New engine needed - what should we think about?

[RockinNRollin]

I had a RX8. Twin roter Wankel engine.
Fantastic drive and covered with warning stickers to check oil level. Would use 1L / 1000 miles from new. Even had a holder for a bottle of oil . Sump capacity about 3L.

That genuinely was in the design wasn't it? Didn't they inject some of the oil into the combustion chamber to help lubricate everything?

 

[Steve1]

They're not gaslighting me (or at least, they're not succeeding) - as I said, I'm under no illusions that any measurable oil consumption in a modern engine is indicative of something wrong. Unfortunately though (unless anyone has evidence to the contrary), by publishing "acceptable specifications" of the oil consumption, they give themselves a get-out clause should anyone complain.

Obviously the 1L per 1000 miles would indicate a serious problem and is the default threshold for a problem from most manufacturers which seems wrong to me too. But ... the "any measurable oil consumption in a modern engine is indicative of something wrong" is also a bit extreme. Maybe when really new, but all of the diesel cars I have owned mostly at 7 to 9 years old will use a measurable amount of oil. Maybe not enough (if you are not a persistent oil checker like me) that you would have to top up before the next service but definitely measurable. That has included VWs a Renault, a Hyundai and Audi and a BMW. I think in general the turbos let a bit past their seals when working hard after a few years, but certainly no major fault.

 

[Hawthorn37]

Just caught up on the previous posts. I agree with others that 18,000 km “mileage” (is there a better term for km ?) is way too low for engine wear, and indicates to me either, early life catastrophic failure, or VW’s diagnosis is wrong. I’d also fully agree that a second opinion is a good idea. I’m not sure which country you’re in, but help with the assessment, you might obtain an engine oil analysis, unless you’ve already had this. The analysis would pick up the level of metals contamination etc.

Given the low usage of the van, I can better understand your desire to keep the van and repair it, as it’s basically a new van. We’ve had our van 2 years, and already done about the same distance!

 

[lohr500]

With a whopping consumption rate of 9.7 liters per 100km, it looks as if the problem has yet to be solved.

“Based on Mazda's claimed petrol and electric driving range figures, the MX-30's rotary engine is consuming 9.7 litres per 100km – or double what the 2.0-litre mild-hybrid version of the MX-30 claims to use in mixed driving.”

2023 Mazda MX-30 R-EV range-extender hybrid: Rotary engine returns!

Mazda has revealed its first rotary-engined car in a decade – a city SUV with plug in hybrid power.

www.drive.com.au

We are getting off topic a bit here but my post was simply to correct your statement that "Today no manufacturer will touch a rotary". This is not the case as Mazda are using one in the MX30REV.

 

[Corradobrit]

We are getting off topic a bit here but my post was simply to correct your statement that "Today no manufacturer will touch a rotary". This is not the case as Mazda are using one in the MX30REV.

Not a fan....

 

[camperlifenorth]

As @Steve1 said above. You need a 2nd opinion.
Most 180 engines that suffer from high oil use due to failure of the EGR cooler have a milage of about 60,000 +/- miles ( 96,000 km )
The turbo oil seals at least need to be checked, compression check and an engine oil analysis for high levels of aluminium .

This doesn’t sound right, not at 18,000 km.

All right, thank you for giving your thought on this! We will make sure to take the van somewhere else and have it checked properly before changing anything.

 

[CALI FATE]

I would find a garage locally that specialises in T5 / T6 vans - if you look / search on Facebook you will find a local VW scene

 

[Doug Curran]

Very true, hence my big list of caveats! VW say though that up to a 1 litre per 1000 miles (or km?) or something is "normal" apparently - that always used to get my goat. I've never actually had a VAG engine that has used any oil, but that's how I think it should be - if it's consuming up to a litre per whatever, that's suggesting something is poorly made somewhere!

Chasing lower emissions and fuel consumption has led to a number of competing strategies that in turn lead to further complications. Smaller displacement engines require that the engine produce more power per cubic inch. internal pressures rise, along with heat and stress on components. Lower viscosity oils provide less internal resistance, but in turn lead to oil consumption. I agree that the idea of burning a litre of oil per 1000 miles seems to point to something amiss. It also leads to carboned-up piston rings, leading to cylinder wall scoring which leads to... A vicious circle of reduced service and high costs.

