Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Andy C Berks.]

I spoke to my dealership today as I’m still waiting for delivery and had a few things to discuss. I asked him about the leaking bellows and he said it’s all fixed and no need to worry! He told me that it was all down to the thread and that’s the main change in the new bellows. They had used too much wax on the thread so it didn’t expand when wet. Now they have changed it, there should be no issues. Now I know that there have been other changes in the latest version as discussed here, but no one has mentioned anything about the thread type recently. He’s a sales guy after all so I’m taking what he said with a pinch of salt, but he did sound very well informed and confident in the fix.

Hi, just jumping in as notice you are in Newbury and therefore curious if it happened to be Marshall’s in Reading you are talking to ? I only ask as they haven’t shown that level of detailed knowledge so far, having messed up the replacement of my bellows last week - so if there is somebody in the know there, it would be useful to grab a name from you. Albeit am assuming it must be a different dealership based on your welcome experience !

 

[bullibuskombi]

I spoke to my dealership today as I’m still waiting for delivery and had a few things to discuss. I asked him about the leaking bellows and he said it’s all fixed and no need to worry! He told me that it was all down to the thread and that’s the main change in the new bellows. They had used too much wax on the thread so it didn’t expand when wet. Now they have changed it, there should be no issues. Now I know that there have been other changes in the latest version as discussed here, but no one has mentioned anything about the thread type recently. He’s a sales guy after all so I’m taking what he said with a pinch of salt, but he did sound very well informed and confident in the fix.

I spoke to my dealership today as I’m still waiting for delivery and had a few things to discuss. I asked him about the leaking bellows and he said it’s all fixed and no need to worry! He told me that it was all down to the thread and that’s the main change in the new bellows. They had used too much wax on the thread so it didn’t expand when wet. Now they have changed it, there should be no issues. Now I know that there have been other changes in the latest version as discussed here, but no one has mentioned anything about the thread type recently. He’s a sales guy after all so I’m taking what he said with a pinch of salt, but he did sound very well informed and confident in the fix.

I was told the issue is a lack of sealing on the stiching has caused the issue and the latest bellows has a plastic film over the seams, rather like a tent.

 

[Ilikesleeping]

Hi, just jumping in as notice you are in Newbury and therefore curious if it happened to be Marshall’s in Reading you are talking to ? I only ask as they haven’t shown that level of detailed knowledge so far, having messed up the replacement of my bellows last week - so if there is somebody in the know there, it would be useful to grab a name from you. Albeit am assuming it must be a different dealership based on your welcome experience !

Hi Andy, yes it was Reading. I spoke to the sales guy, John Cole. So far he has been great to deal with. Obviously I don’t have my Cali yet so my experience has been rather different to yours. I’m just hoping I get the latest bellows when delivered in Feb.

 

[Andy C Berks.]

Hi Andy, yes it was Reading. I spoke to the sales guy, John Cole. So far he has been great to deal with. Obviously I don’t have my Cali yet so my experience has been rather different to yours. I’m just hoping I get the latest bellows when delivered in Feb.

Thanks - I haven’t come across John, but that’s useful to know as it sounds like their technician should speak to him. I didn’t source my van through them, and in fairness all the build up over the phone and email had been on point, it was just the execution that went wrong on the day!

 

[RockinNRollin]

I'm not sure about the thread idea, I suppose it's possible. Seems to be multiple suggestions floating around there is some sort of sealing tape woven into the seams (a foam strip, rather than a "taped seam" like you get in a tent). To be honest, I don't really care too much how the watertightness is achieved, as long as it's there and is resilient in the long term.

 

[WelshGas]

I would have thought if the Bellows manufacturer has fixed the problem then the new type would go to the production line initially and then to the Spares Dept for Warranty replacements.

 

[From tent to van]

Hi all. So I have hose tested my 04S bellows. I don’t know if the parameters are correct or enough of a test but I set them out below with pics.

My bellows are my 3rd set. 04S dated 23/10/23, so before the magic 9/11/23 manufacture date.

Conditions of test:
1. Duration 30 minutes checking inside of bellows every 5 mins.
2. Used garden hose
3. What I would call heavy rain. The type in which if you’re in the van and need a wee you’re holding it for a break in the weather.
4. Pointed hose at front and 1 side. Split time 60-40 front to side. Was careful not to hit the side vent.

Results:
1. One drip on side window after 15 mins. Got no worse
2. No other drops from any seams
3. Some moisture at the bottom of the front of bellows where fixed to van.
4. External bellows have definitely been treated. The water runs off like it’s a waxed surface.
5. External bellows soaked - colour change to dark grey
6. Internal fabric (excluding comments above) is bone dry.

I would consider this acceptable. I would still like to test in prolonged rain.

