Supermarket fuel for 4 years and runs like dream

[Bramco]

The saving (at less than 5p per litre) using the cheaper suppliers of fuel over that period has saved me well in excess of £2250 so as far as I am concerned supermarkets are the places to purchase my fuel.

Exactly. It's like the debates about which wax to use when you wash the van - just get on with it and don't take in all these tales that originated from someone's uncle twice removed who once had a ....

And btw the best wax is road dirt.... It shows you are using your van instead of treating it like a precious ornament.

That should move the discussion on from electricity suppliers at least....

 

[pjm-84]

Have also done a few above ground tanks for transport facilities. One looked like a rocket. A little unsightly on a petrol station even if we ignore the additional land required

 

[Legin]

Above ground though! Less corrosive environment, considerably easier to maintain.

Nope, They are a nightmare to maintain. Floating roof seals and drains. Annular corrosion. Sinkage. Underfloor corrosion. Internal corrosion. You name it. Been doing it for 30 years btw !

 

[Velma's Dad]

I have used supermarket diesel in other cars for decades without any issues however that was mainly before they started adding ethanol.

However, since buying our first Cali in 2015 I have nearly always used BP Ultimate diesel. Why ?

1. My understanding is that Ethanol can rot seals and may cause premature failure.
2. My understanding is that apparently most diesel brands contains up to 7% ethanol.
3. My understanding is that BP Ultimate contains none.
4. My understanding is that the additive package that BP and others premium brands use helps to keep clean the system.

I also read in one of the hand books that VW ask you not to used Bio fuel so I have tried to comply.

Now whether I am right or not is open to debate. I don't have the answers. However, I have based my fuel buying policy on my limited research and limited it is. There seems to be lots of debate and opinion but little actual scientific evidence. If anyone can point to a more definitive answer then I may change my mind.

Sorry slightly off topic. I don't wish to restart the super fuel/supermarket fuel debate but if people are suffering issues could this be relevant?

Back onto topic (kind of)... Borris you are correct of course that ethanol can, accordingly to a lot of fairly reliable sources, damage seals in older vehicles which have rubber components that pre-date the move to blended fuels. I suspect you're particularly aware of this issue as I know you have classic/pre-war cars (as do I).

Actually, the biofuel component in diesel isn't ethanol, but fatty acid methyl esters (FAME). That is alleged to damage old-school components etc in high concentrations but I'm not clear how badly, compared to the ethanol (in petrol) issue.

Some manufacturers say "no biofuels" in their manuals/stickers but I gather that actually means don't use high concentration biodiesel, ie 20%+, up to 80% in some markets, which isn't available in the UK anyway. I've not seen anything about not using UK/European B7 (ie 7%) blends.

In any case, I suspect we actually have no choice. I must say I doubt that BP can now state that Ultimate Diesel never contains any biofuel (although I'd be interested in any recent statements they've actually made). Indeed, the EN 590 spec for UK diesel allows for up to 7% biofuel. On a classic car forum I follow, I read (but can't validate) that Shell admitted in response to a written query that their their V-Power contains "up to the allowed 5% maximum" of biofuel, but this varies according to season". I think those are weasel words and I'm betting that it's because all the current base fuel stocks, whether petrol or diesel, have the biofuel component blended in at refinery stage - ie while the fuel is still generic - so the brand owners are unable to control the level of bio (up to the 7% level) in what they're selling, even if they wanted to.

Probably more info than you wanted, I got on a roll, but feel free to ignore!

 

[pjm-84]

Nope, They are a nightmare to maintain. Floating roof seals and drains. Annular corrosion. Sinkage. Underfloor corrosion. Internal corrosion. You name it. Been doing it for 30 years btw !

Just imagine if they were below ground!

 

[Legin]

Just imagine if they were below ground!

They used to be in the war years and riveted construction. They dont last much different above ground. Your typical 30 x9 tank suffers with saddle corrosion above ground. The thing is these sort of tanks are not very thick.

 

[Legin]

Back onto topic (kind of)... Borris you are correct of course that ethanol can, accordingly to a lot of fairly reliable sources, damage seals in older vehicles which have rubber components that pre-date the move to blended fuels. I suspect you're particularly aware of this issue as I know you have classic/pre-war cars (as do I).

Actually, the biofuel component in diesel isn't ethanol, but fatty acid methyl esters (FAME). That is alleged to damage old-school components etc in high concentrations but I'm not clear how badly, compared to the ethanol (in petrol) issue.

Some manufacturers say "no biofuels" in their manuals/stickers but I gather that actually means don't use high concentration biodiesel, ie 20%+, up to 80% in some markets, which isn't available in the UK anyway. I've not seen anything about not using UK/European B7 (ie 7%) blends.

