VW California vs Conversions

[JollyGoodShow]

(I feel I've learned a lot from this forum when researching a campervan. We all have subtly different reasons for wanting a campervan, and all have different preferences, so one person's experience shouldn't carry much weight. However, I found reading what other people had learned very useful, so I thought I would share what I feel I learned. It really is a personal opinion and I have no expertise, so take it all with a pinch of salt.)

VW California vs. conversions vs. "California Concept" vs. Marco Polo

I was initially drawn to converted VW Transporter campervans. I liked the ability to choose colours (I think the VW Ocean grey interior is a bit overwhelmingly... grey), and at first I was excited by things like solar, lithium batteries and high power inverters that could power induction hobs, microwaves and electric kettles. I think the Reimo Variotech 3000 bench is probably a better product than the California bench. You can get leather upholstery and even upgraded driving seats.

We went to the NEC campervan show and saw lots of makers. I was pretty disappointed by most of them; the fit and finish varied, and only a few converters made vans that I thought were "better" than the California.

Three things finally swayed me towards the California Ocean. Firstly, I read somewhere that "buy new, buy a California; buy used, buy a conversion". Certainly when I look at second hand prices, even before Covid it seems to me that the Californias depreciate significantly less than the conversions.

Secondly, the conversions seem to be (at least, at the moment) significantly more expensive than Californias. (Used California prices shown on Auto Trader make no sense to me; several used vans are on sale for £10k+ more than I have just paid for a new one, and it's November and cold; I don't get why there would be such a premium.)

Thirdly, when we came to use a California, the advantages of the conversions didn't seem to be significant for me in relation to how we plan to use the van. I do prefer induction, but the gas works really well. I'd prefer a front-opening fridge but the top opener works well, and may have some advantages. It doesn't bother me that the door is on the traffic side. I like the idea of solar but it can be easily retro-fitted and I'm not sure, the way we'll use the van, that it's necessary. We can recover the seats with leather if we want to.

I have a feeling times will be lean at the moment for converters because the California pricing is keen. I imagine that will change when VW stop production of the California. Perhaps life as a converter is cyclical, and this is a down cycle.

The new "California Concept" looks great, and could make Transporter-related Californias look dated and cause them to depreciate faster. On the other hand, the new one could start at an even higher price point and the older vehicles might hold their value better. I don't know. The key point for me is that it will be a year before the new vehicles are around and I don't want to wait. Anyway, I've watched the videos and I'm not convinced the new Concept will be that much better, and maybe it will be worse in some ways.

I sat in a used Mercedes Marco Polo. It's purely taste, but I think part of the power of the VW-based campervans is their historical associations.

So, my learning points, personal as they are, and for what they are worth, are:

• Californias depreciate more slowly than conversions
• Conversions are (at the moment) more expensive than Californias
• The points of difference on conversions probably aren't that important to me
• The advantages of next year's new model are uncertain and for me not worth the wait; I can buy one "next time" if they are significantly better
• The Marco Polo (or the Nugget or the Westfalia Club Joker) are all great, but they're not VW campervans

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I tend to agree with all your points. Having owned classic splits & bays and rented them now I have a family, I decided a modern camper was the only practical option.

Given the deeper conversion market, we rented one, which was fine.

After renting a California, the aftermarket conversions looked poorly finished and compromised.

The Multivan/T7 concept looks great. Personally I would love induction hob for a number of reasons.

Who knows where the price point will be a launch. I suppose economy/finance rates will be the significant driver.

My instinct is, by launch, the economy will have recovered signifcantly, rates will be down and waiting times will be up. Meaning the current 0% and discounts for the end of T6.1 will look cheap.

The counter argument is that post-Covid campervan/off-grid/staycation boom will be a distant memory and campervan market new & secondhand will plummet.

At 0%, its a risk worth taking.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

An extremely insightful and well written thread so thank you! I agree with your point entirely, and was the reason I too ordered a Cali over the Westfalia Club Joker City which was a close run second place.

The only thing that could throw a spanner in the works is how things pan out with the bellows issue (sorry to mention the elephant in the room!) but if this isn't sorted sufficiently then the nearly new market won't even compete against the T7 Cali. But who knows that may even be a deliberate ploy

 

[Lambeth Cali]

A good post. I think the one thing that you left out is the engine. What will power a medium sized van in the near future?

I have a 2008 5 cylinder diesel SE that fails all emissions rules but currently that just means I pay £12.50 to drive it. In the future will it be banned, will I pay a fee to go into cities or will there be an exemption for campervans? I'm hoping for the latter. Hopefully something like classic car tax exemptions.

