Lithium Battery Installation

[bob1651]

Hi. My 2006 VW Cali needed some upgrades. I've installed a solar panel via Mppt controller and have been impressed at how little I require hook-up. I've taken the plunge to replace the AGM batteries for lithium ones. This should double my capacity and allow the installation of a 1600 watt inverter without taking any more space. The wardrobe leisure battery is nearly drop in. The passenger seat battery required a seat lift due to battery size. All has gone well and campervan control panel worked until connecting brown lead from wardrobe (hook up charger)? Its wasn't connected to hook-up though. I've checked passenger seat fuses and all appears okay. Has anyone else tried the upgrade? Or know anything about the multifunction display?

 

[bob1651]

Fixed.......the Lipo4 batteries were out of balance and the BMS (Battery Management System) had shut them down. I've now got a fully working twin Lipo4 leisure battery setup with solar set to full lithium settings and the VW split charger providing bulk power if needed. My 1600 watt inverter will now power hair dryer, coffea machine or any high output item and the batteries bounce straight back when done. Twin 84amp batteries allow 1720 watts of power + 80% depth of discharge giving very little degradation to the batteries compared to 900 watts of 75amp + 50% depth of discharge of AGM batteries Solar allows maximum amps at all times to head straight for batteries regardless of capacity without throttling for lead based. Lipo4 Batteries built in BMS stops overcharge, undervolt or anything the existing system throws at it that are above or below its parameters. Still testing, but having owned my van from new (14 Years) so far I'm totally impressed. Nespresso Coffee and wife and daughter with blown dry hair......result! If interested please let me know!

 

[westfalia]

Nice mod done there Bob

 

[jhgf]

How much did your Lithium batteries cost, if you don’t mind me asking.
J

 

[Chippy]

Fixed.......the Lipo4 batteries were out of balance and the BMS (Battery Management System) had shut them down. I've now got a fully working twin Lipo4 leisure battery setup with solar set to full lithium settings and the VW split charger providing bulk power if needed. My 1600 watt inverter will now power hair dryer, coffea machine or any high output item and the batteries bounce straight back when done. Twin 84amp batteries allow 1720 watts of power + 80% depth of discharge giving very little degradation to the batteries compared to 900 watts of 75amp + 50% depth of discharge of AGM batteries Solar allows maximum amps at all times to head straight for batteries regardless of capacity without throttling for lead based. Lipo4 Batteries built in BMS stops overcharge, undervolt or anything the existing system throws at it that are above or below its parameters. Still testing, but having owned my van from new (14 Years) so far I'm totally impressed. Nespresso Coffee and wife and daughter with blown dry hair......result! If interested please let me know!

I'm interested in how and where you purchased the kit. I recently went to buy a LIONTRON, 150 ah costing £1500 but the sparky said that my power management system (PMS3H) would not charge at a high enough rate and would need a battery to battery unit to fool the system and allow more charge. I decided to walk away and give it more thought as I wasn't aware and needed to research. Any info would be great but I'm not sure best way of doing this outside the forum? Cheers, M.

 

[marchugo]

Fixed.......the Lipo4 batteries were out of balance and the BMS (Battery Management System) had shut them down. I've now got a fully working twin Lipo4 leisure battery setup with solar set to full lithium settings and the VW split charger providing bulk power if needed.

Bob,

Interesting solution. Did you drop in the lipos just like that? How did you connect the generator cables (10 MM?) to the B2B charger?
How did you connect the D plus cable.
And which lipo4 batteries have you bought. How much too high were they for the front seat.
Any pictures, please?

Regards from Amsterdam,

Marc.

 

[rod_vw]

Watching with interest.

 

[Paul S]

May I ask, Lithium Polymer or Lithium Ion?

 

[WelshGas]

ALL you need to know. Very interesting and informative.

Lithium LifePo4 12v Batteries - Time For An Upgrade?

Lithium Batteries are the future, (keep checking back for the latest news/edits) ************************************************** Dellmassive`s -- "how I Done It" -- Thread ************************************************** Kit List And Stuff -- How I Done It & What I Use --...

www.t6forum.com

And some extra Reading.

Search results for query: Lithium

www.t6forum.com

 

[AlanC]

One thing that puzzles me about changing to Li-On batteries is that the charging process is totally different to lead acid batteries.

The chargers fitted to the Cali, be they the alternator or the leisure battery charger, are constant voltage type. Lithium requires a constant current charger.

According to WG’s T6 Forum link it is possible to change the profile of some chargers. That begs the question, does the charger fitted by VW to the Cali have this charge profile available?

Alan

 

[Paul S]

ALL you need to know. Very interesting and informative.

Lithium LifePo4 12v Batteries - Time For An Upgrade?

