Which Electric Bike?

[GrannyJen]

Hello Annik,
Can I ask did you eventually end buying Kalkhoff Electric bikes?

If I may explain, I am not a cyclist and much prefer a long walk. However, I have an issue with one knee which if you excuse the pun, is very long standing. I like to go out for a long walk each day if circumstances allows however I often have restless nights afterwards with said knee grumbling away. Accordingly, I often resort to slapping on pain relief gel and occasionally taking a couple of paracetamol as a result.

Anyway, a friend recently said that an electric bike may be better for the knees and so long story short, I have reluctantly started to explore the options which quite frankly, I've found mind boggling. Without looking at too many options, I came across the Kalkhoff range which I like the look of very much indeed. I don't want to go off road and will be using the bike (if purchased) almost exclusively on the quiet single track lanes in my part of Kent. I won't be wanting to take it away in the Cali either. Yours truly will be wanting nothing to do with lycra and would prefer the upright riding style at a steady rather than spirited pace. Some of the bikes in the Kalkhoff range seem ideal but being expensive, I would like as much advice as possible before deciding to give one a go. If I do go ahead I will endevour to find somewhere that will let me borrow one for an afternoon before deciding.

If you did purchase, can I ask how have you got on with your Kalkoff bikes? Your opinion on the good and bad points would be very welcome indeed.

If anyone else has any comments please feel free to pitch in.

Borris

My Sister has arthritic knees. She had a long-held dream of walking from one side of Britain to the other, Ness point, the furthest East, to St Davids head, the furthest west. Arthritis made walking impossible, so we decided to cycle it despite neither of us ever cycling further than the corner shop. (more info on website, click on my signature link).

We opted for the Specialised Como 4. It has a step through frame to make getting on and off easy. It is a beach cruiser, high handlebars, low saddle, giving an upright cycle position with the ability to drop the feet, or at least a good selection of toes, to the floor without getting off the saddle, important for a clumsy old bat like me.

We cannot cycle in anything below 7 degrees C as we have found it makes Jo's knees so stiff that getting on and off is difficult, possibly putting her in danger of a fall, so since Christmas our cycling has been limited.

Despite that and never having cycled seriously before, we managed a 22 mile trip up to the top of the South Downs, 900 feet climbing in total, maximum grade of 13%, with comfort. Pic of Jo happily smiling. Normal cycling on the flat we happily bowl along at around 14 mph. In those conditions we are getting around 60 miles range.

Definitely not built for speed, a hybrid so happy on gravel and reasonable unpaved tracks, but not a mountain bike, no suspension to the front forks. We anticipate days of 40 miles maximum so battery range is ideal for us. The upright posture suits my fused L4 and L5, no back ache at all.

I will finish this short summary by saying getting the bikes were a game changer. Suddenly a whole new world has opened up for us, brilliant travels planned after this one where we can cycle to points of interest instead of packing up the van and driving there. The best money Ive spent since buying a Cali.

Edit:

And just a little bit more: In that picture is a woman having a brilliant day out, a beautiful day, cold, bright, day in beautiful national park surroundings getting gentle exercise for 3-4 hours and being in a place she would never have been able to get to without an electric bike ..... excluding mobility scooters and land rovers. A total game-changer for Jo.

 

[Borris]

Hey Borris.
Kalkhoff do great bikes, Moustache look pretty cool too Moustache Lundi, Cube have some great bikes also using the Bosch system or something like @GrannyJen has just purchased the Specialized.

Personally I would look for a bike with the Bosch Gen 4 motor. It’s absolutely brilliant.
We have a Trek with this motor and the Cubes have the Gen 3. No issues/failures with any of these Bosch motors and the assist has been brilliant.

If you have knee issues, look for a low step frame for ease of mounting and dis-mounting.

There’s a company called Fully Charged in London that have good knowledge on the electric bikes, otherwise have a look around your local bike shop...

Hope this helps.

Excellent advice Ssd. Thank you.

I'll take a look at Fully Charged. Also I believe the Kalkhoff bikes have the Bosch motor system which looks promising. I must do more research on these units. Even the motor system employed and where on the bike it's mounted seems to be another mine field.

 

[Borris]

I don't know if you use a knee brace but if you don't, consider it. I wear one of these whenever I do something strenuous like hiking, work in garden etc. Helps stabilise the joint and avoids the irritation and flare ups you describe.
View attachment 74739

Thanks. Yes I do have a pair of those chaps even though it's only my left knee that really plays up. I agree they do help. I find that any twisting motion is best avoided.