I’m sticking with my van for now. I would love it if retrofitting electric became a big thing but I doubt it will. Will I have to buy a hybrid California? My retirement planning includes camping but doesn’t include buying a new California. In 2035 I’ll be 64yrs old so don’t want to have to hand over my keys.

Perhaps I could tow my i3 behind the Cali? Lols

 

[JollyGoodShow]

A good post. I think the one thing that you left out is the engine. What will power a medium sized van in the near future?

I have a 2008 5 cylinder diesel SE that fails all emissions rules but currently that just means I pay £12.50 to drive it. In the future will it be banned, will I pay a fee to go into cities or will there be an exemption for campervans? I'm hoping for the latter. Hopefully something like classic car tax exemptions.

I’m sticking with my van for now. I would love it if retrofitting electric became a big thing but I doubt it will. Will I have to buy a hybrid California? My retirement planning includes camping but doesn’t include buying a new California. In 2035 I’ll be 64yrs old so don’t want to have to hand over my keys.

Perhaps I could tow my i3 behind the Cali? Lols

I thought about this. The hybrid engine option in the Multivan, assuming that ends up as the base vehicle for the next generation of Californias, will help. 2035 is when they will stop building new ICE vehicles, so it’s likely that diesels will be around for longer. I am assuming I will change the van after say 6 years and we’ll know a lot more then.

I also doubt retrofitting will be an option, but I don’t think it is necessary to junk all diesels by 2035 to achieve Net Zero Carbon by 2050.

I’m much more worried about my gas central heating! My house really isn’t suitable for heat pumps (on current technology) and the carbon footprint of my house is much higher than my California will ever be.

I’m chilled about obsolescence risk, leaky roof risk, residual value risk, etc. I think I understand those risks and if I weighted them more heavily I’d never have a campervan. I’m naturally risk averse but sometimes I just need to breathe deeply and go for it.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

You will love it. We bought our 2008 model in 2009 when my wife was pregnant. Our daughter is 13 now. I make a photo album after every summer.

We have 2 T25s on our road. Approximately 33 years old. I'm expecting to still own ours in another 20 years or so.

 

[Celia Vanchez]

(I feel I've learned a lot from this forum when researching a campervan. We all have subtly different reasons for wanting a campervan, and all have different preferences, so one person's experience shouldn't carry much weight. However, I found reading what other people had learned very useful, so I thought I would share what I feel I learned. It really is a personal opinion and I have no expertise, so take it all with a pinch of salt.)

VW California vs. conversions vs. "California Concept" vs. Marco Polo

I was initially drawn to converted VW Transporter campervans. I liked the ability to choose colours (I think the VW Ocean grey interior is a bit overwhelmingly... grey), and at first I was excited by things like solar, lithium batteries and high power inverters that could power induction hobs, microwaves and electric kettles. I think the Reimo Variotech 3000 bench is probably a better product than the California bench. You can get leather upholstery and even upgraded driving seats.

We went to the NEC campervan show and saw lots of makers. I was pretty disappointed by most of them; the fit and finish varied, and only a few converters made vans that I thought were "better" than the California.

Three things finally swayed me towards the California Ocean. Firstly, I read somewhere that "buy new, buy a California; buy used, buy a conversion". Certainly when I look at second hand prices, even before Covid it seems to me that the Californias depreciate significantly less than the conversions.

Secondly, the conversions seem to be (at least, at the moment) significantly more expensive than Californias. (Used California prices shown on Auto Trader make no sense to me; several used vans are on sale for £10k+ more than I have just paid for a new one, and it's November and cold; I don't get why there would be such a premium.)

Thirdly, when we came to use a California, the advantages of the conversions didn't seem to be significant for me in relation to how we plan to use the van. I do prefer induction, but the gas works really well. I'd prefer a front-opening fridge but the top opener works well, and may have some advantages. It doesn't bother me that the door is on the traffic side. I like the idea of solar but it can be easily retro-fitted and I'm not sure, the way we'll use the van, that it's necessary. We can recover the seats with leather if we want to.

I have a feeling times will be lean at the moment for converters because the California pricing is keen. I imagine that will change when VW stop production of the California. Perhaps life as a converter is cyclical, and this is a down cycle.

The new "California Concept" looks great, and could make Transporter-related Californias look dated and cause them to depreciate faster. On the other hand, the new one could start at an even higher price point and the older vehicles might hold their value better. I don't know. The key point for me is that it will be a year before the new vehicles are around and I don't want to wait. Anyway, I've watched the videos and I'm not convinced the new Concept will be that much better, and maybe it will be worse in some ways.