Lithium Batteries are the future, (keep checking back for the latest news/edits) ************************************************** Dellmassive`s -- "how I Done It" -- Thread ************************************************** Kit List And Stuff -- How I Done It & What I Use --...

www.t6forum.com

And some extra Reading.

Search results for query: Lithium

www.t6forum.com

Thank you. I’ve used LiPo in competitive RC cars for years and I’ve been around the scare stories. The thought of sleeping on top of a constantly charging large capacity LiPo cell would mean I wouldn’t sleep at all .

 

[WelshGas]

One thing that puzzles me about changing to Li-On batteries is that the charging process is totally different to lead acid batteries.

The chargers fitted to the Cali, be they the alternator or the leisure battery charger, are constant voltage type. Lithium requires a constant current charger.

According to WG’s T6 Forum link it is possible to change the profile of some chargers. That begs the question, does the charger fitted by VW to the Cali have this charge profile available?

Alan

I doubt it.

 

[rod_vw]

Thank you. I’ve used LiPo in competitive RC cars for years and I’ve been around the scare stories. The thought of sleeping on top of a constantly charging large capacity LiPo cell would mean I wouldn’t sleep at all .

My son is deep into RC car racing and looked at the location of my leisure batteries today. His comment was that if a LiPo failed in these locations it would probably burn a hole in the side of the van quicker than you could jump out of the vehicle.
There are lots of videos on Youtube showing how they burn, Google them!

 

[Mike Currie]

There appears to be some confusion about the drop in Lithium batteries that are being used in Campervans etc. They use a completely different chemistry to Lithium ion or Lithium poly batteries. The LiFePO4 battery is Lithium Iron Phosphate. These batteries do not catch fire or explode!

LiFePO4 batteries are routinely used as backup power for critical hospital equipment.

 

[rod_vw]

There appears to be some confusion about the drop in Lithium batteries that are being used in Campervans etc. They use a completely different chemistry to Lithium ion or Lithium poly batteries. The LiFePO4 battery is Lithium Iron Phosphate. These batteries do not catch fire or explode!

LiFePO4 batteries are routinely used as backup power for critical hospital equipment.

Yes I will agree with that, it is the LiPo ones that become unstable very easily.

 

[bob1651]

How much did your Lithium batteries cost, if you don’t mind me asking.
J

How much did your Lithium batteries cost, if you don’t mind me asking.
J

I got them from these guys......really helpfull.

I've now used the van all weekend with Fridge and lights left on permanent and the setup never dropped from 90% (VW use charged battery as 100%, not resting battery at 12.6V for Lead or 12.8 for lithium). So solar kept the system completely topped off at full. Amazed by the swapover.

 

[bob1651]

One thing that puzzles me about changing to Li-On batteries is that the charging process is totally different to lead acid batteries.

The chargers fitted to the Cali, be they the alternator or the leisure battery charger, are constant voltage type. Lithium requires a constant current charger.

According to WG’s T6 Forum link it is possible to change the profile of some chargers. That begs the question, does the charger fitted by VW to the Cali have this charge profile available?

Alan

These batteries want a charge between 14.2 and 14.4v. Exactly what the alternator gives. They also can take a maximum of 42 amps, I see a max of more than 24.6v when just starting, then the alternator throttles back the aperage as they are 100% anyway. The BMS (battery management system) built into each battery sorts out any overcharging or undervoltage automatically so I believe no damage can be done to the batteries. I have installed 100amp fuses on both batteries and a 100amp breaker to the inverter too. The only modifications I've made is raise the passenger seat by 25mm and change the oem battery post cables to battery terminals for M8 Studs.

 

[bob1651]

May I ask, Lithium Polymer or Lithium Ion?

Lipo4

 

[bob1651]

I'm interested in how and where you purchased the kit. I recently went to buy a LIONTRON, 150 ah costing £1500 but the sparky said that my power management system (PMS3H) would not charge at a high enough rate and would need a battery to battery unit to fool the system and allow more charge. I decided to walk away and give it more thought as I wasn't aware and needed to research. Any info would be great but I'm not sure best way of doing this outside the forum? Cheers, M.

That makes sense as 150ah would need about 75ah to charge at maximum. I'm charging mine at 1/2 the maximum they can take....so it takes a little longer using the factory setup but thats no big deal as they are only topping off what the solar hasnt been able to keep up with.....which is not alot. I have been running a 1400watt nespresso coffea machine and hair dryer and when done the batteries go back to their original voltage (about 13.8v). Lipo4 maintain voltage almost the same voltage all the way down to 80% before they drop.

 

[Mike Currie]

LiFePO4 batteries should only be charged via chargers with LiFePO4 profiles.

There is a wealth of good information available on the dos and donts of using LiFePO4 batteries. I would strongly recommend doing some research before embarking on this particular upgrade. As mistakes can prove expensive.