 

[Borris]

My wife has just taken delivery of a Specialized - she is really pleased with it - 90NM of torque would you believe! Actually, initial impression is that it’s almost too much, but that’s coming from a family that has always used regular bikes, so I guess we’ll adapt. Then again, she’s not done any long trips yet, and when you are at the back end of a 50k, faced with a tough climb, I guess she’ll be happy to have the extra available. Also, pretty pricy at 4K Euro, but we are fortunate to benefit from a 800 Euro subsidy from the government.

I have a Cube on order - but it’s been that way since September! LONG delays unless you go to a big dealer - apparently they corner the market.

So my advice, whatever you choose, is to get something from stock, so as to be able to enjoy it in the Spring.

Thanks. Again excellent advice. Wherever I get it from I am hoping they will let me take it out for a spin first. We shall see.

 

[Borris]

Borris

My Sister has arthritic knees. She had a long-held dream of walking from one side of Britain to the other, Ness point, the furthest East, to St Davids head, the furthest west. Arthritis made walking impossible, so we decided to cycle it despite neither of us ever cycling further than the corner shop. (more info on website, click on my signature link).

We opted for the Specialised Como 4. It has a step through frame to make getting on and off easy. It is a beach cruiser, high handlebars, low saddle, giving an upright cycle position with the ability to drop the feet, or at least a good selection of toes, to the floor without getting off the saddle, important for a clumsy old bat like me.

We cannot cycle in anything below 7 degrees C as we have found it makes Jo's knees so stiff that getting on and off is difficult, possibly putting her in danger of a fall, so since Christmas our cycling has been limited.

Despite that and never having cycled seriously before, we managed a 22 mile trip up to the top of the South Downs, 900 feet climbing in total, maximum grade of 13%, with comfort. Pic of Jo happily smiling. Normal cycling on the flat we happily bowl along at around 14 mph. In those conditions we are getting around 60 miles range.

Definitely not built for speed, a hybrid so happy on gravel and reasonable unpaved tracks, but not a mountain bike, no suspension to the front forks. We anticipate days of 40 miles maximum so battery range is ideal for us. The upright posture suits my fused L4 and L5, no back ache at all.

I will finish this short summary by saying getting the bikes were a game changer. Suddenly a whole new world has opened up for us, brilliant travels planned after this one where we can cycle to points of interest instead of packing up the van and driving there. The best money Ive spent since buying a Cali.

Edit:

And just a little bit more: In that picture is a woman having a brilliant day out, a beautiful day, cold, bright, day in beautiful national park surroundings getting gentle exercise for 3-4 hours and being in a place she would never have been able to get to without an electric bike ..... excluding mobility scooters and land rovers. A total game-changer for Jo.



View attachment 74743

Thanks GJ,
That's very heartening especially as my main concern is: will an electric bike be a real game changer as you have said or merely turn out to be an expensive white elephant that doesn't really help?

One of my favourite pastimes has been to take the train or bus somewhere and then walk back as the crow flies using an OS map and following foot paths. But at 67, with an increasingly dodgy knee, I feel it's probably time to explore another "enjoyable" form of exercise even if it means sticking to the back roads instead.

I assume that your sisters knees have coped well with electric cycling with not too many issues?

 

[HectorPascal]

After dithering for two years we have decided to get a couple of electric bikes, when we first started looking we had our hearts set on kalkhoff bikes but over the past 18 months there seems to be dozens more companies now making electric bikes so now we are confronted with too much choice.

Is there anything else worth considering compared to kalkhoff?

How are people's batteries holding out that are already long term owners of e bikes ?

We dithered too. If dithering was an olympic sport, my wife and I would have at least one gong between us. We prefer to call it 'considered deliberation' though and last year, in February, we were about to order a set of 'his 'n hers' and the virus put paid to all that. Even now we will probably allow things to settle into some sort of normal before we start our serious dithering again.

Meantime, I suppose, the battery-boffins will have been improving things. The whole package of leccy bikes and a comfy Cali does seem to be a match made in heaven though so looking forward to owning some.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Excellent advice Ssd. Thank you.

I'll take a look at Fully Charged. Also I believe the Kalkhoff bikes have the Bosch motor system which looks promising. I must do more research on these units. Even the motor system employed and where on the bike it's mounted seems to be another mine field.

I think it’s generally accept now, that the mid drive systems are the way forward. As the weight of the motor is central and low down.