I sat in a used Mercedes Marco Polo. It's purely taste, but I think part of the power of the VW-based campervans is their historical associations.

So, my learning points, personal as they are, and for what they are worth, are:

• Californias depreciate more slowly than conversions
• Conversions are (at the moment) more expensive than Californias
• The points of difference on conversions probably aren't that important to me
• The advantages of next year's new model are uncertain and for me not worth the wait; I can buy one "next time" if they are significantly better
• The Marco Polo (or the Nugget or the Westfalia Club Joker) are all great, but they're not VW campervans

A very thoughtful post. We bought our Coast last year and love. We bought it as a complete integrated solution rather than conversion by third party. If I could change one thing it would be to replace the gas burner with induction hob. Perhaps there is a company out there doing such conversions already?

 

[WelshGas]

A very thoughtful post. We bought our Coast last year and love. We bought it as a complete integrated solution rather than conversion by third party. If I could change one thing it would be to replace the gas burner with induction hob. Perhaps there is a company out there doing such conversions already?

Easily done. Just get a table top induction hob to sit over gas hobs and plug into kitchen mains socket. Easy if you are always on EHU, much more involved if not using EHU.
If you made a permanent change to induction then might make it difficult to sell on.

electriQ 2 Zone Portable Induction Hob eiq2indport | Appliances Direct

Buy electriQ 2 Zone Portable Induction Hob eiq2indport from Appliances Direct - the UK's leading online appliance specialist

www.appliancesdirect.co.uk

 

[BikerGran]

When I decided to get a campervan I asked advice from my daughter who has a converted Mercedes Sprinter, which she chose because she has particular requirements. She's just bought a newer van and is having that converted for the same reason, but she advised me that a conversion always ends up more expensive than buying a factory built campervan.
So I bought a 7 year old Cali and 9 years later I'm still very happy with it.
I'd say if you decide to buy used, go for a low mileage older van so the money advantage is really worth it! My van will still be worth a fair amount when I'm too old to enjoy it any more (not happening yet!)

 

[derek_j_buchanan]

Cali every time. Much more space more integrated furniture and clever design saving space. Also lower tax as passenger vehicle.

 

[CaliforniaSeb]

Great post. For us, as newbies, it was the plethora of options on the conversions that put us off. We We really wondered why the Cali didn't have hot water? The conversion did. But we now realise that it doesn't need it. VW have thought of pretty much everything. I have to say though, the quality of the Autohaus conversions looked great at their factory. We were just swamped with having so many choices.

Also, if anything goes wrong, inside or outside, we can rely on VW to fix it. It is their responsibility. No quibbling if it is the converter or VW who are responsible.

Correction: Excepting the bellows of course!

 

[fatbob]

Long term VW conversion owner here. I do agree with all the comments in the 1st post. Luckily the VW community is a broad church. Two points for me were LWB based conversion and the option to own an individual vehicle. Mine had a previous life as cake delivery van converted in 2016. It was a shade cheaper than an equivalent California. Another plus is willingness to mess with it in later life. So Lithium batter conversion done, Audio conversion (super woofers under the seats) done. Lowering, remap, new alloys. Big butterfly decals on the side. All done. And more too follow. Most keep the Cali's to factory standard (they will be worth more this way). Conversions in some eyes have more character. Not many conversions that are better quality than a Cali. I think a Westfalia Kepler 6 is better (its LWB). 14" is a lot of extra internal space right where you need it.

 

[JollyGoodShow]

A very thoughtful post. We bought our Coast last year and love. We bought it as a complete integrated solution rather than conversion by third party. If I could change one thing it would be to replace the gas burner with induction hob. Perhaps there is a company out there doing such conversions already?

I too would like induction, and it can be done with a big enough power bank. The power banks that have 2000w inverters, like the Anker Solix, are really big and heavy, and my current thinking is that the gas is good enough for me.

 

[JollyGoodShow]

Long term VW conversion owner here. I do agree with all the comments in the 1st post. Luckily the VW community is a broad church. Two points for me were LWB based conversion and the option to own an individual vehicle. Mine had a previous life as cake delivery van converted in 2016. It was a shade cheaper than an equivalent California. Another plus is willingness to mess with it in later life. So Lithium batter conversion done, Audio conversion (super woofers under the seats) done. Lowering, remap, new alloys. Big butterfly decals on the side. All done. And more too follow. Most keep the Cali's to factory standard (they will be worth more this way). Conversions in some eyes have more character. Not many conversions that are better quality than a Cali. I think a Westfalia Kepler 6 is better (its LWB). 14" is a lot of extra internal space right where you need it.

