Avoiding roof corrosion?

[Perfectos]

Agree see above ."there are 6 separate threads on roof corrosion alone on the first page of threads "

Out of interest do VW get away with doing so little in Germany and have the Germans came up with any good preventive solutions ?

Hi Scoobz1,

The preventative “solution” VW have decided to settle on is the current sticking plaster (clear tape) to three sides of the roof, which obviously and clearly is inadequate to prevent the issue, it merely delays the wider issue long enough to reduce the incidence enough for VW to assume they have carried out remedial measures!

Vw have experimented with customers vans, over a long period of time, trying to come up with a solution to “fix” this issue and prevent it from occurring. None of the measures VW have decided to take, to date, have been successful in resolving this issue that has the potential to affect so many customers and vehicles over a long period of time.

Bearing in mind this is a well documented issue since early production of the T5, VW will be aware of this issue, but fail to provide a fix that would be in the interest of many many loyal customers world wide by removing this issue once one for all !

I believe the German Forum is awash with similar content with regard to the known issue with the roof seal and the wider issues with roof corrosion that is directly linked to the roof seal failure!

perhaps someone whom is on that German board could comment similarly?

 

[ArunAlec]

We took the issue of corrosion on the front box section on our California, which at that time was just being rubbed down and resprayed in the UK, to VW Customer Services, saying it was not a satisfactory fix as the corrosion was originating from within the box section. Their response was that was the recognised official VW procedure. So we escalated it to MD level, using the Forum as a base, and finally got the the approved repair changed to the complete front box section replacement.
We did bring up the issue of the seal, but as we all know, this has not been remedied and it's time that it was, both for owners and VW's sake.
We don't currently own a California, and hence do not have have roof seal problems. Some members have got all the information already collated very well. How about someone else taking it up on behalf of owners using the forum as a platform? We did, and as well as a satisfactory outcome, we got lunch at Milton Keynes and a book on the history of VW Vans! We need this issue putting to bed!

Wonder if the book has been revised with a new edition to include the ”California Roof Saga”.

 

[ArunAlec]

Hi Scoobz1,

The preventative “solution” VW have decided to settle on is the current sticking plaster (clear tape) to three sides of the roof, which obviously and clearly is inadequate to prevent the issue, it merely delays the wider issue long enough to reduce the incidence enough for VW to assume they have carried out remedial measures!

Vw have experimented with customers vans, over a long period of time, trying to come up with a solution to “fix” this issue and prevent it from occurring. None of the measures VW have decided to take, to date, have been successful in resolving this issue that has the potential to affect so many customers and vehicles over a long period of time.

Bearing in mind this is a well documented issue since early production of the T5, VW will be aware of this issue, but fail to provide a fix that would be in the interest of many many loyal customers world wide by removing this issue once one for all !

I believe the German Forum is awash with similar content with regard to the known issue with the roof seal and the wider issues with roof corrosion that is directly linked to the roof seal failure!

perhaps someone whom is on that German board could comment similarly?

Sadly from VW’s perspective the sticking plaster approach seems to work! Despite all us victims being fed up we still go on handing over a pile of cash to buy new Californias. Many replacing older models with new, fully expecting the corrosion to appear.

 

[Perfectos]

Sadly from VW’s perspective the sticking plaster approach seems to work! Despite all us victims being fed up we still go on handing over a pile of cash to buy new Californias. Many replacing older models with new, fully expecting the corrosion to appear.

The specific and real experience of this forum (and other resources) with the tens of thousands of individual posts from loyal customers and the numerous threads regarding the specific & known issue (known by VW since early production of the T5) experienced by an inordinate number of customers world wide, since T5 production commenced, bears real life testimony to support the notion that VW have failed to resolve this issue in the customers best interest and highlights the repeated attempts / experiments VW have made with customers Vans, over the entire production run of the T5 - T6.1, in an attempt to fix this issue, coupled with Workshop action 75A1 issued to the entire dealer network, clearly demonstrates VW have and continue to know the issue exists and and that it has the potential to cause ongoing issues for every Transporter based California VW have produced since the T5 !

It is clear that VW have failed, in every attempt they have undertaken. to fix (remove) this issue fully And in the customers best interest.

VW have merely opted to settled on the current approach, which offers the least cost to VW, and has resulted in another failed attempt to resolve the Known issue Of the faulty / not fit for purpose Roof seal, despite VW clearly and in my opinion blindly, continuing to carry out the failed “fix” on the current T6.1 model.

 

[WelshGas]

What I would like to know is why some are affected and some are not?
What accounts for the difference? Luck, how the vehicle is treated, is it garaged, used all year round?
As the elevating roof composition has not changed and nor has the seal then why the difference.