 

[DaveB]

I had a RX8. Twin roter Wankel engine.
Fantastic drive and covered with warning stickers to check oil level. Would use 1L / 1000 miles from new. Even had a holder for a bottle of oil . Sump capacity about 3L.

I sooooo miss my RX-8 best car ever to drive and I could fit my bike in the boot

 

[Mr B]

I had a diesel vRS and used a rebuilt engine after it totaled itself when the cambelt snapped on the motorway.

Exactly the same engine as most of the current VW engines. 2.0 turbo. Just configured for the Skoda.

It cost £4500 all in. Find a good garage and shop around for an engine.

Preferably one with a warranty.

VW are taking the micky and your van is not going to be sold so you don't need to worry about resale value.

Also that current engine has not been driven enough at only 18k over 9 years.

All the seals, rubbers and other ancillary components need lubrication. They can deteriorate if the engine isn't used. A low mileage engine on a older car is not the deal it seems but that's beside the point now.

Good luck.

 

[Mr B]

Get your Engine Reconditioned for your Volkswagen Transporter

Volkswagen transporter engines reconditioned, re-manufactured, rebuilt.

engineengineering.co.uk

 

[Perfectos]

Thanks all for providing your input, highly appreciated! As an addition, if it evokes any other ideas or recommendations, or could be of help for someone else reading this, here's the verdict from VW, sorry if some parts of it are poorly translated.

Diagnosis: gf/charged battery

• Reading event memory, error codes on unreasonable signal exhaust gas recirculation
• Measure reference voltage, sensor = ok
• Measure voltage within sensor = not ok
• Defective EGR valve - replacement complete exhaust cooler needed
• Switch f bonnet contact greased, but replacement is required
• Particle filter clogged due to high oil consumption
• Probably defective engine due to high oil consumption

Oil consumption test recommended.

However, we cannot proceeded with the oil consumption test, since it's not possible to drive the car as the engine light is on (due to the issues above), so I have asked VW what they recommend as a next step now.

• Reading event memory, error codes on unreasonable signal exhaust gas recirculation
• - indicates EGR valve Fault see below !
• What fault codes are showing up ?

• Measure reference voltage, sensor = ok
• Measure voltage within sensor = not ok

• Defective EGR valve - replacement complete exhaust cooler needed - likely Blocked from low mileage short runs - can be flushed up out for a few hundred Euros then check flow & operation!

• Switch f bonnet contact greased, but replacement is required - bonnet switch provides feedback to BCM and can throw up an engine light on the Dash if faulty !

• Particle filter clogged due to high oil consumption -
• Could be clogged from short journeys and a blocked / low flow EGR = 18k kilometres = Force a Regen to clear the DPF (dealer / indie can do it at cost or Carista /VCDS etc !

• “Probably defective engine due to high oil consumption “
• If calsberg did garages !!!!
• Probably is not a diagnosis it’s a get out of jail free card !
  = Does this all sound a bit suspect on a very low mileage engine ?

edit; does your van have Add Blue ? (I suspect not)

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Chasing lower emissions and fuel consumption has led to a number of competing strategies that in turn lead to further complications. Smaller displacement engines require that the engine produce more power per cubic inch. internal pressures rise, along with heat and stress on components. Lower viscosity oils provide less internal resistance, but in turn lead to oil consumption. I agree that the idea of burning a litre of oil per 1000 miles seems to point to something amiss. It also leads to carboned-up piston rings, leading to cylinder wall scoring which leads to... A vicious circle of reduced service and high costs.

VW lead the industry when it comes to emissions reporting.

 

[Perfectos]

Sure - VW lead the industry when it comes to emissions.

Scandalous!

 

[Perfectos]

• Reading event memory, error codes on unreasonable signal exhaust gas recirculation
• - indicates EGR valve Fault see below !
• What fault codes are showing up ?

• Measure reference voltage, sensor = ok
• Measure voltage within sensor = not ok

• Defective EGR valve - replacement complete exhaust cooler needed - likely Blocked from low mileage short runs - can be flushed up out for a few hundred Euros then check flow & operation!

• Switch f bonnet contact greased, but replacement is required - bonnet switch provides feedback to BCM and can throw up an engine light on the Dash if faulty !

• Particle filter clogged due to high oil consumption -
• Could be clogged from short journeys and a blocked / low flow EGR = 18k kilometres = Force a Regen to clear the DPF (dealer / indie can do it at cost or Carista /VCDS etc !