I had a hub drive Kalkhoff for a while. Great little bike until you get a flat tyre on the hub wheel...
I believe the latest Kalkhoff are Bosch mid drives

You can also get Belt drives too with internal hubs for shifting. I decided to stick with rear derailleur system to keep the bike simple. If I have any shifting issues, it’s something I can resolve myself or obtain parts from my LBS.

 

[Ting Tong]

Any manufacturer that fits Bosch or Yamaha mid drives will be decent and you shouldn’t be wooed by the kalkhoff brand. We’ve just each got a Cube Kathmandu which are excellent but you still have to pedal. The Raleigh Centros and Haibike Sduro are fairly decent... use code CAMC2021 for discount on both online. Stock levels will be your biggest issue at the moment.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Any manufacturer that fits Bosch or Yamaha mid drives will be decent and you shouldn’t be wooed by the kalkhoff brand. We’ve just each got a Cube Kathmandu which are excellent but you still have to pedal. The Raleigh Centros and Haibike Sduro are fairly decent... use code CAMC2021 for discount on both online. Stock levels will be your biggest issue at the moment.

Cube bikes are excellent value.
I was tempted by the Reise & Muller cycles. But couldn’t justify the expense.
Nice bikes...

 

[Lightning]

it’s also worth noting that all the legal motors are limited to 250 Watts. They are all the same in terms of power, so battery capacity is more interesting to compare.

 

[Rololux]

it’s also worth noting that all the legal motors are limited to 250 Watts. They are all the same in terms of power, so battery capacity is more interesting to compare.

Agreed, the power is the same on most motors, but the torque varies a lot. Torque is what gets you up hills, so is very important! The latest Bosch motors have up to 85 NM of torque - which is massive, but some other 250Watt motors only have 35 NM or so. Best to check.

 

[Borris]

I think it’s generally accept now, that the mid drive systems are the way forward. As the weight of the motor is central and low down.

Ok that helps. I don't want to end up buying a Betamax!

 

[Borris]

Any manufacturer that fits Bosch or Yamaha mid drives will be decent and you shouldn’t be wooed by the kalkhoff brand. We’ve just each got a Cube Kathmandu which are excellent but you still have to pedal. The Raleigh Centros and Haibike Sduro are fairly decent... use code CAMC2021 for discount on both online. Stock levels will be your biggest issue at the moment.

Thanks WW. I'll take a look at the Cube.

I had assumed that pedaling is an essential requirement with all electric bikes otherwise why not just buy a Honda Super Cub?

Thanks also for the advice on other makes and the discount code which could be very useful. In terms of build quality though, which brand would you recommend? Any decision will be made on the basis of suitability first, quality second and cost last of all.

 

[GrannyJen]

Thanks GJ,
That's very heartening especially as my main concern is: will an electric bike be a real game changer as you have said or merely turn out to be an expensive white elephant that doesn't really help?

One of my favourite pastimes has been to take the train or bus somewhere and then walk back as the crow flies using an OS map and following foot paths. But at 67, with an increasingly dodgy knee, I feel it's probably time to explore another "enjoyable" form of exercise even if it means sticking to the back roads instead.

I assume that your sisters knees have coped well with electric cycling with not too many issues?

Borris

Jo's knees if anything has improved. according to both her PT and the orthopaedic surgeon regular flexing of the joint against moderate resistance with little weight on it is an ideal exercise. She does a lot of strengthening exercises anyway on the muscles surrounding the knee and the e-bike is proving to be an ideal companion.

If you want to speak to her then happy to let you have our phone number. If you ever come about an hour westward, when allowed, then you will be welcome to try one of our bikes along the level coastal roads of West Sussex.

 

[Borris]

Borris

Jo's knees if anything has improved. according to both her PT and the orthopaedic surgeon regular flexing of the joint against moderate resistance with little weight on it is an ideal exercise. She does a lot of strengthening exercises anyway on the muscles surrounding the knee and the e-bike is proving to be an ideal companion.

If you want to speak to her then happy to let you have our phone number. If you ever come about an hour westward, when allowed, then you will be welcome to try one of our bikes along the level coastal roads of West Sussex.

That's very good news for Jo. I hope her Ebike continues to help her improve.

Thanks for the kind offer to speak to your sister and to test out one of your bikes. However, I don't think that will be necessary as I have more or less been convinced that it's the right thing to do. The only question is which make and model to choose? The research and dithering continues but once I've got a short list I must run some examples to ground and test them. One thing I will not be doing is buying blind online.