Mine is a 2014 MY 2015 when the front cap alloy composition changed - still perfect after 7 yrs.
Elevating roof section, no evidence of any bubbles or corrosion, nor any rust staining on the seal.

The vehicle has never been garaged, takes the full force of any westerly gales and we live 5 miles from the coast. So, why am I lucky and others are not?

The only thing I do with the roof, is raise it at the end of the season, clean under the seal, wipe over the seal with a seal conditioner, and clean and polish the roof where the seal sits so it doesn't stick.

 

[SusiBus]

Why VW have not cured the roof seal problem is a bit baffling when it must be costing them a considerable amount of money, but this was exactly the same as the box section issue.
There is a cure out there, and it's not a bit of sticky tape. Some time ago a forum member posted that he had found a company in America that made a seal that had a plastic insert as opposed to a steel one. Whether it was suitable for the California roof I don't think was progressed. Perhaps another cure could be just simply having the steel insert encased in thicker, or a different kind of rubber.
Ideas please on a piece of paper, and send to the MD of VW commercial vehicles.

 

[WelshGas]

Another thing. The California, built by VW was launched in 2003.
Did the models sold between 2003 and 2010 suffer the same problems?

And finally, although there are lots of threads, lots of posts, How many actual vehicles are involved with the threads/posts?

The VW California Forum has some 20,000 or so members probably owning 15,000 VW Californias. Are all 15,000 vehicles affected?

If only 10 to 20% of vehicles come to the attention of VW, because they have the problem, then the present fix is probably cost effective for them.

 

[SusiBus]

Could the cure be as simple as removing the steel insert, and just sticking the rubber seal on at build stage ?

 

[ArunAlec]

Could the cure be as simple as removing the steel insert, and just sticking the rubber seal on at build stage ?

I get the impression VW are too set in their ways and process driven to try anything that radical!

 

[WelshGas]

Could the cure be as simple as removing the steel insert, and just sticking the rubber seal on at build stage ?

It probably is. But making such a seal maybe more problematic.
Another way would be an all rubber seal on the roof itself that the Elevating section sits on when closed and compresses it to form a seal, but then you have the problem of correctly positioning it.

 

[SusiBus]

It probably is. But making such a seal maybe more problematic.
Another way would be an all rubber seal on the roof itself that the Elevating section sits on when closed and compresses it to form a seal, but then you have the problem of correctly positioning it.

I can't see that it would be more problematic to make a seal without a steel insert. It's probably more a mindset that all such seals have always have a steel insert, e.g. around doors.
One simple improvement might be that it was made of stainless steel. No rust, less damage to paintwork or protective tape.

 

[WelshGas]

I can't see that it would be more problematic to make a seal without a steel insert. It's probably more a mindset that all such seals have always have a steel insert, e.g. around doors.
One simple improvement might be that it was made of stainless steel. No rust, less damage to paintwork or protective tape.

Making a "U" shaped seal that would stay on the roof edge, when lifted and after having been compressed by the roof when closed, is a little more involved, I would suggest, than just making a simple seal. Also, the seal can stick to the roof due to dirt, tree sap etc: so has to overcome quit a force when the roof is lifted if it is to remain attached to the lifted section rather than being pulled off.
I'm sure it could be done but the roof edge profile would probably have to be changed to accommodate it.
Anyway, I doubt if it would be changed now. The T6.1 is now on countdown to the end of production to be superseded by whatever comes next . With the advent of a EV then they may ditch the present aluminium roof for something lighter, who knows.

 

[Perfectos]

Making a "U" shaped seal that would stay on the roof edge, when lifted and after having been compressed by the roof when closed, is a little more involved, I would suggest, than just making a simple seal. Also, the seal can stick to the roof due to dirt, tree sap etc: so has to overcome quit a force when the roof is lifted if it is to remain attached to the lifted section rather than being pulled off.
I'm sure it could be done but the roof edge profile would probably have to be changed to accommodate it.
Anyway, I doubt if it would be changed now. The T6.1 is now on countdown to the end of production to be superseded by whatever comes next . With the advent of a EV then they may ditch the present aluminium roof for something lighter, who knows.