• “Probably defective engine due to high oil consumption “
• If calsberg did garages !!!!
• Probably is not a diagnosis it’s a get out of jail free card !
  = Does this all sound a bit suspect on a very low mileage engine ?

edit; does your van have Add Blue ? (I suspect not)

Have a look at this thread it may help explain what gets blocked with the EGR and how it can be cleaned out very cheaply.

edit for some reason I cannot post the link use the search function

egr-insufficient-flow-£1700

 

[Perfectos]

A ‘school / rugby dad’ that i know worked for Ford. Ford sacked lots of highly experienced technical staff as they accused them of being incompetentant of not being able to reproduce the same performance / emissions as
a VW engine.

...they said that the figures were impossible!

And Laterly VW agreed whole heartedly, but only when someone else proved beyond doubt that VW had been lying and cheating customers for years ! Mmmmmh

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Have a look at this thread it may help explain what gets blocked with the EGR and how it can be cleaned out very cheaply.

My old neighbour works in the Aston Martin factory on the production line /test driver.

He and alot of his workmates own older VW Golfs as hobby cars - they all swear that mr
Muscle oven cleaner followed by a motorway blast is the best for unclogging an EGR.

 

[da_murphster]

Yea I've read about them and seen them be recommended in several threads, unfortunately the van is not in UK ...

So in the UK you can get a new engine fitted for under £6k. There must be an equivalent in the UK, or I’d rent a trailer and bring it over here.

You will not get a vw warranty for that as you don’t fit the egr. Some garages will offer you their own warranty. (Vw only gives engine warranty if you buy new egr as well at £1k+.

These engines are great when running without an egr.

All the talk of breaking the car or reconditioned engines on here is not the way to go!

 

[derek_j_buchanan]

Were it mine I would take it to my trusted local garage and get them to do the necessary work. On this forum this 180 engine business is overstated (In my opinion and experience). There are very few facts ever quoted as to the scale of the issue (number of 180’s produced number with a problem , age, mileage…..) and I have had 2x180s (7 and 10 years each and 30k miles) and never had an issue. The key thing I always say is service it traditionally not on the long service shite which is VWs way of giving you free services. The issues causing the problem you have would be picked up within the warranty period of a works van. If this was such an issue you would not be able to get aftermarket warranty which you can.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Chasing lower emissions and fuel consumption has led to a number of competing strategies that in turn lead to further complications. Smaller displacement engines require that the engine produce more power per cubic inch. internal pressures rise, along with heat and stress on components. Lower viscosity oils provide less internal resistance, but in turn lead to oil consumption. I agree that the idea of burning a litre of oil per 1000 miles seems to point to something amiss. It also leads to carboned-up piston rings, leading to cylinder wall scoring which leads to... A vicious circle of reduced service and high costs.

Indeed - my Octavia vRS 245 used 0w30 (0w something anyway) oil - it was like water! I was glad it was leased. At least diesel engines have a very minor benefit that the fuel is also slightly lubricating.

The opposite extreme of the modern trend in European (especially) manufacturers to squeeze ever more power per litre out of turbocharged small capacity engines are the old American V8s (and when I say old, I mean 80s/90s) where your 5L would be generating sub-200bhp (and sometimes as little as 140bhp), but those engines could literally run into 7 figure mileages without major work, they were so lowly stressed.

It would be fascinating to see some data on life expectancy (in terms of mileage) of engines over the years and by type; clearly there are all sorts of factors affecting this, but I suspect the peak for modern engine durability might have been the 90s/00s when manufacturing tolerances were getting pretty tight but emissions regulations and fuel consumption weren't having an extreme effect on design.

 

[Gavin Fleming]

Firstly, been there and know how you feel.
If there is a problem, an engine rebuild is the answer. Reputable rebuilders are well aware of the bi-turbo issues and can fix them.
Is the oil consumption really really excessive? I calculated that even topping up every refuel I could still do over 250,000km and still not get to cost of rebuild.
So I kept topping up and it kept on going. If engine is done, keeping on driving isn’t going to worsen your situation. I also kept on with yearly or less oil and filter changes. Then a new garage did an engine flush as part of the oil change. And cured it!
Maybe I’m lucky, but give it a go.

