Leisure batteries.

[WelshGas]

Thanks, sounds good advice & now I know the age of them I'm convinced. Change them I will. Should I get exactly the same. Cheers.

Yes. But not from VW. They sell them for almost double the price.
Got mine from here.

Varta Professional Leisure Batteries - Leisure Batteries

Tayna Batteries supply all types of Leisure Batteries. Browse our full range of Varta Professional Leisure Batteries here. We aim to be the cheapest supplier of Varta Professional Leisure Batteries in the UK.

www.tayna.co.uk

 

[Brownbetty]

Yes. But not from VW. They sell them for almost double the price.
Got mine from here.

Varta Professional Leisure Batteries - Leisure Batteries

Tayna Batteries supply all types of Leisure Batteries. Browse our full range of Varta Professional Leisure Batteries here. We aim to be the cheapest supplier of Varta Professional Leisure Batteries in the UK.

www.tayna.co.uk

Thanks WelshGas

 

[TripleBee]

Make sure the dimensions are the same so they fit under the seat and watertank.
And replace them with the same or even higher A an Ah values.
And of course, at least AGM. Not normal lead acid.

 

[Brownbetty]

Make sure the dimensions are the same so they fit under the seat and watertank.
And replace them with the same or even higher A an Ah values.
And of course, at least AGM. Not normal lead acid.

Will do, thanks again.

 

[TripleBee]

Oh, maybe before you really change the batteries. Why don't you do a voltage test?
When I put on the fridge, or the aux heater, without hookup, the voltage drops to about 12,3V and stays around there.
If it would drop to the very low 12, or even high 11V, then it's certainly the batteries, if they don't drop below 12,2V and the heater cuts off, it might indeed be a problem near the heater.

 

[Brownbetty]

Oh, maybe before you really change the batteries. Why don't you do a voltage test?
When I put on the fridge, or the aux heater, without hookup, the voltage drops to about 12,3V and stays around there.
If it would drop to the very low 12, or even high 11V, then it's certainly the batteries, if they don't drop below 12,2V and the heater cuts off, it might indeed be a problem near the heater.

Sounds like a good idea, thanks.

 

[peregrinus]

I bought two of these in February for £149.95 each plus about £10 delivery.
Fairly easy to fit. There are good instructions on the forum.

F21 Varta Silver Dynamic Start-Stop Plus AGM Car Battery 12V 80Ah (580901080) (110 AGM)

F21 VARTA Silver Dynamic AGM Car Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after, VARTA delivers the...

www.tayna.co.uk

 

[Brownbetty]

I bought two of these in February for £149.95 each plus about £10 delivery.
Fairly easy to fit. There are good instructions on the forum.

F21 Varta Silver Dynamic Start-Stop Plus AGM Car Battery 12V 80Ah (580901080) (110 AGM)

F21 VARTA Silver Dynamic AGM Car Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after, VARTA delivers the...

www.tayna.co.uk

I've had mine in and out so it's just the size.
Thanks for pointing me in right direction.

 

[Brownbetty]

I bought two of these in February for £149.95 each plus about £10 delivery.
Fairly easy to fit. There are good instructions on the forum.

F21 Varta Silver Dynamic Start-Stop Plus AGM Car Battery 12V 80Ah (580901080) (110 AGM)

F21 VARTA Silver Dynamic AGM Car Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after, VARTA delivers the...

www.tayna.co.uk

I bought two of these in February for £149.95 each plus about £10 delivery.
Fairly easy to fit. There are good instructions on the forum.

F21 Varta Silver Dynamic Start-Stop Plus AGM Car Battery 12V 80Ah (580901080) (110 AGM)

F21 VARTA Silver Dynamic AGM Car Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after, VARTA delivers the...

www.tayna.co.uk

Hi peregrinus, I've decided that the batteries are knackered & need changing, are the batteries you recommended the F21 varta the same size as the ones coming out or have I to state the size. Cheers.

