long as the value of nearly new vans are so close to brand new vehicles, it seems likely VW would almost happily refund and just sell the van to an unsuspecting customer (after all, there are loads of Calis out there and it does seem to only be a limited noise about the bellows unless dealers are lying to their customers when they say it's the first case they've had). Then again, if used values drop, that might just mean the "partial refund" becomes less generous.

There is still the option of a home-repair (i.e. seam sealer) but I am loathed to do anything that a) would invalidate the warranty and b) make an effort where it should be VW resolving the problem.

It’s worth noting the repair is one chance only, if not fixed first time you can still reject. Also check your breakdown cover or links to associations and clubs as they tend to have free legal advice lines and can help you understand the legal terms provide guidance on drafting a letter if needed to the dealer /VW.

 

[24OCEAN]

Unfortunately the VW Dealer - Breeze doesn’t see it that way.

 

[ArunAlec]

Unfortunately @breeze doesn’t see it that way.

”@breeze”? The user “@breeze” has been active since 2014….. do you mean the dealer Breeze?

 

[24OCEAN]

”@breeze”? The user “@breeze” has been active since 2014….. do you mean the dealer Breeze?

Yes my mistake Breeze the VW dealership

 

[24OCEAN]

Corrected

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Unfortunately the VW Dealer - Breeze doesn’t see it that way.

How do they see it?

 

[24OCEAN]

Radio silence

 

[stationmaster]

Radio silence

I guess it is difficult to know how to play things at the moment, it appears to be an unfolding situation...both for owners, and for dealerships?

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Radio silence

Perhaps you should give them a call? They were superb with the handling of my leaking bellows issue.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

Is there anything in consumer law about selling brand new goods which are known to have a severe defect (in relation to their purpose) and not mentioning it at point of sale?

Seems quite a few people are going backwards and forwards on rejections and the CRA but surely there is something in law that prevents businesses from selling obviously faulty goods in the first place? That’s basically what’s happening right now and the hope is you’ll notice the problem after 30 days so it becomes your issue. That doesn’t seem right to me….

 

[andyinluton]

Is there anything in consumer law about selling brand new goods which are known to have a severe defect (in relation to their purpose) and not mentioning it at point of sale?

Nothing unless the goods are dangerous.

Just reading the VW responses further up the page shows that VW now admit some roofs leak, on that basis they will continue to sell vans & just say you are unlucky if yours leaks.

 

[Kayleigh]

Nothing unless the goods are dangerous.

Just reading the VW responses further up the page shows that VW now admit some roofs leak, on that basis they will continue to sell vans & just say you are unlucky if yours leaks.

@andyinluton Legally, does that mean they have to advise you that there is a potential major defect that affects the main purpose of the vehicle at the point of order/collection?

 

[bullibuskombi]

The worrying thing is the sticker hints that they have been through quality control and testing. If they are passing, what test are vw doing.
After hearing that vw are asking dealers to leave them out in the rain. I don't want to book mine in for new bellows, the amount of rain that could come into my Cali over night would be devastating. Seats, electrics etc and problems down the line when warranty is finished.

Totally agree, had a call with VW executive team today expressing my concerns on this and potential damage from leaks that the dealer will not then acknowledge or fix.
Ridiculous that I am expected to return the van to the dealer again after they didn't have rain to verify a leak that I have provided photos off. They had it for 2 weeks and did nothing!
VW are aware of the issue and want me to prove it affects my van.

 

[Kayleigh]

VW are aware of the issue and want me to prove it affects my van.

Bonkers!!!

 

[andyinluton]

@andyinluton Legally, does that mean they have to advise you that there is a potential major defect that affects the main purpose of the vehicle at the point of order/collection?

Not necessarily my own view but Playing Devils Advocate ......

Who says its the main purpose?
It's a van that you can camp in. VW could argue its main purpose is transport.

Who says it's a major defect? It doesn't stop you driving the van, it's not safety related so why is it major?

The handbook tells you to shut the roof if there's driving rain ie expect it to leak if there's driving rain & you leave it up as below.