All this makes sense to me. I liked the idea of having all these choices and it’s true it doesn’t make financial sense to modify heavily a California.

I seriously considered getting a conversion and then modifying it a lot, but when I thought about it, there wasn’t much that I didn’t like about the Ocean, and I didn’t like the RIB bench that is used in most conversions, so that settled it.

As you say, a broad church, and healthy for it.

 

[JollyGoodShow]

Cali every time. Much more space more integrated furniture and clever design saving space. Also lower tax as passenger vehicle.

Is that right? I didn’t know that. (Need to look it up.)

 

[Kayleigh]

Is that right? I didn’t know that. (Need to look it up.)

California Ocean and Beach Camper are taxed as a motorhome, but the Tour has to suffer the luxury car tax. Breakeven is about 11 years

 

[Markgray6.1ocean]

California easier to insure plus can do motorway limit, converted van ….. that’s just what is is

 

[Wildcamper]

Interesting. I have a conversion and, for us, as good as the California is it did not work for us.
Ours is an Autohaus conversion from new. 2018 150DSG LWB Highline van.
Taxed as a Diesel Car and can legally do motorway speed limits - same as California and same tax bracket.
For us the California was too cramped so we went LWB. Parking is not a problem
We don't like pop tops so went High Top and very warm in the winter - we accept the hight compromise.
Having hot water is a big plus for us - use it every day. Can be heated via EHU or from gas if off grid.
Underslung gas tank saves a lot of space and is very much lower cost than CampingGaz - yes expensive to install.
Cabin heating also fuelled by gas - LPG.
Great to have the option of a hot shower when off grid - use a popup tent for showering.
New van came with full VW warranty, including extended warranty.
Conversion with 3 year Warranty. Any problems we have had have been very easily resolved, unusually with one phone call to Autohaus. If something suddenly stops working (as it did for us) a quick call to Autohaus and the problem was identified over the phone and was sent an email with the fix within 1 hour.
Insurance - no problem. Various companies used usually about £300/year - slightly more.
Price - not much in it.
After 4 years (this year) Autohaus offered to buy ours back at close to the price we paid.

Summary: Californias are excellent if that set up works for you.
Conversions can be excellent (not all are excellent!!) if one does one's homework.
Tax bracket same as California.
Diesel Car on V5.
Hardly any depreciation on ours so far but a poor conversion will fall quickly.

Everyone's decision is personal to them and if that decision is right for them then the decision is a good one.

 

[JollyGoodShow]

I’ve just been looking up road tax. It looks like it’s £325 for a new Ocean. If that’s right, that’s okay. It looks like it was higher in the past. The VED rates are baffling.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I’ve just been looking up road tax. It looks like it’s £325 for a new Ocean. If that’s right, that’s okay. It looks like it was higher in the past. The VED rates are baffling.

That’s right.

 

[Celia Vanchez]

Easily done. Just get a table top induction hob to sit over gas hobs and plug into kitchen mains socket. Easy if you are always on EHU, much more involved if not using EHU.
If you made a permanent change to induction then might make it difficult to sell on.

electriQ 2 Zone Portable Induction Hob eiq2indport | Appliances Direct

Buy electriQ 2 Zone Portable Induction Hob eiq2indport from Appliances Direct - the UK's leading online appliance specialist

www.appliancesdirect.co.uk

Thank you for your comments. What a simple but genius solution!

 

[chris151151]

A very thoughtful post. We bought our Coast last year and love. We bought it as a complete integrated solution rather than conversion by third party. If I could change one thing it would be to replace the gas burner with induction hob. Perhaps there is a company out there doing such conversions already?

Agreed. My Coast is 30 months old and on 55000 miles. I could not find a conversion that came close in terms of thoughtful detailing, materials and build quality. I will keep it for as long as I can drive, even after my granddaughter has long outgrown "van picnics".

 

[Peter Bucknell]

Easily done. Just get a table top induction hob to sit over gas hobs and plug into kitchen mains socket. Easy if you are always on EHU, much more involved if not using EHU.
If you made a permanent change to induction then might make it difficult to sell on.

electriQ 2 Zone Portable Induction Hob eiq2indport | Appliances Direct

Buy electriQ 2 Zone Portable Induction Hob eiq2indport from Appliances Direct - the UK's leading online appliance specialist

www.appliancesdirect.co.uk

Would this work on most campsite EHC supplies - at 2800W would it not trip out the circuit breaker?

 

[WelshGas]

Would this work on most campsite EHC supplies - at 2800W would it not trip out the circuit breaker?