 

[WelshGas]

Hi peregrinus, I've decided that the batteries are knackered & need changing, are the batteries you recommended the F21 varta the same size as the ones coming out or have I to state the size. Cheers.

Be Aware, the F21 is sold as an Engine/Starter battery. Although, apparently it is similarly to the more expensive LA80 Varta Leisure Battery, the 4 yr warranty is null and void if used as a Leisure Battery. It can be used but I had it confirmed by Tanya regarding the warranty and decided that the price difference wasn’t worth the loss of warranty.

LA80 Varta Professional Dual Purpose AGM Leisure Battery 840 080 080

LA80 VARTA Professional Dual Purpose AGM Leisure Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after, VARTA...

www.tayna.co.uk

 

[Brownbetty]

Be Aware, the F21 is sold as an Engine/Starter battery. Although, apparently it is similarly to the more expensive LA80 Varta Leisure Battery, the 4 yr warranty is null and void if used as a Leisure Battery. It can be used but I had it confirmed by Tanya regarding the warranty and decided that the price difference wasn’t worth the loss of warranty.

LA80 Varta Professional Dual Purpose AGM Leisure Battery 840 080 080

LA80 VARTA Professional Dual Purpose AGM Leisure Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after, VARTA...

www.tayna.co.uk

Thanks WG, definitely want the warranty, will they be exact size.

 

[peregrinus]

Sizing.
The F21 fitted the gaps in my 2013 T5 cali exactly.
From the website.

Length	315 mm
Width	175 mm
Height inc. terms	190 mm

Warranty.
If the batteries fail and the warranty is not honoured then it sounds to me like a perfect case to test the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Or maybe life is too short to worry about such things.

Anyway they are OK so far, thus I can offer you no opinion on whether the warranty will be either required or upheld.

Your choices;
Make do with the current situation; fridge switching off, resulting uncertainty and complaints.
Go to VW and pay more for them to take the strain.
Take welsh gas' advice and buy more expensive batteries.
Buy the F21 and live life on the edge.

 

[WelshGas]

Thanks WG, definitely want the warranty, will they be exact size.

They are the correct size etc: they are exact replacements for the VW supplied batteries. It’s just that the VW Varta are black and those supplied from Varta Silver. No other difference.

 

[WelshGas]

Sizing.
The F21 fitted the gaps in my 2013 T5 cali exactly.
From the website.

Length	315 mm
Width	175 mm
Height inc. terms	190 mm

Warranty.

If the batteries fail and the warranty is not honoured then it sounds to me like a perfect case to test the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Or maybe life is too short to worry about such things.

Anyway they are OK so far, thus I can offer you no opinion on whether the warranty will be either required or upheld.

Your choices;
Make do with the current situation; fridge switching off, resulting uncertainty and complaints.
Go to VW and pay more for them to take the strain.
Take welsh gas' advice and buy more expensive batteries.
Buy the F21 and live life on the edge.

If warranted for a certain usage and then used outside that usage - Warranty nul and void.

Also you normally find that batteries designed and sold as Leisure batteries have slightly thicker electrode plates than batteries for Engine Starter usage to allow for deeper more prolonged discharge without damage.