No-one outside VW knows quantity wise how VW view this problem - they may think its one in 1000 vans based on dealer feedback, whereas if you read this forum you might think its 100% of vans. Why would VW warn you not to buy something if in their view there was only a slight risk of there being a problem.

Just comparing with other manufacturers:

Ive had both a lotus & a landrover Defender both with hardtops that leak more than the videos Ive seen of leaking VW roofs. They all do that sir would be typical dealer response.

Even my current Morgan came with a roof that at best could be described as keeping the worst of the water off as long as you are stationary. If you were to query it with a Morgan dealer they would probably express surprise that you even bothered to put the roof up.

Ive got a drive away awning that leaked after the first couple of days use, everyone seems to expect it to leak, bit of seam sealer & its stopped leaking. No-one seemed to think its unreasonable to have to put some sealer on the awning. Put the same tent on top of a van & suddenly it's a disaster.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

Not necessarily my own view but Playing Devils Advocate ......

Who says its the main purpose?
It's a van that you can camp in. VW could argue its main purpose is transport.

Who says it's a major defect? It doesn't stop you driving the van, it's not safety related so why is it major?

The handbook tells you to shut the roof if there's driving rain ie expect it to leak if there's driving rain & you leave it up as below.

No-one outside VW knows quantity wise how VW view this problem - they may think its one in 1000 vans based on dealer feedback, whereas if you read this forum you might think its 100% of vans. Why would VW warn you not to buy something if in their view there was only a slight risk of there being a problem.

Just comparing with other manufacturers:

Ive had both a lotus & a landrover Defender both with hardtops that leak more than the videos Ive seen of leaking VW roofs. They all do that sir would be typical dealer response.

Even my current Morgan came with a roof that at best could be described as keeping the worst of the water off as long as you are stationary. If you were to query it with a Morgan dealer they would probably express surprise that you even bothered to put the roof up.

Ive got a drive away awning that leaked after the first couple of days use, everyone seems to expect it to leak, bit of seam sealer & its stopped leaking. No-one seemed to think its unreasonable to have to put some sealer on the awning. Put the same tent on top of a van & suddenly it's a disaster.





View attachment 115978

The Ocean and Beach are both classified as Motor Caravans on their V5Cs and taxed as motor caravans, I’d argue that’s a pretty clear indication that they’re intended for sleeping in and not just for transport. The Beach Tour is a little less clear cut in that regard.

 

[Corradobrit]

Not necessarily my own view but Playing Devils Advocate ......

Who says its the main purpose?
It's a van that you can camp in. VW could argue its main purpose is transport.

Who says it's a major defect? It doesn't stop you driving the van, it's not safety related so why is it major?

The handbook tells you to shut the roof if there's driving rain ie expect it to leak if there's driving rain & you leave it up as below.

No-one outside VW knows quantity wise how VW view this problem - they may think its one in 1000 vans based on dealer feedback, whereas if you read this forum you might think its 100% of vans. Why would VW warn you not to buy something if in their view there was only a slight risk of there being a problem.

Just comparing with other manufacturers:

Ive had both a lotus & a landrover Defender both with hardtops that leak more than the videos Ive seen of leaking VW roofs. They all do that sir would be typical dealer response.

Even my current Morgan came with a roof that at best could be described as keeping the worst of the water off as long as you are stationary. If you were to query it with a Morgan dealer they would probably express surprise that you even bothered to put the roof up.

Ive got a drive away awning that leaked after the first couple of days use, everyone seems to expect it to leak, bit of seam sealer & its stopped leaking. No-one seemed to think its unreasonable to have to put some sealer on the awning. Put the same tent on top of a van & suddenly it's a disaster.





View attachment 115978

The manual says to drop the poptop in "strong wind with driving rain" which means it can be left up in rain without wind and not expect an adverse outcome.
Try that with a MY23 and the owner will need to bail or install a bilge pump.

 

[andyinluton]

The manual says to drop the poptop in "strong wind with driving rain" which means it can be left up in rain without wind and not expect an adverse outcome.
Try that with a MY23 and the owner will need to bail or install a bilge pump.

I have & don't need a bilge pump.......