 

[Rololux]

I also have a Cube Katmandu on order. There are so many bikes out there that it can get really confusing. My thought process was as follows: What is generally considered to be the best drive unit out there? Bosch consistently comes out very well in reviews, so I settled on that. Which manufacturers use Bosch? Well there are loads! Do I want a cheap bike, or top of the range? Well, something in the middle probably. So a quick scan threw up Cube, which also have very good reviews. Looking at the Cube website, I soon realized that there are many many different formats. So, what do I want to do with the bike? For me, no mountain biking, but I wanted something that I can take on roads and also some un-tarmacked paths. So some kind of touring bike fitted the bill. But there are still several variants. So I started looking at features that I considered important. In no particular order, I wanted suspension on the front forks, and preferably on the saddle. I wanted mud guards and a rack. I wanted high torque, so the Bosch CX Gen 4 motor is best for that. I wanted at least 500 wh battery capacity. I know nothing about the various variants of shimano gears and brakes, but generally with these things the more you pay the better they are. So I focused on features and price, and eventually settled on the Katmandu hybrid pro 500.

Also, I considered it important to buy from a local bike shop rather than on-line, as these bikes need servicing. Of course you can do that yourself, but you could also do your Cali serving yourself - but you don't do you? And there is no price advantage buying on-line at the moment, as bikes are so popular, they don't need to discount, at least here.

Hope that helps in some way!

 

[Borris]

I also have a Cube Katmandu on order. There are so many bikes out there that it can get really confusing. My thought process was as follows: What is generally considered to be the best drive unit out there? Bosch consistently comes out very well in reviews, so I settled on that. Which manufacturers use Bosch? Well there are loads! Do I want a cheap bike, or top of the range? Well, something in the middle probably. So a quick scan threw up Cube, which also have very good reviews. Looking at the Cube website, I soon realized that there are many many different formats. So, what do I want to do with the bike? For me, no mountain biking, but I wanted something that I can take on roads and also some un-tarmacked paths. So some kind or touring bike fitted the bill. But there are still several variants. So I started looking at features that I considered important. In no particular order, I wanted suspension on the front forks, and preferably on the saddle. I wanted mud guards and a rack. I wanted high torque, so the Bosch CX Gen 4 motor is best for that. I wanted at least 500 wh battery capacity. I know nothing about the various variants of shimano gears and brakes, but generally with these things the more you pay the better they are. So I focused on features and price, and eventually settled on the Katmandu hybrid pro 500.

Also, I considered it important to buy from a local bike shop rather than on-line, as these bikes need servicing. Of course you can do that yourself, but you could also do your Cali serving yourself - but you don't do you? And there is no price advantage buying on-line at the moment, as bikes are so popular, they don't need to discount, at least here.

Hope that helps in some way!

Actually that helps alot. My thought process so far has been very similar and I concur that the whole Ebike issue is very confusing. My requirements are broadly similar to yours in that I don't want to go off roading or mountain biking, perish the thought, but may want/need to use un-tarmacked paths. However, I mainly want to use the back lanes of Kent.

We previously had a pair of Bromtons which I found were a reasonable compromise for use with the Cali but Mrs B couldn't get on with hers at all so reluctantly, we sold them. This time I have no plans to take an electric bike away with us but merely use it in Kent to get exercise.

The suspension aspect is important as we both found the previous bikes uncomfortable to ride. However, the purchase of two fantastic Brookes sprung saddles partially sorted that out. Any additional suspension would be very welcome though. Whether Mrs B wants an E bike will I suspect, depend very much on how I get on with mine.

However, the main thing with an E bike is obviously the power assistance and your comments about the Bosch motor and levels of torque are useful. Like all things electric the range is also an important aspect. How realistic are the makers claims on range? I know it is a variable depending on how much assistance you use but do the batteries last long enough for a good outing? I have read that with the Bosch system, once the batteries run flat they are almost impossible to ride as it's like having the brakes on!

 

[Rololux]

I'm not sure the manufacturers make any firm claims about range, since as you say it totally depends on how much assistance you use, and also whether or not you are going up and down hills. But a 500 wh battery will be plenty for a day's cycling - you will have a useful range of around 100km. Here is a useful site:

eBike range calculator for Bosch drive systems

How many kilometres do the different Bosch eBike batteries last? The Bosch Range Assistant displays how many kilometres your pedelec can travel on a single battery charge.

www.bosch-ebike.com

Of course, the range will decrease as the battery gets older, and they are quite expensive to replace, so good to have some margin from new.

