Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Kayleigh]

But in your post number 686 you said " It requires steady saturating rain for best effect. Gotta get the outer layer completed sodden and continued rain to allow the water to wick through the seams."

If the outer layer is getting sodden it's not waterproof. A coat of something hydrophobic would make the water bead & run off to stop it getting sodden the first place. Others have mentioned the bellows changing colour thats due to the water soaking into the material, nothing to do with the seams. A spray of fabsil or similar may well solve all the problems......

The fabric itself does appear to have some kind of hydrophobic coating already. When it first gets wet, you look at it and think it’s impressive how the water just beads off. Unfortunately, it doesn’t stay like that and then starts to soak up the water.

I think the Achilles’ heel of the bellows (even if using fabsil or similar) will be the arched windows.

1) The arched window zips are already covered by a flap, which is normal practice for non-taped zips on tents, however, this is the first place the bellows will leak. Water runs down the zip and drips form at the corners. This is a seam leak as shown in the video:

2) The lower seam of the windows leak once the fabric is overwhelmed by the volume of water. This is a saturation leak.

So the problem is twofold. Has anyone seen any other tent products manufactured from this bonded two layer fabric?

My Goretex Pro jacket for example is a multilayer fabric. It has taped seams, taped zips and a water repellant coating. It’s a fantastic jacket, but if I stay out all night in the pouring rain, I’m pretty sure it will eventually leak.

And there lies the problem with the fabric VW have used. It will need taped seams, taped zips and regular application of sealant to prevent it leaking. Even with a regular sealing regime I would not fully trust the fabric myself for prolonged periods of rain without a topper.

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and conclusion from my own testing and research.

 

[Hueyhew]

Does anybody have any knowledge of the quality of the replacement fit process for these new new....bellows (not canvas versions)?

When the new bellows are replaced is any damage done to the existing frame/structure or is it a "simple" fed in around channels like a caravan awning rail?

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Does anybody have any knowledge of the quality of the replacement fit process for these new new....bellows (not canvas versions)?

When the new bellows are replaced is any damage done to the existing frame/structure or is it a "simple" fed in around channels like a caravan awning rail?

Mine looked like factory fit afterwards with no sign of anything at all being altered.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

The fabric itself does appear to have some kind of hydrophobic coating already. When it first gets wet, you look at it and think it’s impressive how the water just beads off. Unfortunately, it doesn’t stay like that and then starts to soak up the water.

I think the Achilles’ heel of the bellows (even if using fabsil or similar) will be the arched windows.

1) The arched window zips are already covered by a flap, which is normal practice for non-taped zips on tents, however, this is the first place the bellows will leak. Water runs down the zip and drips form at the corners. This is a seam leak as shown in the video:

2) The lower seam of the windows leak once the fabric is overwhelmed by the volume of water. This is a saturation leak.

So the problem is twofold. Has anyone seen any other tent products manufactured from this bonded two layer fabric?

My Goretex Pro jacket for example is a multilayer fabric. It has taped seams, taped zips and a water repellant coating. It’s a fantastic jacket, but if I stay out all night in the pouring rain, I’m pretty sure it will eventually leak.

And there lies the problem with the fabric VW have used. It will need taped seams, taped zips and regular application of sealant to prevent it leaking. Even with a regular sealing regime I would not fully trust the fabric myself for prolonged periods of rain without a topper.

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and conclusion from my own testing and research.

Your Goretex Pro is an interesting case in point. I imagine that they may call this a ‘breathable’ waterproof jacket though I could be wrong. The modern tendency towards breathable water proofs makes them more comfort but assumes that the wearer is not exposed to extreme use - such as storm-watch in an open crows nest, where marine gear would be necessary.

Somewhere in the MY23 changes decision making process VW have decided to increase the ‘comfort’ for van owners with these new bellows but, as others have posted, they have not sufficiently thought through the hydrophilic rather than hydrophobic nature of the outer layer of the new fabric. I am sure there will be expedient treatments but I doubt they will last or indeed be entirely effective more likely mitigating rather than curing the problem.

It comes back every time, eventually, to the fabric being wrong for this particular purpose (perhaps ideal for other situations), when you drill down on the problem.