Careful - Alternator Charging Lithium - Victron Energy

Charging lithium batteries from an alternator, be that in a boat or vehicle, presents some challenges when compared to the straightforward nature of charging lead based batteries. The video in this blog highlights these lithium challenges and shows you what can happen when things go wrong –...

www.victronenergy.com

So for a California you will need a dcdc charger for alternator, new mains charger for EHU and a solar charger (if fitted). All with LiFePO4 charging profiles.
It also helps to have battery temperature monitoring to automatically disable charging at temps below 5oC and a battery protect to save the battery from over discharge.
I prefer the Bluetooth controlled chargers etc. It makes it much easier to use.

So a system with 2 x 100Ah battery, dcdc charger, EHU charger, Solar charger with solar panel, battery protect, shunt for battery monitoring and cables, fuses etc will cost in the region of £2500 for DIY installation.

 

[bob1651]

LiFePO4 batteries should only be charged via chargers with LiFePO4 profiles.

There is a wealth of good information available on the dos and donts of using LiFePO4 batteries. I would strongly recommend doing some research before embarking on this particular upgrade. As mistakes can prove expensive.

Careful - Alternator Charging Lithium - Victron Energy

Charging lithium batteries from an alternator, be that in a boat or vehicle, presents some challenges when compared to the straightforward nature of charging lead based batteries. The video in this blog highlights these lithium challenges and shows you what can happen when things go wrong –...

www.victronenergy.com

So for a California you will need a dcdc charger for alternator, new mains charger for EHU and a solar charger (if fitted). All with LiFePO4 charging profiles.
It also helps to have battery temperature monitoring to automatically disable charging at temps below 5oC and a battery protect to save the battery from over discharge.
I prefer the Bluetooth controlled chargers etc. It makes it much easier to use.

So a system with 2 x 100Ah battery, dcdc charger, EHU charger, Solar charger with solar panel, battery protect, shunt for battery monitoring and cables, fuses etc will cost in the region of £2500 for DIY installation.

I love victron products but this test is deeply flawed. 300ah battery in a campervan? Only 50% charged? No engine cooling. So the test is run at high revs as if the vehicle is standing still? When is this scenario real. Sorry, but this test is not real world. Solar will keep the batteries topped up during the day. Starting and running the engine whilst actually driving will keep temperatures normal. I'm able to replicate this test in the real world as I too have a high end thermal imaging camera and have this setup. By the way the cost of this conversion is well below £1000 mark for the batteries. Solar a few hundred more.

 

[Mike Currie]

I love victron products but this test is deeply flawed. 300ah battery in a campervan? Only 50% charged? No engine cooling. So the test is run at high revs as if the vehicle is standing still? When is this scenario real. Sorry, but this test is not real world. Solar will keep the batteries topped up during the day. Starting and running the engine whilst actually driving will keep temperatures normal. I'm able to replicate this test in the real world as I too have a high end thermal imaging camera and have this setup. By the way the cost of this conversion is well below £1000 mark for the batteries. Solar a few hundred more.

The example I posted was one of many the point out the need to use the correct chargers for LiFePO4 batteries. I fully appreciate that opinions on this subject may differ but I am confident that I made the correct decision for my requirements.

 

[Romke]

So a system with 2 x 100Ah battery, dcdc charger, EHU charger, Solar charger with solar panel, battery protect, shunt for battery monitoring and cables, fuses etc will cost in the region of £2500 for DIY installation.

All that for a hot drink and dry hair?

 

[bob1651]

£1650.00 all in. Yes its worth it in my opinion. I never have to worry about the leisure or cranking battery again especially during the winter months. My daughter as she gets older will require more creature comforts to tolerate coming with us. I've had the van from new (14 Years) I've not spent a penny other than servicing and maintenance. I now have unlimited power which requires no maintenance and should last for decades. I've gone top end by using Victron components but cheaper alternatives are available. A set of alloys and wheels cost the same! We go skiing in the alps in the winter and tow a 6mtr boat to Annecy and South of France in the summer. Being off grid and not tethered to campsites is important to us.

 

[jackster]

Here's something new I've found... 200ah under seat lipo4 battery. Custom shape for the T5 or T6 swivel chairs so wayyy more capacity which would sort out my 2021 Beach which has one rubbish factory fitted battery which can only run a fridge for 24hours.

Anyone tried or got an opinion on these? Can they just be dropped in as a replacement? Are the t6.1 chairs exactly the same size?

12V 230Ah Seatbase Lithium Battery — Roamer Lithium Batteries

The Seatbase LiFePO4 fits perfectly under a campervan swivel seat. With premium compact cells providing 230Ah of useable capacity and a high power BMS...

roamerbatteries.com