Understanding Leisure Batteries
Unless connected to a mains electricity supply, the 12V equipment in a caravan or motorhome relies on a leisure battery. Leisure battery technology differs from standard car battery technology as it is optimised to handle the loads and patterns of use that are common in caravans and motorhomes.
Standard Starter Batteries
A standard starter battery is designed to produce a high peak current to turn an engine over, typically over 1200rpm down to a temperature of -30°C. This is necessary to overcome the mechanical and thermal resistance of the engine, and depending on the engine design and standing temperature, requires cranking current up to 1000A. The vehicle alternator quickly replenishes lost battery capacity when the engine is running. Standard lead acid starter batteries are designed for standard non start-stop vehicles and are mostly based on calcium grid technology (low water loss technology). The design of these batteries focuses more on start-ability than durability, where plate count and plate surface area are optimised to provide high cranking capability, rather than cyclic durability. Poor quality low cost batteries in this market have been shown to last less than 3 cycles at 100% DOD (Depth of Discharge), i.e. fully discharged cycles, and typically less than20 cycles when compared to the leisure market requirement of 50% DOD. Mainstream automotive batteries tend to last 20-30 cycles at 100% DOD and more than 70cycles at 50% DOD. As a result, standard lead acid starter batteries are not suitable for the cyclic demands that are common to the leisure market.
Leisure Batteries
In contrast to a standard starter battery, a leisure battery has to provide a steady flow of current over a prolonged period and seldom gets recharged until the user recognises that’s its Voltage level has substantially fallen. At this point, a recharge must be provided. If left for a long period in a discharged state, or left connected to a load which forces the battery into an over discharged state, a battery will not regain its former condition. These conditions can lead to the formation of soft shorts which will render the battery unserviceable.
It is general practice to market leisure batteries with some indication of the number of cycles that the battery can achieve at 50% state of charge. By design, increasing the number of cycles given by a battery (life and durability, rather than start-ability) involves the following:
• Adding more lead, generally using higher density active material during plate construction
• Using expensive materials designed to operate the cell packs at a higher pressure (whilst maintaining acid between the plates)
Conventional lead acid leisure batteries are considered to meet the demands of entry level to mid-range applications. Subject to the application, a durability range of 70 to 360 cycles + 50% DOD is common. Recent investment and developments in micro hybrid automotive technology, which bears similar requirements to the leisure market, has resulted in improved conventional leisure battery durability.

 

[Emil Silenhag]

The F21 and the LA80 are the same battery sold with different labels...

 

[Brownbetty]

Sizing.
The F21 fitted the gaps in my 2013 T5 cali exactly.
From the website.

Length	315 mm
Width	175 mm
Height inc. terms	190 mm

Warranty.

If the batteries fail and the warranty is not honoured then it sounds to me like a perfect case to test the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Or maybe life is too short to worry about such things.

Anyway they are OK so far, thus I can offer you no opinion on whether the warranty will be either required or upheld.

Your choices;
Make do with the current situation; fridge switching off, resulting uncertainty and complaints.
Go to VW and pay more for them to take the strain.
Take welsh gas' advice and buy more expensive batteries.
Buy the F21 and live life on the edge.

Thanks for the quick reply

 

[Brownbetty]

If warranted for a certain usage and then used outside that usage - Warranty nul and void.

Also you normally find that batteries designed and sold as Leisure batteries have slightly thicker electrode plates than batteries for Engine Starter usage to allow for deeper more prolonged discharge without damage.

Understanding Leisure Batteries
Unless connected to a mains electricity supply, the 12V equipment in a caravan or motorhome relies on a leisure battery. Leisure battery technology differs from standard car battery technology as it is optimised to handle the loads and patterns of use that are common in caravans and motorhomes.
Standard Starter Batteries
A standard starter battery is designed to produce a high peak current to turn an engine over, typically over 1200rpm down to a temperature of -30°C. This is necessary to overcome the mechanical and thermal resistance of the engine, and depending on the engine design and standing temperature, requires cranking current up to 1000A. The vehicle alternator quickly replenishes lost battery capacity when the engine is running. Standard lead acid starter batteries are designed for standard non start-stop vehicles and are mostly based on calcium grid technology (low water loss technology). The design of these batteries focuses more on start-ability than durability, where plate count and plate surface area are optimised to provide high cranking capability, rather than cyclic durability. Poor quality low cost batteries in this market have been shown to last less than 3 cycles at 100% DOD (Depth of Discharge), i.e. fully discharged cycles, and typically less than20 cycles when compared to the leisure market requirement of 50% DOD. Mainstream automotive batteries tend to last 20-30 cycles at 100% DOD and more than 70cycles at 50% DOD. As a result, standard lead acid starter batteries are not suitable for the cyclic demands that are common to the leisure market.
Leisure Batteries
In contrast to a standard starter battery, a leisure battery has to provide a steady flow of current over a prolonged period and seldom gets recharged until the user recognises that’s its Voltage level has substantially fallen. At this point, a recharge must be provided. If left for a long period in a discharged state, or left connected to a load which forces the battery into an over discharged state, a battery will not regain its former condition. These conditions can lead to the formation of soft shorts which will render the battery unserviceable.
It is general practice to market leisure batteries with some indication of the number of cycles that the battery can achieve at 50% state of charge. By design, increasing the number of cycles given by a battery (life and durability, rather than start-ability) involves the following:
• Adding more lead, generally using higher density active material during plate construction
• Using expensive materials designed to operate the cell packs at a higher pressure (whilst maintaining acid between the plates)
Conventional lead acid leisure batteries are considered to meet the demands of entry level to mid-range applications. Subject to the application, a durability range of 70 to 360 cycles *+ 50% DOD is common. Recent investment and developments in micro hybrid automotive technology, which bears similar requirements to the leisure market, has resulted in improved conventional leisure battery durability.