Any advice on further test parameters would be greatly received.

 

[Corradobrit]

If the 04S has received a special treatment and still lets in water after a relatively short time, albeit minimally, that doesn't bode well for long term effectiveness. If the previous report that the stitching thread was 'overwaxed' on the 03S and reformulated for 04S, hopefully the fibers will now expand on repeated wetting and create a proper seal.

 

[ChrisTravel]

Thanks for posting

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Looks sort of good for 04S, however that seam at the bottom is critical. Mine let all the water in there and still looks like it leaks.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Looks sort of good for 04S, however that seam at the bottom is critical. Mine let all the water in there and still looks like it leaks.

My thoughts on the bottom seam is that it still leaks as original but the layer of rubber stops any water ingress inside the van. So it kind of accumulates but just runs away effectively outside the van.

If that makes sense.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

My thoughts on the bottom seam is that it still leaks as original but the layer of rubber stops any water ingress inside the van. So it kind of accumulates but just runs away effectively outside the van.

If that makes sense.

Which layer of rubber do you mean? All I can see in that photo is the rubber they all had already. See my photo below from my leaking bellows, April build date. The water still overflowed into the cabin.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Is the rubber at the base of the 04S version different to this?

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Is the rubber at the base of the 04S version different to this?

The bottom seam appears to have an extra layer to it but it's been so long since I saw the originals it's quite possible I've forgotten.

Just feels thicker and more rubbery.

 

[Kayleigh]

Hi all. So I have hose tested my 04S bellows. I don’t know if the parameters are correct or enough of a test but I set them out below with pics.

My bellows are my 3rd set. 04S dated 23/10/23, so before the magic 9/11/23 manufacture date.

Conditions of test:
1. Duration 30 minutes checking inside of bellows every 5 mins.
2. Used garden hose
3. What I would call heavy rain. The type in which if you’re in the van and need a wee you’re holding it for a break in the weather.
4. Pointed hose at front and 1 side. Split time 60-40 front to side. Was careful not to hit the side vent.

Results:
1. One drip on side window after 15 mins. Got no worse
2. No other drops from any seams
3. Some moisture at the bottom of the front of bellows where fixed to van.
4. External bellows have definitely been treated. The water runs off like it’s a waxed surface.
5. External bellows soaked - colour change to dark grey
6. Internal fabric (excluding comments above) is bone dry.

I would consider this acceptable. I would still like to test in prolonged rain.

Any advice on further test parameters would be greatly received.

If the bellows are leaking from the corner of the seam (as per your photo below), this suggests to me that it’s coming from the arched window zip and running down, rather than the horizontal seam.

A 30 minute test is not sufficient.

When I ran my tests on the 03S I did three sets of 30 mins with a break of 60 mins between each one, to imitate rain showers. I then ran further tests a week later. Check the test rig video on YouTube (@CaliLeaks). When I ran the tests a second time, the leaks were much worse from the window zip and slightly better from the seam below the window.

I would suggest running a test similar to mine, but also a longer test to simulate constant rain for say 120 minutes. Let the bellows dry completely between each test day so that the threads have a chance to recover and expand.

 

[Wee Haggis]

If the bellows are leaking from the corner of the seam (as per your photo below), this suggests to me that it’s coming from the arched window zip and running down, rather than the horizontal seam.

A 30 minute test is not sufficient.

When I ran my tests on the 03S I did three sets of 30 mins with a break of 60 mins between each one, to imitate rain showers. I then ran further tests a week later. Check the test rig video on YouTube (@CaliLeaks). When I ran the tests a second time, the leaks were much worse from the window zip and slightly better from the seam below the window.

I would suggest running a test similar to mine, but also a longer test to simulate constant rain for say 120 minutes. Let the bellows dry completely between each test day so that the threads have a chance to recover and expand.

View attachment 117237

So VW customer service tell me that there is a new product available in January that will be the ultimate fix so I am holding off till that becomes available. Meanwhile still feel that we have all been deprived of the purpose we bought the vans for and VW should either be accepting rejections or paying some level of compensation.

 

[stationmaster]

I would have thought if the Bellows manufacturer has fixed the problem then the new type would go to the production line initially and then to the Spares Dept for Warranty replacements.

Yes, this would be logical - and 04S bellows have been fitted to a very recent collection/delivery of e new California i think.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

Well they say the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.....
We traveled for the first time in our Cali with the main intention of giving the 4S's a proper test, but Sods Law the wind was blowing with gusts up to 55mph to the point where it was rocking the van. Consequently I thought it too risky to put them up (not sure if I could have had them up in these conditions?) so had to sleep in the downstairs bed. I was able to put up the bellows this morning for about an hour as the wind had died down in very light rain. Afterwards I notice a few single droplets of water in the flat area where the base of the upstairs bed drops into. The bellows seemed largely okay and I'm guessing and hoping that the droplets could have just been condensation as the windows were pretty steamed up this morning.