In any case, I suspect we actually have no choice. I must say I doubt that BP can now state that Ultimate Diesel never contains any biofuel (although I'd be interested in any recent statements they've actually made). Indeed, the EN 590 spec for UK diesel allows for up to 7% biofuel. On a classic car forum I follow, I read (but can't validate) that Shell admitted in response to a written query that their their V-Power contains "up to the allowed 5% maximum" of biofuel, but this varies according to season". I think those are weasel words and I'm betting that it's because all the current base fuel stocks, whether petrol or diesel, have the biofuel component blended in at refinery stage - ie while the fuel is still generic - so the brand owners are unable to control the level of bio (up to the 7% level) in what they're selling, even if they wanted to.

Probably more info than you wanted, I got on a roll, but feel free to ignore!

The Bioethanol is blended at the delivery gantry and also the same point the additives join the party. Prior to this the fuel is generic as you describe it.
The issue with corrosion is in two parts. Synthetics damage and thought to kick in around 10% but it also affects ferrous metals potentially causing cracking if not stress relieved. Again the extent of this was not fully understood in practical terms upon bio fuel introduction. Almost certainly better understood now. Bioethanol tanks are very different design to prevent water ingress.
Bio fuel regulation stipulates total biofuel content across combined diesel and petrol so oil companies can play tunes across the two pools or at least they could until I left the industry 3 yrs ago.
The issue with FAME is much more the promotion of bio growth so water ingress into your diesel tank left stagnant is really really bad news.
Keep in mind that unblended petrol is octane light (in the 80,s) so ethanol and other components get blended in to spice things up. This cocktail can be achieve in many ways so this changes all the time and certainly seasonally as the vapour pressure limits are met by adding different components such as Butane in winter for instance. Same reason Butane is useless in winter in your camper ! So its true that things vary at the pump for what you may think is the same old base fuel.

 

[Velma's Dad]

The Bioethanol is blended at the delivery gantry and also the same point the additives join the party. Prior to this the fuel is generic as you describe it.
The issue with corrosion is in two parts. Synthetics damage and thought to kick in around 10% but it also affects ferrous metals potentially causing cracking if not stress relieved. Again the extent of this was not fully understood in practical terms upon bio fuel introduction. Almost certainly better understood now. Bioethanol tanks are very different design to prevent water ingress.
Bio fuel regulation stipulates total biofuel content across combined diesel and petrol so oil companies can play tunes across the two pools or at least they could until I left the industry 3 yrs ago.
The issue with FAME is much more the promotion of bio growth so water ingress into your diesel tank left stagnant is really really bad news.
Keep in mind that unblended petrol is octane light (in the 80,s) so ethanol and other components get blended in to spice things up. This cocktail can be achieve in many ways so this changes all the time and certainly seasonally as the vapour pressure limits are met by adding different components such as Butane in winter for instance. Same reason Butane is useless in winter in your camper ! So its true that things vary at the pump for what you may think is the same old base fuel.

Thanks, that's informative.

Still not clear which (if any) of the brands don't have any biodiesel added. Although I'm not personally concerned about having B7 in my Cali.

(Re petrol, that's more of an issue for me - I want RON97+ in one of my classic cars that has a stage 2 tune, but because they've tended used ethanol as an octane enhancer, that means running the gauntlet of bioethanol in the fuel lines etc. Also fuel staleness problems due to low mileage sometimes. Sorry that bit's off topic.).

 

[Legin]

I dont know if any of the brands have no biodiesel Im afraid , been away to long. My guess is none but its a guess.
In respect of your classics. The protection grade was always the high octane grade, in other words without any ethanol. I again dont know the answer for certain these days but the best chance of lowest ethanol would be something like Shell high vpower.
So somewhat illogically the ethanol is almost certainly in the lower ron pump fuel and less likely the higher octane. So my advice is dont put in 95 thinking its avoiding ethanol it is quite the reverse.
The octane number is boosted with more platformate ( the best of the best) on the top quality fuels ( normally).

 

[Borris]

Back onto topic (kind of)... Borris you are correct of course that ethanol can, accordingly to a lot of fairly reliable sources, damage seals in older vehicles which have rubber components that pre-date the move to blended fuels. I suspect you're particularly aware of this issue as I know you have classic/pre-war cars (as do I).

Actually, the biofuel component in diesel isn't ethanol, but fatty acid methyl esters (FAME). That is alleged to damage old-school components etc in high concentrations but I'm not clear how badly, compared to the ethanol (in petrol) issue.

Some manufacturers say "no biofuels" in their manuals/stickers but I gather that actually means don't use high concentration biodiesel, ie 20%+, up to 80% in some markets, which isn't available in the UK anyway. I've not seen anything about not using UK/European B7 (ie 7%) blends.