Thanks for that

 

[MartG]

The F21 and the LA80 are the same battery sold with different labels...

I'm not sure that's correct? The LA80 is labelled and marketed as a higher cycle (thicker plate) battery for moderate discharge use and long life, compared to the F21, sold as a higher current / quick re-charge battery, mainly for start / stop engine use. The F21 will be under used and potentially not last as long as the LA80 for the rear of the Cali... If they were identical, then I doubt Varta would give them different labels or cost differences.

 

[peregrinus]

It’s £300 vs £322.
I understand that campervan batteries will be free for everyone under a labour government anyway...

Or illegal. I forget which.

 

[WelshGas]

The F21 and the LA80 are the same battery sold with different labels...

Not according to Tanya, a major supplier in the U.K. There are differences.

 

[WelshGas]

It’s £300 vs £322.
I understand that campervan batteries will be free for everyone under a labour government anyway...

Or illegal. I forget which.

+ or - a 4 year guarantee.

 

[Emil Silenhag]

I'm not sure that's correct? The LA80 is labelled and marketed as a higher cycle (thicker plate) battery for moderate discharge use and long life, compared to the F21, sold as a higher current / quick re-charge battery, mainly for start / stop engine use. The F21 will be under used and potentially not last as long as the LA80 for the rear of the Cali... If they were identical, then I doubt Varta would give them different labels or cost differences.

They are the same according to a professional Varta importer here in Norway. Same battery under different label..
The price is almost the same here in Norway. Sometimes you find one of them cheaper then the other.
They have exactly the same specs.
If one of them had “thicker plates”, then it would be bigger and heavier.
I’ve used both LA 80 and F21 in California’s and haven’t noticed any difference.

 

[peregrinus]

Interesting. Welsh gas are you wrong about this?

Anyway. I have some drying paint I need to keep an eye on so adios.

 

[WelshGas]

They are the same according to a professional Varta importer here in Norway.
The price are almost the same here in Norway.
They have exactly the same specs.
If one of them had “thicker plates”, then it would be bigger and heavier.
I’ve used both LA 80 and F21 in California’s and haven’t noticed any difference.

View attachment 53283

View attachment 53284

Different Model numbers, so different batteries as far as I am concerned. I cannot see a manufacture selling the same battery into 2 different markets that are exactly the same. They could have sold it as a multi-purpose battery but they didn’t.
The fact that they have similar specifications does not mean they are the same internally.

 

[MartG]

Not according to Varta's website...

LA80 https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/varta-professional-dual-purpose-agm/840-080-080

4x cycle life, low self discharge - ideal for leisure use

F21 https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/varta-silver-dynamic-agm/580-901-080

3x cycle life, high cold cranking current (for engine starting)

Size, current capacity and voltage are the same, very different inside.

Each to their own, but I know which I'd fit.