 

[RockinNRollin]

I would be perfectly happy if the need was there to treat (say annually) the fabric with some sort of repellent product if it retained a breathable or semi-breathable property (and anecdotally, I would say the new fabric does appear to be breathable as I've not had any condensation on the inside at all.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

I would be perfectly happy if the need was there to treat (say annually) the fabric with some sort of repellent product if it retained a breathable or semi-breathable property (and anecdotally, I would say the new fabric does appear to be breathable as I've not had any condensation on the inside at all.

In my post #1056 (crikey ...) I asked if the bellow subcontractor and/or fabric supplier could be identified. One reason was to be able lobby them directly on the failures, thereby perhaps putting a pressure on them and indirectly VW, but the other reason was to to identify the exact fabric specification to review with my wife a fabric machining specialist (as already mentioned).

And in this regard @RockinNRollin 's post is interesting.

It is very possible that a compatible fabric treatment, as for example is used on ski-wear, may be an effective weathering improver: always in the knowledge that breathable material (if this is) is always a compromise between comfort and weather-proofing.

 

[Mansfieldman750]

In my post #1056 (crikey ...) I asked if the bellow subcontractor and/or fabric supplier could be identified. One reason was to be able lobby them directly on the failures, thereby perhaps putting a pressure on them and indirectly VW, but the other reason was to to identify the exact fabric specification to review with my wife a fabric machining specialist (as already mentioned).

And in this regard @RockinNRollin 's post is interesting.

It is very possible that a compatible fabric treatment, as for example is used on ski-wear, may be an effective weathering improver: always in the knowledge that breathable material (if this is) is always a compromise between comfort and weather-proofing.

I checked my walking and camping gear for origin. Waterproof stuff :
Berghaus Mera Peak Goretex jacket Made in Indonesia
Rab Downpour Plus overtrousers Made in China
Terra Nova Quasar tent Made in China
Non waterproof stuff :
Rab mid layer Myanmar
Craghoppers Kiwi trousers Bangladesh.

Nothing wrong with any of it, it’s all good kit.

So I would say the likelihood is that the bellows are cut and sewn somewhere in the Far East to keep costs down. There is a lot of sewing goes into these bellows and wage costs in Western Europe are prohibitive.

 

[Corradobrit]

I checked my walking and camping gear for origin. Waterproof stuff :
Berghaus Mera Peak Goretex jacket Made in Indonesia
Rab Downpour Plus overtrousers Made in China
Terra Nova Quasar tent Made in China
Non waterproof stuff :
Rab mid layer Myanmar
Craghoppers Kiwi trousers Bangladesh.

Nothing wrong with any of it, it’s all good kit.

So I would say the likelihood is that the bellows are cut and sewn somewhere in the Far East to keep costs down. There is a lot of sewing goes into these bellows and wage costs in Western Europe are prohibitive.

I would say, looking at the handwriting on the labels, the origin is not the Far East. More likely Eastern Europe eg Romania, Ukraine (less likely now due to the ongoing conflict) or Baltic countries such as Lithuania. All these countries produce active outdoor (waterproof) personal wear.

 

[Carabiner]

Hi All,

I've been offered replacement 'new bellows' for my leaky ones. I'm currently holding off getting the replacement while this situation emerges, as there seem to be several reports that the 'new bellows' still leak. Planning on getting a topper in the short term (which would probably be useful in any event in Scotland in the winter!).

Can anyone who's had the 'new bellows' fitted confirm that they have actually fixed the leaking?

I may have missed it, but I can't see anyone reporting success (yet). My email comms with VW Exec suggest some positive feedback on the new design, but are not definitive about this (yet).

@CaliforniaCylus really sorry to hear about your rejection. What a bummer.

Thanks.

 

[Mansfieldman750]

I would say, looking at the handwriting on the labels, the origin is not the Far East. More likely Eastern Europe eg Romania, Ukraine (less likely now due to the ongoing conflict) or Baltic countries such as Lithuania. All these countries produce active outdoor (waterproof) personal wear.

Not impossible, most Norwegian knitwear is knitted in Lithuania.

 

[Corradobrit]

Not impossible, most Norwegian knitwear is knitted in Lithuania.

The cross through the 7 is a dead giveaway. Thats a very European way to write 7.

 

[Kayleigh]

The cross through the 7 is a dead giveaway. Thats a very European way to write 7.