 

[da_murphster]

Firstly, been there and know how you feel.
If there is a problem, an engine rebuild is the answer. Reputable rebuilders are well aware of the bi-turbo issues and can fix them.
Is the oil consumption really really excessive? I calculated that even topping up every refuel I could still do over 250,000km and still not get to cost of rebuild.
So I kept topping up and it kept on going. If engine is done, keeping on driving isn’t going to worsen your situation. I also kept on with yearly or less oil and filter changes. Then a new garage did an engine flush as part of the oil change. And cured it!
Maybe I’m lucky, but give it a go.

This would only be true if you block off and map out the EGR (to stop any more debris from going into the engine.). Then several quick oil changes and motor on.

If its already using oil the damage is done and you will likely have low compression.

Honestly, once the egr is removed these are great engines when healthy - far nicer to drive than the 150 T6 I have now.

There are 2 well know specialists here who will put in new engines for sensible £££ - there must be an equivalent out there? Try the local T5 Facebook group?

BTW by the time you've bought injectors etc you are as well to buy a new crate engine rather than rebuild.

There is a FB group completely focused on the 180 cfca!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/122196238114704

But its really hard to get them to accept new people!

 

[Norfolk Jim]

The whole thing about a custom remap is just that; it can be customised. Stock engine maps are intended to hit specific criteria the manufacturer wants to see achieved, usually around emissions and peak power figures (to please those that just look at a single number).

From a performance perspective, the shape and total area under the power curve is far more relevant than the peak number.

I second that - best car I had for that was a Saab 9-5 Aero. Even the 2.3 HPT petrol at stock at 250hp it had huge torque that came in very low and stayed for ages. Useless at traffic lights but once into 2nd gear and turbo on full song from around 1500 revs it would pull like a train; something a lad in a Civic Type R found out! I had mine tuned by a race company to 300hp and 450nm low down torque and bilstein suspension. Wonderful car easy to drive and happily overtake in 5th gear (was only 5 speed manual) out accelerating most exotic cars. We chickened out on German autobahn at 157 mph and it was still pulling..................so as said a custom map giving low down torque is best

 

[RockinNRollin]

I second that - best car I had for that was a Saab 9-5 Aero. Even the 2.3 HPT petrol at stock at 250hp it had huge torque that came in very low and stayed for ages. Useless at traffic lights but once into 2nd gear and turbo on full song from around 1500 revs it would pull like a train; something a lad in a Civic Type R found out! I had mine tuned by a race company to 300hp and 450nm low down torque and bilstein suspension. Wonderful car easy to drive and happily overtake in 5th gear (was only 5 speed manual) out accelerating most exotic cars. We chickened out on German autobahn at 157 mph and it was still pulling..................so as said a custom map giving low down torque is best

Although low down torque usually requires high psi and injector capacity to match, so it can be swings and roundabouts! My old Octavia 110TDI was remapped to 159bhp, but it put out something daft like 350ft lbs torque and the power curve was such it developed at least 150bhp between just over 2krpm and the 5krpm red line (which it happily and strongly pulled to), with the peak at 4.5krpm. Peak figure didn't sound brilliant, but the flexibility of that power curve meant it was deceptively quick. Took a few custom maps, a turbo upgrade and an injector upgrade to get it to that stage though!

 

[Norfolk Jim]

Although low down torque usually requires high psi and injector capacity to match, so it can be swings and roundabouts! My old Octavia 110TDI was remapped to 159bhp, but it put out something daft like 350ft lbs torque and the power curve was such it developed at least 150bhp between just over 2krpm and the 5krpm red line (which it happily and strongly pulled to), with the peak at 4.5krpm. Peak figure didn't sound brilliant, but the flexibility of that power curve meant it was deceptively quick. Took a few custom maps, a turbo upgrade and an injector upgrade to get it to that stage though!

Abbott Racing had perfected everything; they raced them and had for a while the fastest naturally aspirated lap time of the Ring in a Saab 900. Car was fantastic and when Mistubishi TD04 was on full song car was a projectile with a thump in the back of your seat but all driveable. Conversly I had a 9-3 Aero TTiD which was a 1.9 diesel twin turbo with 180hp which was incredibly quick but progressive without the thump in the back. Very quick to 60 but the 9-5 was different with v quick 0-100 same as the 9-3 did 0-60........ah days gone by