The use of ferrous metal is the key issue VW should have considered, (but failed) particularly as ferrous metal and Aluminium (dissimilar metals) are historically known to / have a history of use showing a clear correlation to cause potential issues with Bi metallic reaction specifically when used in close proximity! (Particularly in automotive situations)

despite this widely accepted knowledge, VW chose to / opted to design & use a product which has (specifically designed by VW as a unique item), that has specifically introduced a third party issue, due to its intended use / design, that otherwise would not have been be observed or have been apparent if they (VW) had designed or considered the known potential effect or had used appropriate components fit for the task they (VW) had specifically designed / intended to fulfill the intended function: I.e a weather seal capable of doing the job it was designed to do without causing wider issues during its intended use during the lifetime of the vehicle (I.e the design intention/ brief )

 

[WelshGas]

The use of ferrous metal is the key issue VW should have considered, (but failed) particularly as ferrous metal and Aluminium (dissimilar metals) are historically known to / have a history of use showing a clear correlation to cause potential issues with Bi metallic reaction specifically when used in close proximity! (Particularly in automotive situations)

despite this widely accepted knowledge, VW chose to / opted to design & use a product which has (specifically designed by VW as a unique item), that has specifically introduced a third party issue, due to its intended use / design, that otherwise would not have been be observed or have been apparent if they (VW) had designed or considered the known potential effect or had used appropriate components fit for the task they (VW) had specifically designed / intended to fulfill the intended function: I.e a weather seal capable of doing the job it was designed to do without causing wider issues during its intended use during the lifetime of the vehicle (I.e the design intention/ brief )

Land Rover persisted for 50+ years using aluminium and ferrous metals in combination on the Defender and its predecessors so I cannot see VW altering anything until a successor for the Transporter California comes along. They have obviously done the sums and the present system is cost effective for them, if not the customer.

 

[yossarian]

What metal is the front faring section of the roof? It looks like it is electrically bonded to the steel structure?

 

[WelshGas]

What metal is the front faring section of the roof? It looks like it is electrically bonded to the steel structure?

It is an aluminium alloy, a 2 piece structure.

roof frame reinforcement. roof frame seal VW CAMPMOB. (TYP2/TRANSP./LT)

Parts for unit roof frame reinforcement. roof frame seal VW CAMPMOB. (TYP2/TRANSP./LT)

www.ilcats.ru

 

[yossarian]

The impressed current rabbit hole lead me to this thought:

Given that the roof is necessarily isolated from the steel structure, a conductive path between +12v and the roof has the potential to cause corrosion. Has this ever been diagnosed as a cause?

It's the type of fault that would blow a fuse elsewhere on the vehicle. There must be some non zero number of Californias exhibiting this problem.

 

[Scoobz1]

What I would like to know is why some are affected and some are not?
What accounts for the difference? Luck, how the vehicle is treated, is it garaged, used all year round?
As the elevating roof composition has not changed and nor has the seal then why the difference.

Mine is a 2014 MY 2015 when the front cap alloy composition changed - still perfect after 7 yrs.
Elevating roof section, no evidence of any bubbles or corrosion, nor any rust staining on the seal.

The vehicle has never been garaged, takes the full force of any westerly gales and we live 5 miles from the coast. So, why am I lucky and others are not?

The only thing I do with the roof, is raise it at the end of the season, clean under the seal, wipe over the seal with a seal conditioner, and clean and polish the roof where the seal sits so it doesn't stick.

Welsh gas - do you actually remove the seal (in whole or bit by bit as you clean it) and out of interest what seal conditioner and polish do you use ?
Thanks
Scoobz

 

[WelshGas]

Welsh gas - do you actually remove the seal (in whole or bit by bit as you clean it) and out of interest what seal conditioner and polish do you use ?
Thanks
Scoobz

I use Autoglym Polish or Autoglym Ceramic Polish, and Gummy Pflege Stiff for the seal.

My theory, not proven, is that the seal can be damaged by sticking to the roof surround, when the roof is lifted the seal is pulled down and when the roof is lowered the seal is pushed back up, thus moving the seal up and down. I just clean and recondition the seal on back and sides section by section. The front section is just wiped over with the seal reconditioner as it has a different profile and clamps against a rubber seal across the roof which is also cleaned and reconditioned.
That's what I do at least once or twice a year. Others may disagree. The van also lives outside exposed to the elements from all directions.

 

[Perfectos]

Welsh gas - do you actually remove the seal (in whole or bit by bit as you clean it) and out of interest what seal conditioner and polish do you use ?
Thanks
Scoobz

Remove carefully In small sections approx 60cm / 2ft at a time,
clean the seal & roof edge, polish roof edge and refit, repeat until the whole seal is done then
Gummi Pflege the whole seal after cleaning (allowing to dry fully before lowering the roof

 

[Scoobz1]

Welsh Gas sounds a very good and plausible explanation. I was also amazed by how dirty the seals and roof channels gets with even very limited use.

Think I will adopt the same approach as outlined by you and Perfectos and might even given it a spray over with ACF50 https://www.eliseparts.com/shop/corrosion-inhibitors-lubricant/acf-50-anti-corrosion-spray/or Corrosion block https://www.eliseparts.com/shop/corrosion-inhibitors-lubricant/corrosion-block-spray/ , then wipe the excess off with a clean cloth.