Another point is that there is a battery capacity (and range) indicator, so if you think you're running low, switch to Eco mode to extend the range .

 

[The Merle]

Thanks GJ,
That's very heartening especially as my main concern is: will an electric bike be a real game changer as you have said or merely turn out to be an expensive white elephant that doesn't really help?

One of my favourite pastimes has been to take the train or bus somewhere and then walk back as the crow flies using an OS map and following foot paths. But at 67, with an increasingly dodgy knee, I feel it's probably time to explore another "enjoyable" form of exercise even if it means sticking to the back roads instead.

I assume that your sisters knees have coped well with electric cycling with not too many issues?

Some walking poles may help with the walking

 

[soulstyledevon]

With the Bosch 500wH battery you won’t have any range issues.
I think you can also get a 625 version too.

My 500wH last about 25/30 miles on full turbo. However, I find myself reverting back to eco because I don’t always need the assistance.
Between the two modes I’m easily hitting 50miles plus between charges.

 

[Borris]

I'm not sure the manufacturers make any firm claims about range, since as you say it totally depends on how much assistance you use, and also whether or not you are going up and down hills. But a 500 wh battery will be plenty for a day's cycling - you will have a useful range of around 100km. Here is a useful site:

eBike range calculator for Bosch drive systems

How many kilometres do the different Bosch eBike batteries last? The Bosch Range Assistant displays how many kilometres your pedelec can travel on a single battery charge.

www.bosch-ebike.com

Of course, the range will decrease as the battery gets older, and they are quite expensive to replace, so good to have some margin from new.

Another point is that there is a battery capacity (and range) indicator, so if you think you're running low, switch to Eco mode to extend the range .

Well being old, bald, and over weight, I doubt if I'll be doing anything close to 100kms a day so there should be plenty in reserve.

 

[Borris]

Some walking poles may help with the walking

Yes, we have a pair of those although I prefer using my long and trusty hand cut walking stick.

 

[altvic]

I think it’s generally accept now, that the mid drive systems are the way forward. As the weight of the motor is central and low down.

I had a hub drive Kalkhoff for a while. Great little bike until you get a flat tyre on the hub wheel...
I believe the latest Kalkhoff are Bosch mid drives

You can also get Belt drives too with internal hubs for shifting. I decided to stick with rear derailleur system to keep the bike simple. If I have any shifting issues, it’s something I can resolve myself or obtain parts from my LBS.

Mid-drive systems also have much more milage per battery charge than hub drives. Hub drives are either rear or front wheel and give a feeling of being 'pushed' or 'pulled' along and give a very different experience than the cranked mid-drives. I have a mid-drive and Shimano Steps gear changing that is linked to 8 gears within my rear hub - a click of the handlebar mounted switch changes gears seamlessly to give a brilliant no stress ride. I would not go back to derailleur.
This bloke on YouTube gives very comprehensive reviews of eBikes and worth a view to get familiar with the various connotations available for eBiking (USA based bar many international manufacturers): https://www.youtube.com/c/ElectricBikeReview/videos
and an associated forum: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/

It took me several months to choose. Good luck in your investigations.

 

[Ting Tong]

Thanks WW. I'll take a look at the Cube.

I had assumed that pedaling is an essential requirement with all electric bikes otherwise why not just buy a Honda Super Cub?

Thanks also for the advice on other makes and the discount code which could be very useful. In terms of build quality though, which brand would you recommend? Any decision will be made on the basis of suitability first, quality second and cost last of all.

Thanks WW. I'll take a look at the Cube.

I had assumed that pedaling is an essential requirement with all electric bikes otherwise why not just buy a Honda Super Cub?

Thanks also for the advice on other makes and the discount code which could be very useful. In terms of build quality though, which brand would you recommend? Any decision will be made on the basis of suitability first, quality second and cost last of all.

We went for Cube for all the reasons @Rololux said plus you’re never far from a Cube dealer if anything goes wrong. We got the Kathmandu pro with the 625ah battery. For the price tho, you’d nearly get a new C125 steppie....I was tempted by a Vespa 300gts which fits our box trailer but Mrs ww put her foot down. Maybe next year!

 

[WelshGas]

Yes, we have a pair of those although I prefer using my long and trusty hand cut walking stick.

You could always build/put together your own.?
Mine is now coming upto 7 yrs old and just replaced the crank sensor after getting it water logged in a flood.