I will be giving them a try again, as the 4 days I left them out at home was in rainy conditions but not much wind so I'm not sure if the bellows actually got that wet.

 

[stationmaster]

Well they say the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.....
We traveled for the first time in our Cali with the main intention of giving the 4S's a proper test, but Sods Law the wind was blowing with gusts up to 55mph to the point where it was rocking the van. Consequently I thought it too risky to put them up (not sure if I could have had them up in these conditions?) so had to sleep in the downstairs bed. I was able to put up the bellows this morning for about an hour as the wind had died down in very light rain. Afterwards I notice a few single droplets of water in the flat area where the base of the upstairs bed drops into. The bellows seemed largely okay and I'm guessing and hoping that the droplets could have just been condensation as the windows were pretty steamed up this morning.

I will be giving them a try again, as the 4 days I left them out at home was in rainy conditions but not much wind so I'm not sure if the bellows actually got that wet.

Good to hear you had your first trip out in the new van...wise move to sleep downstairs in a storm!
Like you, i hope the few drops of water were condensation Be great to see this sorted with the 04S revisions.

 

[Corradobrit]

Well they say the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.....
We traveled for the first time in our Cali with the main intention of giving the 4S's a proper test, but Sods Law the wind was blowing with gusts up to 55mph to the point where it was rocking the van. Consequently I thought it too risky to put them up (not sure if I could have had them up in these conditions?) so had to sleep in the downstairs bed. I was able to put up the bellows this morning for about an hour as the wind had died down in very light rain. Afterwards I notice a few single droplets of water in the flat area where the base of the upstairs bed drops into. The bellows seemed largely okay and I'm guessing and hoping that the droplets could have just been condensation as the windows were pretty steamed up this morning.

I will be giving them a try again, as the 4 days I left them out at home was in rainy conditions but not much wind so I'm not sure if the bellows actually got that wet.

If the bellows are better sealed now, the chances for condensation to accumulate is greater. Fingers crossed thats all it is.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

One odd thing that happened was when I was driving the wind noise was quite intrusive at higher speeds, so I got out and the roof had managed to pop up about half an inch when it was flush closed when I left. I closed it again and that seemed to remedy the issue, I'm pretty sure that wasn't bellows related but I was wondering if this should concern me?

 

[stationmaster]

One odd thing that happened was when I was driving the wind noise was quite intrusive at higher speeds, so I got out and the roof had managed to pop up about half an inch when it was flush closed when I left. I closed it again and that seemed to remedy the issue, I'm pretty sure that wasn't bellows related but I was wondering if this should concern me?

That is unusual in my experience...i'm on my third electric roof van and it has never happened to me in 10 odd years. When you close the roof, it is always good to go down in stages, carefully checking all is folded well and clear of the mechanism as you go. When fully closed you wait for the noise to end prior to releasing the switch/button (but you likely know this anyway).

 

[RockinNRollin]

@Barry Chuckle remember if it’s breezy a few drops can blow through the roof vents at the top of the bellows too (which I hasten to add is quite normal).

 

[Jabberwocky]

It occurs to me that with all the various iterations of bellows that VWCV are trying out to effect a suitable replacement for the current not fit for purpose offering, and specifically any that include extra layers of materials it is building another potential problem. With each extra material layer it becomes more difficult to close the roof simply because there is more material bulk. I noticed that folding and putting the front aspect of the bellows away when not in use that the hatch was increasingly difficult to close. So, will this then lead to premature scuffing and therefore extra wear and tear of the new bellows materials? Something to bear in mind maybe. (I have had six years travelling and three Cali's since joining the Cali life in Feb 2017).

 

[Barry Chuckle]

It occurs to me that with all the various iterations of bellows that VWCV are trying out to effect a suitable replacement for the current not fit for purpose offering, and specifically any that include extra layers of materials it is building another potential problem. With each extra material layer it becomes more difficult to close the roof simply because there is more material bulk. I noticed that folding and putting the front aspect of the bellows away when not in use that the hatch was increasingly difficult to close. So, will this then lead to premature scuffing and therefore extra wear and tear of the new bellows materials? Something to bear in mind maybe. (I have had six years travelling and three Cali's since joining the Cali life in Feb 2017).

You're absolutely right here, my wife and I had a real kerfuffle shoehorning the last bit of the bellows in to close the shutter. This hasn't got any easier in the several attempts since, I'd really struggle to do this on my own tbh. I wasn't sure whether this was a burden all Cali owners have to live with or an issue with the latest bellows. But long term I am concerned the damage this may do to the fabric which VW may argue isn't wear and tear..