Perfectos did you do what you outlined above prior to spotting the roof corrosion on your roof or is something you subsequently adopted ?

Thanks

Scoobz

 

[Perfectos]

Welsh Gas sounds a very good and plausible explanation. I was also amazed by how dirty the seals and roof channels gets with even very limited use.

Think I will adopt the same approach as outlined by you and Perfectos and might even given it a spray over with ACF50 https://www.eliseparts.com/shop/corrosion-inhibitors-lubricant/acf-50-anti-corrosion-spray/or Corrosion block https://www.eliseparts.com/shop/corrosion-inhibitors-lubricant/corrosion-block-spray/ , then wipe the excess off with a clean cloth.

Perfectos did you do what you outlined above prior to spotting the roof corrosion on your roof or is something you subsequently adopted ?

Thanks

Scoobz

Scoobz

I decided to clean & inspect the seal after one year of ownership.

Having read the horror stories posted by others on this site and having a modicum of experience & understanding of metallurgy I decided to adopt best practice of limit the potential for corrosion that may develop within the seal to be in contact with the roof and therefore have the potential to affect my vans roof if left unchecked.

Edit: I have spotted corrosion in the seal reinforcement all but one time I have remove the seal from new

For context :
1st inspection / clean (1 year from new) & all but one subsequent check have revealed failed & corroded seal, observed at differing locations each time (only one location at a time) which would suggest the issue is not caused by an outside influence such as use of the roof (or lack of it) but instead suggests poor selection of suitable materials / design consideration!

i had my fourth (Yes 4) seal fitted last week
the third seal lasted a whole two weeks before I noticed rust leaching from a small manufacturing fault in the seal, which was visible from ground level without close inspection (in reality the seal was faulty before fitting) !

there appears to be no Rhyme or reason for this issue, particularly as seals appear to fail anywhere, (check posts regarding location of roof corrosion location),
suffice to say the seal is proven to be poorly made for the application is was designed for particulary considering the presence of dissimilar metals (the alum roof) to the metal reinforcement in the seal (ferrous Steel), which is and has been known to be a problem since God was a boy !

I will continue to check the seal periodIcally and carry out cleaning to the roof edge as detailed in various posts and as WG has indicated as best practice in this post.

 

[AlisonM]

I got sent round in circles by VW, not a surprise. We had corrosion where the roof meets the top of metal along the windscreen on our T5.1. We ended up taking it to an old fashioned body shop and they said it was really bad but did a great job. We have put a thin layer of Lanacote between the metals. We intend to reapply regularly. It’s used a lot by boat owners, I don’t expect it to cure the problem but it might slow it down, time will tell.

 

[yossarian]

For reference and to assist others :

Replacement of roof Seal : 2018 van

the dates below are when the work was carried out by the Dealer, not necessarily when the failure was reported.

# 1 (factory fitted seal)
noted as failed Aug19 - rust evident within the seal recess on (first clean / inspection of roof edge & seal) = failure on the rear corner replaced sept 19 - i.e seal #2 fitted:
View attachment 86965

View attachment 86970

#2 dealer fitted: noted as failed Aug 21 rust evident within the seal recess recess on front edge where roof profile blends from lower to upper level. Seal # fitted October 21
View attachment 86966
View attachment 86971
#3 Dealer fitted: Noted as failed Nov 21 - seal rust evident leaching from a small hole in the manufactured joint, front O/s corner. Reported several weeks after fitting of previous failed seal In Oct 21
View attachment 86968
View attachment 86972

View attachment 86969
View attachment 86973

#4 due to be fitted imminently
incidentally the photo above is of the font of the roof with the side tape (factory fitted) in the lower left of the photo. Dealers are instructed to clean the roof edge fully before fit replacement seals !

All failures have been at different points on the seal, the last I belive is purely a manufacturing fault that was not picked up during fitting, but the amount of rust observed leaching is more considerable than the previous two failures.

importantly two have failed on the front of the roof where VW have omitted to fit the remedial “ tape” in an attempt to prevent this issue !

Clearly there is still a major issue with this part and VW have failed to resolve the known issue since production of the T5, it is now being reported on T6.1 models.

I've just had my roof seal off to clean out the accumulated crud and it looks like my seal has an issue. Are you still on seal number 4 @Perfectos ? Any insight?

I also need to replace the bolts on my Roger panel. What do people suggest? Marine stainless?





Late 2021 Ocean.

 

[Cali Phillip]

I would tend to think of A4 (316) stainless bolts and maybe these flange nuts https://u-bolts-r-us.co.uk/125930-flange-nuts, we used those flange nuts to good effect on a mast we had out all winter in Scottish mountains.