Most U.K. campsites are 10 to 16 amps. European can be down to 6 amps.

The link I posted was just an example. I would suggest a maximum 2000w for the U.K.
This is a twin rated at 1600w, 800w each side.

Vango Sizzle Double Induction Cooker

The first double induction hob designed specifically for camping, the Sizzle Double offers a reliable camping cooker, which will only be compatible with steel bottom pans.

www.outdoorworlddirect.co.uk

 

[JuanVecino2023]

(I feel I've learned a lot from this forum when researching a campervan. We all have subtly different reasons for wanting a campervan, and all have different preferences, so one person's experience shouldn't carry much weight. However, I found reading what other people had learned very useful, so I thought I would share what I feel I learned. It really is a personal opinion and I have no expertise, so take it all with a pinch of salt.)

VW California vs. conversions vs. "California Concept" vs. Marco Polo

I was initially drawn to converted VW Transporter campervans. I liked the ability to choose colours (I think the VW Ocean grey interior is a bit overwhelmingly... grey), and at first I was excited by things like solar, lithium batteries and high power inverters that could power induction hobs, microwaves and electric kettles. I think the Reimo Variotech 3000 bench is probably a better product than the California bench. You can get leather upholstery and even upgraded driving seats.

We went to the NEC campervan show and saw lots of makers. I was pretty disappointed by most of them; the fit and finish varied, and only a few converters made vans that I thought were "better" than the California.

Three things finally swayed me towards the California Ocean. Firstly, I read somewhere that "buy new, buy a California; buy used, buy a conversion". Certainly when I look at second hand prices, even before Covid it seems to me that the Californias depreciate significantly less than the conversions.

Secondly, the conversions seem to be (at least, at the moment) significantly more expensive than Californias. (Used California prices shown on Auto Trader make no sense to me; several used vans are on sale for £10k+ more than I have just paid for a new one, and it's November and cold; I don't get why there would be such a premium.)

Thirdly, when we came to use a California, the advantages of the conversions didn't seem to be significant for me in relation to how we plan to use the van. I do prefer induction, but the gas works really well. I'd prefer a front-opening fridge but the top opener works well, and may have some advantages. It doesn't bother me that the door is on the traffic side. I like the idea of solar but it can be easily retro-fitted and I'm not sure, the way we'll use the van, that it's necessary. We can recover the seats with leather if we want to.

I have a feeling times will be lean at the moment for converters because the California pricing is keen. I imagine that will change when VW stop production of the California. Perhaps life as a converter is cyclical, and this is a down cycle.

The new "California Concept" looks great, and could make Transporter-related Californias look dated and cause them to depreciate faster. On the other hand, the new one could start at an even higher price point and the older vehicles might hold their value better. I don't know. The key point for me is that it will be a year before the new vehicles are around and I don't want to wait. Anyway, I've watched the videos and I'm not convinced the new Concept will be that much better, and maybe it will be worse in some ways.

I sat in a used Mercedes Marco Polo. It's purely taste, but I think part of the power of the VW-based campervans is their historical associations.

So, my learning points, personal as they are, and for what they are worth, are:

• Californias depreciate more slowly than conversions
• Conversions are (at the moment) more expensive than Californias
• The points of difference on conversions probably aren't that important to me
• The advantages of next year's new model are uncertain and for me not worth the wait; I can buy one "next time" if they are significantly better
• The Marco Polo (or the Nugget or the Westfalia Club Joker) are all great, but they're not VW campervans

I’ve been giving a bit more thought on the impact of a T7/Multivan based California on T6 based used prices.

I own a PHEV family estate now. I’m not convinced of the use case of hybrids, beyond BIK tax relief for company cars. Which, given most hybrids cost upward of 25%, sometimes 50% more than the equivalent ICE is less valuable than at first glance.

More to the point, on any journey longer than ca 60 miles, the battery will be mostly flat, charging only on regen. Which means you are lugging around a redundant heavy battery & electric engine.

Theoretical MPG on my 330e is ~ 65MPG. However once running on ICE it’s ~ 25MPG.

PHEV works brilliantly for short local commutes < 25 miles. (It also works brilliantly for government net zero goals…)

It’s terrible on long distance journeys. Which is what most campervans do. I don’t intend to use a California to grab a pint of milk.

Re prices for T7/Multivan - my gut instinct is that given delivery will likely be at best Q2 2025, the economy will be stronger, rates will be stable or lower.

I guesstimate list price will start with an £80k+. Current nearly new/new run-out model Calis may look cheap with strong residuals.

All conjecture!