Are we all going to become handwriting analysts now!!!

Here’s my tag. Line through the 7 and it looks like an upward and downward line for the 1…

 

[Corradobrit]

Are we all going to become handwriting analysts now!!!

Here’s my tag. Line through the 7 and it looks like an upward and downward line for the 1…

View attachment 115994

We have to pass the time somehow while we wait for VW to get their act together.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

Hi All,

I've been offered replacement 'new bellows' for my leaky ones. I'm currently holding off getting the replacement while this situation emerges, as there seem to be several reports that the 'new bellows' still leak. Planning on getting a topper in the short term (which would probably be useful in any event in Scotland in the winter!).

Can anyone who's had the 'new bellows' fitted confirm that they have actually fixed the leaking?

I may have missed it, but I can't see anyone reporting success (yet). My email comms with VW Exec suggest some positive feedback on the new design, but are not definitive about this (yet).

@CaliforniaCylus really sorry to hear about your rejection. What a bummer.

Thanks.

They're being installed on my van today and the dealer assures me it's the very latest version so I'll let you know soon.

 

[Corradobrit]

They're being installed on my van today and the dealer assures me it's the very latest version so I'll let you know soon.

This is like being an English football supporter. The huge buildup and expectation, followed by inevitable letdown and recriminations. I really hope your bellows buck the trend.

 

[Ryanrunsfar123]

This is like being an English football supporter. The huge buildup and expectation, followed by inevitable letdown and recriminations. I really hope your bellows buck the trend.

We need the VW equivalent of Leicester City winning the premier league here. It's not impossible!!

 

[Jimmylondon07]

Don’t get too excited, even if the dealer passes them they’ve still got to pass my testing at home

 

[bullibuskombi]

FWIW, my leaky bellows never appeared to get saturated like a wet cloth, yet still let water through the seams.

Mine leaks as a result of water building up behind the flyscreen on the front bellows panel, collecting above the double seem and then leaking into the van inside.
Looks to me that the stitching is the issue.

 

[Corradobrit]

Mine leaks as a result of water building up behind the flyscreen on the front bellows panel, collecting above the double seem and then leaking into the van inside.
Looks to me that the stitching is the issue.

Its the stitching and the seam design being inappropriate for the new fabric thats at the centre of this debacle.

 

[Corradobrit]

I can see VW finding this cool new double skinned fabric with greater water column rating vs old. Then they bunged the roll and an example of the old bellows to some poor company in Lithuania, telling them to copy it and jobs a goodun......just an hypothesis

 

[Betsycalifornia]

Out of the blue the dealer rang today. New bellows arrived this morning, not next Tuesday, now fitted and just picked up the van. They’ve tested and what a surprise it passed the water test I’m told. We shall see when I test it. Dark and windy now. Testing will be tomorrow. I asked about the part number they’ve fitted and was shown the job card which I’ve photographed the part number for others and So I can be certain that these are new new and if they fail won’t be fitted again

 

[CampervanFlattie]

Well you are doing better than I am. Had mine into the dealer today to verify the leaking bellows having liaised with VW Exec (who asked me to take it in and knew the details of the appointment) and they said they had heard nothing from VW and knew nothing about any problems with MY23 bellows also, they couldn't change the bellows because there were non available and they wouldn't get paid unless VW said they should. They didn't even look at the van but agreed to contact VW. How can this still be possible from what appeared to be a main California centre? Bearing in mind I had to wait a few weeks for the appointment!

 

[Kayleigh]

Out of the blue the dealer rang today. New bellows arrived this morning, not next Tuesday, now fitted and just picked up the van. They’ve tested and what a surprise it passed the water test I’m told. We shall see when I test it. Dark and windy now. Testing will be tomorrow. I asked about the part number they’ve fitted and was shown the job card which I’ve photographed the part number for others and So I can be certain that these are new new and if they fail won’t be fitted again

View attachment 116007

Time to take a look at the product number on the bellows now we know where it is..

 

[Kayleigh]

I see Cali Chris has posted a video comparing showers in the Ocean vs the Grand…

How ironic!!!

 

[Corradobrit]

I see Cali Chris has posted a video comparing showers in the Ocean vs the Grand…

How ironic!!!

Maybe we should ask for a duck board to be standard equipment in a MY23/24 Cali