In any case, I suspect we actually have no choice. I must say I doubt that BP can now state that Ultimate Diesel never contains any biofuel (although I'd be interested in any recent statements they've actually made). Indeed, the EN 590 spec for UK diesel allows for up to 7% biofuel. On a classic car forum I follow, I read (but can't validate) that Shell admitted in response to a written query that their their V-Power contains "up to the allowed 5% maximum" of biofuel, but this varies according to season". I think those are weasel words and I'm betting that it's because all the current base fuel stocks, whether petrol or diesel, have the biofuel component blended in at refinery stage - ie while the fuel is still generic - so the brand owners are unable to control the level of bio (up to the 7% level) in what they're selling, even if they wanted to.

Probably more info than you wanted, I got on a roll, but feel free to ignore!

You are probably right in that most of my reluctance to use fuels containing biofuel stems from my now dated research regarding older vehicles. BP certainly used to claim that their Ultimate fuels contained no Ethanol which would be ideal for that application. I have just had a quick poke around on t'interweb found this BP blurb dated 2010, stating just that. However, I am not sure if this info is still current or if it is still the same for the UK market. It certainly was not so long ago.

It also has the highest octane rating of any of their fuels. This high octane rating is of little use in a vehicle made in 1909 as better performance isn't to be encouraged. As long as is chugs along OK without causing damage to the engine then that's perfect.

Regarding diesel, I did read about the FAME element of diesel some time ago. Clearly it didn't imprint well enough for me to remember it or make much of an impression. The only thing that did stick was the fact that FAME may also cause damage. However, I fear that you are right in that all diesel now has it whether we like it or not. It would be interesting to know it there are any long term effects of this bio fuel content on Diesel engines.

 

[69 Campers]

Personally always used a branded fuel never Supermarkets, always maintained that you get better mpg on a branded fuel over Supermarket and healthier engine in the long run.

 

[pjm-84]

Oh no...... that's blown it. The supermarket people will be banging on your door.

 

[GrannyJen]

I have noticed that when using premium diesel my auxiliary heater runs hotter and quieter,

 

[GregW]

I had to replace the engine of my VW Golf TDI around 5 years ago following a fill with ‘contaminated’ fuel from a Tesco service station. Probably >1:1000 chance, but I won’t use supermarkets anymore. Tesco refused to accept liability and my insurance company said they wouldn’t cover it, so I was on the hook for the costs.

 

[motacyclist]

Nope, They are a nightmare to maintain. Floating roof seals and drains. Annular corrosion. Sinkage. Underfloor corrosion. Internal corrosion. You name it. Been doing it for 30 years btw !

Sounds from your posts you must be in a similar sector as us! Part of our work involves storage tank inspections to EEMUA 159 .... etc etc

 

[Legin]

Sounds from your posts you must be in a similar sector as us! Part of our work involves storage tank inspections to EEMUA 159 .... etc etc

Does indeed. Type 1 authority.

 

[Adamvanman]

I'm now up to 5 years on mostly Asda fuel, no problems at all and I am saving about £3 per fill up, this certainly mounts up over course of five years

 

[Wildcamper]

Have used supermarket fuel for more years than I wish to remember. My BWW 5 Series E34 model did 500,000 miles on it. No problems at all, in the end the body work failed not the engine. In my vans after 60,000 combined, T5 and T6, no problems and great mpg ~ 37 mpg yearly average. Nothing bad with supermarket fuel!

 

[crazygrandad]

We have too, van has never missed a beat, we only use branded fuel as last resort. It's funny reading about all these people that use branded fuel, even funnier the ones that use the premium fuels

 

[66tim99]

We have too, van has never missed a beat, we only use branded fuel as last resort. It's funny reading about all these people that use branded fuel, even funnier the ones that use the premium fuels

Worth filling up with premium diesel sometimes?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fuel/...ing-more-for-premium-diesel-or-premium-petrol

 

[motacyclist]

Only filled the Cali up once since last March, so not much saving to be made. Nevertheless, I went to Costco

 

[subthree]

Have used supermarket fuel for more years than I wish to remember. My BWW 5 Series E34 model did 500,000 miles on it. No problems at all, in the end the body work failed not the engine. In my vans after 60,000 combined, T5 and T6, no problems and great mpg ~ 37 mpg yearly average. Nothing bad with supermarket fuel!

500,000 miles? Wow! Genuine question, how did you clock up that many miles?

 

[westfalia]

500,000 miles? Wow! Genuine question, how did you clock up that many miles?

If i was to guess, it would be by driving

 

[subthree]

If i was to guess, it would be by driving

That's excellent, hadn't crossed my mind.

 

[T6 CFO]

Worth filling up with premium diesel sometimes?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fuel/...ing-more-for-premium-diesel-or-premium-petrol

I agree.

I wouldn’t worry so much with older diesels but the modern ones with complicated emissions benefit from premium fuel occasionally according to a trusted mechanic.
For a few quid every now and again it seems advice worth taking.



Mike